SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

[gdillainepub]

Thanks for sharing the details of your concerns. MH-C9000 comes with a limited 3-years warranty, i would test that out.
Yes both charger models have pitfalls and tbh i am not stoked with either one either ( ).
Erhm .. the mc3k iOS app hasn't been updated in a long time while there were many updates of the device firmware since. Clearly, the old iOS app still works (as i heard) but it will not 100.0% match the present firmware version ( that's my educated guess ). If you have specific questions re MC3000 (user manual, cycle history, eneloop, better than NC2500/C9000/etc?), i'll be glad to answer them in that thread, thx!

Hi kreisl,


Thanks for giving opinions on my thread : http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?407071-Seeking-advice-on-new-charger-purchase




Well, I do have a few questions about the NC3000. Unlike the NC2000 which you will need to choose a program (charge, refresh, etc.) , then you just leave the charger for the rest, until you wanna change of its charge termination parameters. But the MC3000 which I haven't seen the real product, the iphone app, it seems it complete works a different way --- you literally need to program every task, even for NiHM cells that has industrial standards how they should be handled.


So i tried to add a program, but some parameters confuses me. Following are the examples (all for NiHM) of the parameters I don't know what they are and their significance to guarantee a proper "handling" of a NiHM cell:


1. Charge: what are Cut Current, "Target Voltage", "Cut time", "Restart Voltage"


2. Refresh: seems to have the same parameters, but there is no "rest time" - the time the battery should be allowed to "rest" between charging/discharging.


3. Break-in: I'm amazed that it has the set of parameters as the Charge program -- because what "break-in" means is actually a procedure prescribed in an IEC standard (did some homework and I believe it should be IEC 61951-2) and labeled capacity is the only variable -- what's point to still provide so many variables, because if you don't do that the IEC way, it is not a "break-in" at all.

4. Cycles: there is a "Circle time (min)" -- i don't quite get that: you set how many cycles you wanna run and the sequence your prefer (like D->C->D or C-D-D, btw, providing options for the sequence is really sweet), and that's it -- what else time parameter would that be? And for the rest of the settings my questions are the same with Charge/discharge, and again, there isn't a "resting time" setting.

5. The last thing that puzzles me is that they have "eneloop" listed out from NiHM, but the parameters to set are the same as the generic NiHM settings. What's the point?

Well these are so far all my questions by only look into the iphone MC3000 app. But I did read somewhere in this post you said the MC3000 does provide "rest time" option somewhere (guess not from the app, at least not the version I have)

And yes! I would loooove to peak into the manual and see what is monster charger can do -- do you have it? anywhere i could download?

Since you could actually got your hands on the real thing and even the subsequent firmware updates , I guess you must have some inside sources you could poke around -- any word on when it will finally come to market? Oh hell, i wish i could have one of those right now like you do!

 

[gdillainepub]

Thanks for sharing the details of your concerns. MH-C9000 comes with a limited 3-years warranty, i would test that out.
Yes both charger models have pitfalls and tbh i am not stoked with either one either ( ).
Erhm .. the mc3k iOS app hasn't been updated in a long time while there were many updates of the device firmware since. Clearly, the old iOS app still works (as i heard) but it will not 100.0% match the present firmware version ( that's my educated guess ). If you have specific questions re MC3000 (user manual, cycle history, eneloop, better than NC2500/C9000/etc?), i'll be glad to answer them in that thread, thx!

And yes, another question: I always wanted a charger that can keep logs -- all the capacities (charge and discharge, especially discharge) it records in programs like "Refresh" and "Cycling" that involves multiple sessions of charging/discharging. Does NC-3000 have such capability?

And like the Voltage-Time diagram NC-2500 shows, instead of showing only the diagram for the last session, it will be really sweet if the charger's log can rebuild diagrams for its completed charge/discharge sessions when the task is a multiple-session program (refresh/cycling). This can be done by you choosing from a list of its finished sessions which one you wanna see and the app then shows you the diagram. Another way is that charger can output the logs in format a desktop computer software can read (software -- like the one HKJ uses in his reviews).

