Should we go to war?

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PlayboyJoeShmoe

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>>>My prediction is that the war begins next month, I hope it is with a US led coalition outside the UN. <<<

Oh yeah, KICK THE UN OUT OF THE USA!!!! They are just a mouthpiece for all who would like America to be neutered!
 

Max

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Originally posted by Gun Nut:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by darell:
I'm not implying that the pending war is exclusively about oil. But is there anybody who thinks that oil has _nothing_ to do with it? Hope not.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh my goodness, oil has 100% to do with it! How the heck did we get here to begin with?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Explain that rationale!? Of course Saddam would be willing to sell us as much oil as we want to buy. It would give him money to increase his power. As it is, he has been cheating the "oil for food" program by diverting the funds to buy weapons. If we just let Saddam do what he wants in his own country, he'd continue to sell as much oil as he could to increase his wealth and dominance over his neighbors. Cheap oil for us, power for Saddam. What do we possibly gain as far as oil goes by deposing Saddam? We get to spend $100-200 billion on a war, then billions more every year for decades stabilizing the region. We're doing this for oil?

To me, this only about oil insofar as how oil can be used as a weapon. North Korea actually has nuclear weapons (thank you Jimmy Carter), but it doesn't have oil. That's why the country is nearly in collapse, and people are starving over there. On the other hand, Iraq has oil. That means Saddam has a resource to enrich himself, acquire weapons for himself, support terrorists, and intimidate all of his oil-producing neighbors into submission. Why anybody thinks that we should sit on our hands and watch this entirely predictable scenario unfold before our eyes is beyond my comprehension.

Gulf War I was because as Iraq was amassing its troops on the Kuwaiti boarder to settle a century old land dispute, the US saw it on our spy satellites, sent our diplomat to ask Saddam what the scoop was, he told us, and we didn't say NO!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So we were wrong to give Saddam the impression that we wouldn't do anything if he moved to obliterate Kuwait from the map. So why is that an argument not to do what is right afterwards?
 

Greta

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Originally posted by PlayboyJoeShmoe:

Oh yeah, KICK THE UN OUT OF THE USA!!!!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm thinking France is a good place for them. Or maybe Germany? Artar, what do you think? You all want the UN? I hear they can be bought pretty cheap.
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WaltH

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One more thing on the sotu last night. I can't believe we're going to pump $$$ to help the AIDS problem in Africa when we have so many problem in our own country. Homeless people starve, or die because of lack of medical treatment. But we care more about the problems in Africa?...not me.
 

Silviron

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OK, What is the correct word for what I was "accusing" Darell of a while ago: Obtuse or abstruse???

I used to use the word like Sasha and Darell have, but a few years ago someone I respect as a linguist and wordsmith told me that the correct term is abstruse. My dictionary is no help at all in this respect.

Charles B: What the HECK are you talking about? I mean, I think I understand what you are stating (although it somehow surprises me) but I can't figure out why you stated it in this thread or why you would state it in such a fashon.

MicroE: Yeah, Spain has been doing very well the last few weeks; They have been rooting out and arresting LOTS of terrorists, and talking with much more backbone than usual for them and their neighbors.

Sasha, Playboy: Right on! US out of UN, UN out of US. Rather than a body to improve the world as it was intended, it has become an asylum run by the inmates; instead of trying to improve conditions in "third world" countries it is trying to bring "first world" countries down to third world level, and overthrow the sovereignty of the nations that actually fund it and provide the "muscle" for its misguided policies.
 

kev1-1

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It is a strange thing. During my time here on CPF I have been impressed with the general intelligence and manors of the average CPF'er!
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Strangely though, the people posting most frequently in this thread seem to me to be the most uninformed, opinionated characters I have heard of in a long while.
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They are almost a charactered!
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If your argument is strong and true, then you can do just that...argue. You do not need to resort to vulgar insults, and frankly disgusting remarks about some of the darkest moments in human history. Aside from the fact that if you look hard enough, every country has done wrong in the past...it displays the fact that you are not thinking just reacting. No thinking person would want to turn a country of men, women and children into a car park
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. Obviously not every CPF'er conforms to the standards of my opening paragraph!
 

WayneM

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I just found this thread after a short time away from the CPF. A few observations...

Germany - Doesn't want war for several reasons - the world will find out they have been supplying Iraq with raw materials and equipment to manufacture banned weapons. German companies might not get paid the money they are owed for delivering these banned goods. Also, a big interest in Iraqui oil.

France - Ditto. (Actually, if it were possible for France to surrender to Iraq at this time, they would.) Also, extreme jealousy over the fact that the USA is an unchallenged superpower and doesn't care what France thinks.

Russia - Oil money and jealousy.