If these two functions are possible with MC-3000, I will call it just one step away from my "dream charger" -- which can directly connected to a computer and has dedicated software for settings, monitor, and logging the charge, and the software has a Mac version!

yeah. let's call it hobby single cell charger (but i guess i'm asking for two much :huh

 

[tatasal]

(but i guess i'm asking for two much :huh

Well I guess nothing will be 'too much' if "price is no object". However, a delicate balancing act between excellent performance and features, great UI, affordability to the majority is just too difficult to ignore.

 

[GMUGNIER]

So will this be the most feature rich charger on the market, or is there something out there that will do it all? I looked through the SKYRC book and saw so many chargers, it was difficult to understand which one did what. Not very intuitive in the presentation layout.

 

[kreisl]

gdillainepub:
On the device one can set different rest times for CHARGE vs DISCHARGE, that's a new firmware feature since 2015. Your iOS app is fully functional but does not make use of the newer FW features. Other than that sorry i can't comment much on the iOS app (how much programming efforts is needed, rest time, Circle time, etc), i don't have iPhone for testing. In 2015 the device firmware underwent numerous revisions, and the iPhone app should get revised too to reflect the refinements. When i get the 2015 mc3k retail unit, i won't be able to test/review the iOS bluetooth app, somebody else could share impressions and thoughts about it and find out what "Circle time" really is because it's not mentioned in the manual.

On the device the user can view all discharged mAh's of programs like Refresh and Cycle, on the PC the user can also view the charged mAh's. The PC Link software graphs and records all data, and the user can save everything together to a single *.CSV file and open the file with any spreadsheet editor, for example in order to produce nicer looking graphs than the PC Link software already does.

The LCD screen shows the entire Voltage-Time diagram, in 128×64 resolution. On a smartphone, I'd like the idea of comparing different cycles within the same Cycle program. I can envision how the product will inspire owners to think of more and more improvements of the bluetooth app and the PC Link software. My advise then would be: submit your suggestions and ideas and forget. Not wait, not hope. Not dream. But work with and appreciate the versions of the initial market release. It's already taken too long to get this total product package (hardware, firmware, PC Link software, bluetooth app, decent user manual) out, and firmware refinement (urgent/necessary) will always have higher priority than improving PC Link software or bluetooth app for the sake of improvement (not necessary). I guess the latter will mostly depend on user demand and the commercial success of the product.

The manual is not ready yet, nor approved, for publication. I am wondering if it will be made available for download before or only after the physical market release. Hopefully users will be more confident about the many options and parameters after reading the printed manual. I had a glance over some pre-PDF and everything looks well explained for our purpose. Sorry for referring you to the manual and not copy/pasting the PDF contents (about cut time, target voltage, etc) here.

 

[gdillainepub]

gdillainepub:
... the refinements. When i get the 2015 mc3k retail unit, i won't be able to test/review the iOS bluetooth app, somebody else could share impressions and thoughts about it and find out what "Circle time" really is because it's not mentioned in the manual.

On the device the user can view all discharged mAh's of programs like Refresh and Cycle, on the PC the user can also view the charged mAh's. The PC Link software graphs and records all data, and the user can save everything together to a single *.CSV file and open the file with any spreadsheet editor, for example in order to produce nicer looking graphs than the PC Link software already does.
.....

WOOOW!!

I noticed that you used the word "retail" -- does that mean that they already have a retail package but is currently only released to a limited people for some sort of beta test?

And there is a PC Link software ?!:sick2: I really didn't notice that but i just checked their website. There is no mentioning of MC3000 in the "Products" section however google finds MC3000 in their 2015 catalog: http://www.skyrc.com/download/catalog.pdf And PC-Link was indeed mentioned in that catalog. This is a really long thread and I'm sorry I haven't read all the posts. Google also links me to the page 5 of this thread and on post #125 you mentioned that the PC-Link software works with MC3000 was actually from a third party (EBC-A), right? i tried to find EBC-A but seems the search results were not the EBC-A you were talking about. Mind give me a link of your EBCA battery charger analyzer?

Also i'm curious how you upgrade MC3000 firmware. Because the NC2500 firmware was upgraded when the ios app was first connected to it. Since the MC3000 app hasn't been updated for a long time, via what interface/software do you upgrade its firmware.

Given that thought, do you happen to know that NC2500 also has new firmwares available? Since its app hasn't been updated for a while either there is no way to find out for us normal users.

As to their priority regarding the firmware/app/computer software, i believe they are equally important. If this advanced charger are given with all the functionalities by the firmware, yet the user interface (app &/OR computer software) is not updated accordingly -- what good is that if users don't have access to those functions, right?

And i'm still anxious to find out when exactly the MC3000 will finally hit the market. If you have any information you're free to disclose I'd really love to know.. weeks, months, or no schedule at all? :sigh: I can't wait to get my hands on it.

 

[kreisl]

The other day i ordered commercial 16160 conductive spacers from FT to learn how well the MC3000 is suitable for charging (and analyzing) 10180 batteries. After all, the charger supports down to 50mA nominal charge rate for LiIon (and all other supported chemistries). One could employ these spacers in other chargers too but only few 4-bay chargers offer charge rates as low as 50mA.

The nominal capacity of the white DQG branded battery is 70mAh. 50mA equals a charge rate of 0.7C, nice that sounds safe enough. The 16mm Ø spacer may sit in the tray, whereas the tiny battery is best suspended at its terminals to ensure electrical connection and perfect axial symmetry. I guess one could support the battery with a paper pad underneath:

Does the slider exert sufficient pressure at the contact point, the negative (-)terminal of the battery? The answer is yes. With the spacer the arrangement has the same length as a 16340 battery:

If one substituted a non-conductive cylinder for the 10180 battery, for example a 3cm long hot glue stick, this arrangement could possibly be misused to charge & analyze single cell non-cylindrical LiIon batteries like a smartphone battery. The user manual explicitly warns the user not to abuse a MC3000 slot as 'single cell hobby charger'; what happens when you wire up a battery and the crocodile clips (=battery terminals!!) touch each other by accident? The danger of you short-circuiting your own smartphone battery with your own wires and clips is way too high.

Anyhow, the tip of aluminum spacer is long enough to mount a crocodile clip. Helpful if the advanced user wanted to log the voltage in parallel with a digital multimeter and compare the DMM reading with the MC3000 voltage measurement:

Note that the photos in this post show the old firmware on my old prototype charger test sample. The sliders on the retail unit are minimally different (shaping, silver-plating) and the instead of a blinking READY the LCD shows a blinking PROGRAM[01], or whichever program number (=program) got pre-assigned to the slot. Charging with 0.05A (=50mA) works with any battery size, not only with 10180 batteries:

Q. So??
A. So what?

Q. What's the result of the DQG 10180 capacity measurement? You did analyze the batteries, didn't you?
A. No, not yet. Sorry but I am saving the batteries for tests with the mc3k retail unit which is a much more accurate analyzer than my above prototype.

Q. OIC. But how can you claim so if you haven't reviewed the production version yet?
A. The maker told me about the test reports and i believe the Chinese. Too bad that everybody has gone on National Day Gold Week vacation argh.

Q. Why go through all that effort when you could have tested 50mA charging on any cell?
A. The point was to investigate if it is possible to charge 10180 safely with MC3000 and how it is done in detail.

Q. Why would you want to charge 10180 with MC3000? Doesn't your 10180 flashlight come with a charger solution?
A. I don't want to buy another charger if MC3000 can charge it too. No, my 10180 flashlight comes with 3×LR44 and no recharging solution.

 

[Gauss163]

@kreisl Why go through all that effort when you could have tested 50mA charging on any cell?

In any case, to effectively analyze (smaller capacity) noncylindrical cells like those from cellphones, rather than risk damaging a very expensive multislot analyzing charger, instead I recommend obtaining a cheaper but more versatile CC/CV charger. For example, the Minghe B3008 can be had for about $19 on eBay, and it has continuously adjustable charge current (claims 0.001A regulation/display). There are analogous dischargers discussed here and on BLF.