The UN is simply attempting to stall the conflict until the US is no longer in a position to act. The UN is willing to go along with any charade to keep the status quo. What people here in the US realize, and what has escaped citizens of other countries is that the UN is fast becoming completely insignificant. What else can you say when Libya and Syria lead the Human Rights committee? Who really cares what the UN says? The UN has had over a decade to disarm Saddam, and has not done it. Now it is time for the US to do it - alone if necessary.

The US government has, as its PRIMARY OBLIGATION, a responsibility for protecting the interests of its citizens. These self-interests include protection of the lives and property of our citizens and protection of any vital economic interest.

Don't worry, all you Europeans and self-hating Americans. We will not steal Iraq's oil. We may sell it and use the funds to rebuild Iraq, but it will all be done in a proper manner.

Does this sound selfish to you? Too bad. France and Germany and Russia are looking out for their own self interests, and don't really give a rat's *ss how much it costs the US, either in money or lives.

Sure - everybody wants to get along, but as a great author said, "To thine own self be true."
 

brightnorm

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I am by no means a mindless flag waver and I am not happy with parts of the current administration's agenda, but I consider my personal political feelings to be irrelevant in view of a serious and growing threat to our country's security

One look at North Korea shows why we must deal with Iraq now.

N Korea's nuclear capability and huge standing army makes a US military response extremely problematic. Putting in US ground forces guarantees terrible carnage but not success. We can't use nuclear weapons because of fallout on other nations, although N Korea may not feel similar inhibitions. Economic and political pressure remain our best options, poor though they may be.

This is why we must take advantage of the Iraq window now.

Man's dark side will always make war inevitable.

Brightnorm
 

Anarchocap

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Originally posted by Max:
Originally posted by Gun Nut:
Explain that rationale!?[...]
To me, this only about oil insofar as how oil can be used as a weapon. North Korea actually has nuclear weapons (thank you Jimmy Carter), but it doesn't have oil. That's why the country is nearly in collapse, and people are starving over there. On the other hand, Iraq has oil. That means Saddam has a resource to enrich himself, acquire weapons for himself, support terrorists, and intimidate all of his oil-producing neighbors into submission.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To me, you have pretty much just answered your own question. If there wasn't oil in the region, we just wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

Originally posted by Max:
Why anybody thinks that we should sit on our hands and watch this entirely predictable scenario unfold before our eyes is beyond my comprehension.
[...]
So we were wrong to give Saddam the impression that we wouldn't do anything if he moved to obliterate Kuwait from the map. So why is that an argument not to do what is right afterwards?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, whose job is it to protect the Iranians, Saudis, and Kuwaitis from the Iraqis? Who nominated us the World's Policeman? Why do we have to spend our tax money taken from our labor, and blood from our citizens to protect totalitarian, facsist and generally untrustworthy political regimes that would no sooner turn around and stab us in the back?

In the same token, if we are so worried about the suffering that could happen because of Saddam Hussein, why have we continued to embargo his country? This only impacts his people, who have no control over this dictator. For such compassionate intentions, the United States and the United Nations have starved and caused pain to thousands of Iraqi citizens. We have a torture record as good as Saddam himself.

In more gentlemanly days, before the UN and Governments Gone Wild, if real men had real disagreements that could not be solved, they would resort to a duel.

Saddam himself suggested to President Bush that this whole predicament should be settled this way and he was a willing participant. No one else need to suffer but the loser himself.

A real patriot would have taken him up on the offer and rid us of this jerk. But no, we are such an honorable society, we will instead send hundreds of thousands of our citizens to be shot at, gassed, possibly nuked, and maybe killed so we can secure our own little middle-east oil supply. This is not to even mention what the side spill of combat will do to the surrounding innocent civilians who get caught up in it all.

If you want to get rid of this goof, then by all means, volunteer to go over there on your dime and put a bullet in his brain. But don't steal from the fruits of my labor, then tell me I have to contribute to this nonsense because our government feels like pushing its weight around.

Finally I pose this question to you all. Pretty much, the same case that is being made against Iraq can be made against the US or any other country. How will you all feel when (not if) the UN decides to invade our country and take our soverignty from us because we just made it a legitimate reason?

I mean, after all, we don't always abide by UN resolutions. I can name countless. We are bound to those resolutions as a founding member that sits on the Security Council with veto power. We have weapons of mass destruction and have used them. Aside from Nukes, we have every bio and chem weapon known to man. Even the Antrax scare last year was from our own stock! We have invaded other countries and taken their territories.

What makes you think we are immune or any different from the things Iraq is being charged with right now?!

Like I have said previously, this all seems very hypocritical considering this country was founded on liberty and consent...
 

Silviron

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What makes you think we are immune or any different from the things Iraq is being charged with right now?!

Simple: we have a duly elected government and a system where people who disagree with policy can say so.

Whereas in Iraq, if you disagree with Saddam you die. He has actually and personally shot advisers sitting at his "cabinet meetings" because they dared to disagree with him.