 

[tatasal]

Meanwhile, the salivating continues...

 

[_UPz]

...

The nominal capacity of the white DQG branded battery is 70mAh. 50mA equals a charge rate of 0.7C, nice that sounds safe enough. The 16mm Ø spacer may sit in the tray, whereas the tiny battery is best suspended at its terminals to ensure electrical connection and perfect axial symmetry. I guess one could support the battery with a paper pad underneath:

....
..

How do the charger know battery temp if the cell is suspended in the air and not touching the tray sensor?

 

[GMUGNIER]

Does anybody know if this charger has the hardware for the battery bank, and the firm ware wont support it, or does it need additional harware to make a battery bank work? Is this something that we can modify ourselves and add by tweaking the internal firmware?

 

[kreisl]

As to their priority regarding the firmware/app/computer software, i believe they are equally important.

"equally important" .. we'll see how it goes, the market perception. Personally, i love the PC connectivity and don't mind Bluetooth.

helo i think you misread my mentioning of EBC-A. its software is neat and gets updated regularly maybe twice per year but i don't know Chinese and it's not compatible with mc3k. anyhow the mc3k IFA thread wouldn't be the proper place to find out about potential competitors

The firmware updates through PC Link software. I posted examples before. A Windows PC is required and a household USB cable.

Sorry I don't check up on NC2500 updates. I have the 2k5 charger too but find our 2.5yr old nimh bluetooth charger of little interest since the advent of 3k which could be seen as successor or bigger brother in terms of looks DNA, see this very early aesthetic design draft:

No further news or updates available at this point. The latest quote posted in this thread regarding 'date' cited end of October. Last month i cited roll-out September, and in July someone said end of August. Reminds me of pre-ordering new Zebralights

 

[gdillainepub]

"equally important" .. we'll see how it goes, the market perception. Personally, i love the PC connectivity and don't mind Bluetooth.

helo i think you misread my mentioning of EBC-A. its software is neat and gets updated regularly maybe twice per year but i don't know Chinese and it's not compatible with mc3k. anyhow the mc3k IFA thread wouldn't be the proper place to find out about potential competitors

The firmware updates through PC Link software. I posted examples before. A Windows PC is required and a household USB cable.

Sorry I don't check up on NC2500 updates. I have the 2k5 charger too but find our 2.5yr old nimh bluetooth charger of little interest since the advent of 3k which could be seen as successor or bigger brother in terms of looks DNA, see this very early aesthetic design draft:

Hi Kreisl, thanks for the additional information:

1. Well if I understand this correctly: You personally would certainly love the app and computer software keeping up to speed with the firmware updates. However you consider if you take the manufacturer's angle, they should consider firmware updates of greater priority, correct? And you also stressed the "market perception" which to my understanding is that you were saying the "market conception" was a determining factor how they prioritize the firmware/app/computer software.

Well, this is the part i don't quite understand. Like you said the MC3000 is totally an upgrade or the "pro version" of NC2500 -- i guess this is so obvious and everyone interested in these chargers can see that, in your words they apparently share the same DNA even by the chassis design. But what makes NC2500 so special was obviously its iOS connectivity and the dedicated app. That's the "smart" part of this charger, perceived by both the manufacturer's ads as well as public opinions (all the review articles online and video clips on youtube).

That's the reason I believe firmware/app/software are equally important. Because many of the rich functions embedded in the firmware can only be accessed through the iOS or android app, and the computer software for that matter. If NC2500 came along with an outdated app that could not exploit all its functions, or the user choose to use the charger on the device itself, the NC2500 would not be much different from other chargers like the MAHA 9000. right? And this "smart" and special part of the charger should also apply to MC3000 -- without the app/computer software its capability would be considerably diminished -- so i really don't see how the market perception could affect the development of the app/software in line with the firmware. Everyone -- at least those who are keen to these charger stuff -- are excited because NC2500/MC3000 might be the first single cell chargers with app/computer controls, and that's the innovation here which makes them unique. Their targeted market -- people enthusiastic about precision charging control, how could they consider the app/computer link not the most important reason that arouses their desire to purchase? But for the rest of the market, the majority of normal consumers, a dumb charger with a refresh button (like the sanyo one) makes them happy already; and this part of the market is not relevant to MC3000, and not even for the old MAHA 9000: how can they be bothered to press the extra buttons while they can just plug the batteries in and go?

2. "potential competitors" you said: are there any already? (EBC-A??) oo: Are you just teasing us or there are in fact other competitor products (launched or will be launched very soon) you know of? Well at least I didn't find any when I was looking up and down in the hobby chargers trying to find any that can charge single cell.

3. Ok so I misunderstood the part about EBC-A pc link. Since you mentioned EBC-A as an "charger-analyzer" i assumed it was charger for single cell batteries. If that is true could you kindly post a link to their website (Chinese or English i wanna take a look anyway), because when i tried to google EBC-A the results showed websites with "EBC" in the name of some equipment that looks like for industrial use, and not a product with the exact "EBC-A" as its name or model.

4. The MC3k PC Link -- thank for the link and I saw that picture. So this "PC Link" is not that pc link for the EBC-A but SkyRC's proprietary "PC-Link" for the MC3000. Could you also post a link if this software can already be openly downloaded -- just want to take a peak what's inside even i don't have an MC3000 .

And thanks a great deal for so much unreleased detail. :twothumbs

 

[kreisl]

How do the charger know battery temp if the cell is suspended in the air and not touching the tray sensor?

If you're concerned about off readings, you could make the charger ignore. :huh:
The corresponding option in the user program is CUT TEMP, select OFF, how ironical!, as the parameter

Maybe some destructive abuser could that 10180 cherry with 3 amps in a crazy youtube? :laughing:
Afaik there is still an internal slot eff0f8 temperature limit no matter if the user sets OFF as CUT TEMP.

 

[Gauss163]

If you're concerned about off readings, you could make the charger ignore. :huh:
The corresponding option in the user program is CUT TEMP, select OFF, how ironical!, as the parameter .

Are the temp readings employed in the Li-ion charge algorithm? Will it terminate/pause the charge or lower the current if the cell/charger temp becomes too high?

 

[kreisl]

has the hardware for the battery bank, and the firm ware wont support it, or does it need additional harware to make a battery bank work? Is this something that we can modify ourselves and add by tweaking the internal firmware?

We cannot tweak the firmware for powerbanking nor can we modify ourselves because the charger has not the hardware for power bank any longer. All circuitry and components belonging to powerbanking are gone, ripped out. Can't fix missing

 

[Sharkie]

Any news on the availability ?

 

[kreisl]

Are the temp readings employed in the Li-ion charge algorithm? Will it terminate/pause the charge or lower the current if the cell/charger temp becomes too high?

Good questions.

Yes, temp readings are employed in the programs:
► If BattTemp becomes too high, the charger terminates the operation (e.g. Charge) in the slot.
Like any analog thermometer, the slot sensors are live no matter if there is no operation nor battery in it. A BattTemp Too Hi warning is issued when they register any maxing temperature; the lower safety limit is the value set (or not set) by the user in the user program, the upper safety limit -the safety net- is a value anchored in the present firmware and left to the discretion of the FW developing team.
► If SysTemp becomes high, i noticed on my old protos that the load was automatically lowered, which i personally did not appreciate because then the operation is not a "constant current" operation anymore. If SysTemp becomes too high, a SysTemp Too Hi warning would be issued and operation of the charger terminated or paused … depending on the firmware version.

Whatever info i just gave you regarding your questions, it may prove wrong after the next firmware update. If so many owners vehemently oppose how the present firmware processes temp readings, then we'd discuss the topic and submit the best cpf ideas to the maker team.

 

[Sharkie]

Too bad teleporters aren't invented.

 

[GMUGNIER]

So I am not trying to hi-jack this post, but I had asked a question earlier on and had not received an answer. I have looked at the myriad of chargers offered by SkyRC and was completely overwhelmed, does anyone know if this is the most feature rich charger on the market? And does SkyRC have anything with more features for cell type batteries? I see that the rc battery chargers are in a different category. Thanks.