Ditto Kim Jong Il in North Korea.

The difference is that we have a system of checks and balances; They do not.

"We have a torture record as good as Saddam himself."

Oh come on. That is just a ridiculous statement. Certainly there have been some ugly incidents by certain "rogue agents" but when they are caught they are punished. And there have been a very few incidents where people were tortured "with permission" so to speak when the situation is desparate.

But Saddam does it for fun, and you da#n well know it.

"How will you all feel when (not if) the UN decides to invade our country and take our soverignty from us because we just made it a legitimate reason?"

While I mis-trust the UN just as much if not more than you do, I just wonder which army/navy/airforce you think the UN will use to invade???? China will soon have the military force to invade if they decide to do it, but they sure won't do it for the UNs sake, they will do it because they want to. Maybe North Korea? Again, if NK does it it will be for their own purpose.

Maybe a coalition of of England, Germany and France? Not likely; there may be a lot of people who hate america in Europe but they aren't stupid enough to invade us on behalf or the UN.

No the only threat of the UN actually being able to take over the US is through the means that they have been working at it for the last 30 years: when the liberals and leftists THAT WE ELECT overtly or tacitly, but voluntarily hand over little pieces of our sovreignty to the UN. THAT is the only real danger we face from the UN.
 

Anarchocap

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Originally posted by Silviron:
What makes you think we are immune or any different from the things Iraq is being charged with right now?!

Simple: we have a duly elected government and a system where people who disagree with policy can say so.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are joking right? We can disagree with policy and still have it happen anyway. And in some instances, we can disagree with policy and end up in jail. That makes us better and any different than a dictatorship how? Because 50.1% of the voters elected someone who decided something was "right" as opposed to the rest of the population that lost or didn't participate? Don't get me started on Democracy...

'A man is nonetheless a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years. Neither are a people any the less slaves because they are permitted to periodically choose new masters. What makes them slaves is the fact that they now are, and are always hereafter to be, in the hands of men whose power over them is, and always is to be, absolute and irresponsible. And of what appreciable value is it to any man, as an individual, that he is allowed a voice in choosing these public masters? His voice is only one of several millions.' -- Lysander Spooner
 

tkl

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Originally posted by FC-Fire/Rescue:
Amen.
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GN, you read my mind.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this is the third time fc gave props to gun nut. LOL you're cracking me up fc.
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my, this has gotten lively.
 

Silviron

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'A man is nonetheless a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years.

So, are you an anarchist or what?

Tell me of a system that works better than our REPRESENTATIVE form of government? Tell me of a country where people are more free, and have more tools to not only survive but thrive and prosper?
 

Greta

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Hmmm... just off the top of my head (and a little foggy 'cuz I just woke up from a nap), I'd say that just a few differences are that we don't fly planes into skyscrapers killing thousands just 'cuz they don't celebrate the same holidays. And we don't fund terrorist groups around the world. We allow our citizens rights and freedoms. Hell we even let our women go to school and vote!! (dontcha just hate chicks who can read and make informed decisions?!?)
 

Darell

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Silv is right! We should definitely be using "abstruse" - even as obtuse as that word can seem...
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Originally posted by Sasha:
Darell... so does that make it right? And does that mean that we should just sit back and shut up and let "the way of the world" continue on it's course?
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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How exactly does what make what right? Nothing I've said makes anything right. What I'm trying to suggest is avoiding the situation that we face today - that there is something that needed to start happening long ago to avoid today's situation. Once we're in the crappy situation, we're stuck with precious few options - and none of them are "solutions." It is too damn late! Not going to war isn't going to fix it at this point. And niether will GOING to war fix it. Nope, you ain't getting any fixes for the current problem out of me....

I have no solution for where we stand with Saddam right now. What I'd like to see happen in the future, is an energy policy wherein WE control our own foreign policy.

I don't doubt for a minute that I'm making no sense. What I think and what I can put into words is often at odds. And for that I appologize. The more specific the question, the better chance I have of answering it understandably.
 

FC.

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Tkl, your comments about moving out of your parents house, paying taxes and bills are greatly appreciated by me. I do not want to hear anything on this metter from a 16year old.(no offence)



About GN, I can't help it. I share his opinion.

And I do not support P.Bush. He successfully brainwashed a lot of people to think that US and Americans are the best thing on the face of this planet. I do not belive this to be true.
 

Greta

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Darell,

THANK YOU!!

It's about damn time that someone put it in writing... the bottom line... Darell, if you'll allow me to sum up?

DAMNED IF WE DO AND DAMNED IF WE DON'T!

And that's it folks! There ARE no answers or solutions that will make everyone happy at this point and there is nothing that can be done that is the RIGHT or WRONG thing to do.

All we can do is try to head off any further mistakes and try not to make any more. There will always be those who are gonna be severely butt-hurt. Oh well... Tel est la guerre!
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