Street robber/mugger blinding torch needed.

[grunscga]

That all assumes that the woman SEES the guy and he is, for whatever reason, deterred by a woman with a flashlight.

Yes, if she's walking down the street with her face jammed in her iPod and zero situational awareness, then that makes her one of those "others" I mentioned, and no tool is going to help her. I'm making the assumption that this thread came up because there was enough situational awareness to be worried, which is a good start.

As for whether or not the guy is deterred, well, I can't answer that for the UK. The various videos I've seen online show a criminal population that seems completely unafraid of the general public (and occasionally the police), so it's possible that they don't care about retaining the element of surprise. Here in the US (well, away from the coasts, anyway), a woman paying attention and pointing a flashlight at your face as you approach is likely entirely capable of ruining your whole day should you decide to pose a threat. Or at least, the likelihood is high enough that it's in Mr. Mugger's best interest to mumble something about the time and scuttle away.

A mugger usually takes it's victim by surprise, I wont go into it to much but the only way out of that kind of situation is hand to hand combat.

No, the only way out of that kind of situation is to not get into it in the first place. There are 3 requirements for that:

1. Be aware of what's going on around you (discussion not relevant to this board).
2. Be able to communicate to potential bad guy(s) that you know they are there and they no longer have the element of surprise (flashlights work for this; discussion on which ones is relevant).
3. Said bad guy needs to actually care about losing the element of surprise (I can't answer this for the UK).

 

[JaguarDave-in-Oz]

That all assumes that the woman SEES the guy and he is, for whatever reason, deterred by a woman with a flashlight.

I haven't a clue whether the following that I write is within the bounds of the rules or not but I think it might be ok so anyway, I have the following to add to my first post on this subject where I said that I cannot fathom someone relying on a light to protect them:

1. A "mugger" generally exists in an urban type area and will surely not attack in conditions where it is totally dark and he can't see his victim. There will likely be some low light afforded by streetlight or similar even if that light is a long way away so he will surely have at least a dim view of his "target"

2. A Quark 2 x 123 turbo has supposedly 230 lumens or thereabouts.

3. I decided to test for myself this theory about blinding light.

4. I chose my hallway. It's dim but not so dark that I can't see the "victim" (in this case my wife) who held in her hands my Quark Turbo set on max and was given instructions that when I approached her she was to shine it directly in my eyes and keep it there.

5. I approached my wife with a view to "attacking" her and she used the torch. I grabbed her hand to remove the threat of the "illumination weapon" (I chose to only grab rather than smash it away as I would ordinarily choose because I didn't want to hurt my wife).

6. The torch light actually gave me the precise target to aim for at when trying to disable the light source (obviously). It didn't take long.

7. While the light was upon my eyes I could not see my "victim" (wife).

8. As soon as I forced the light away I saw a large spot in my vision but was still able to look through it to see clearly my "victim's" head. I'm still seeing the spots now as I type but am also still able to see "through" them to see my words.

9. Sorry, but my conclusion is that if I'm mugging you then the lumens of a handbag sized light at close quarters aren't going to stop me. You'll actually need to know how to fight or else perhaps be retreating fast out of reach.

PS And just before pressing "submit" on this post, I also tried the whole scenario again on stobe and that had even less "blinding" effect.

 

[SureAddicted]

No, the only way out of that kind of situation is to not get into it in the first place. There are 3 requirements for that:

1. Be aware of what's going on around you (discussion not relevant to this board).
2. Be able to communicate to potential bad guy(s) that you know they are there and they no longer have the element of surprise (flashlights work for this; discussion on which ones is relevant).
3. Said bad guy needs to actually care about losing the element of surprise (I can't answer this for the UK).

That's very true, but sometimes it can't be avoided, and believe it or not muggings sometimes do happen when other people are around, crowded places etc.
Using this or using that has it's drawbacks. For starter's, in that kind of situation your going to be nervous and jittery. Remembering where you had the light (handbag or onself), deploying it, pointing it at the subject and activating it, it's all easier said than done. And what if the mugger disabled her arms because he didn't want her reaching for anything? You have to think like a mugger to have an advantage.

 

[mikes1]

There are some very interesting ideas and information in this thread; I would also like to say well done to DM51 for his very sensible attitude
This is not the kind of thread I would normally post in but as a train driver it has struck a chord and I am very aware of the undesirables that tend to congregate at train stations.
I should say I know nothing about self defence
At work I carry a Sure Fire C2 with a Moddoo triple XP-E drop in. Do I think this will save me from a surprise attacker? of course not but if I go in to a dark area I will be able to see what's going on and may be avoid any potential hazard.
You must be better of with a light than without one but don't consider it as any sort of a defensive weapon.
As for what light I think a Ra clicky would fit the bill nicely

Mike

 

[jk037]

If you and your mrs are concerned about her safety then surely the obvious solution is to avoid being in certain places at times when she feels at risk?

• Is there any way she could catch an earlier train to avoid being at the railway station after dark? (If her working hours are part of the problem then it would be wise for her to explain her concerns to her employer)
• Is it a small, unmanned, quiet, poorly-lit station and would it be feasible for her to go to a bigger, busier and properly-staffed station?
• Could you wait for her on the platform so that she isn't left in this place on her own?

My own girlfriend also comes to see me via the train; my local station is about 5 mins from my house but as it's tiny, unstaffed and poorly-lit we agreed that, unless it's broad daylight and the station is likely to be busy, she should go to the nearest major station in Doncaster. Which means about 30 mins drive for me to pick her up, but she's much safer this way and so it's worth the slight inconvenience.

Even with all the flashlights and self-defence courses in the world I wouldn't rate most people's chances against a determined and desperate mugger who really doesn't give a damn about any consequences of his actions.

(I had mentioned all the above previously, but my entire post got deleted as below my sensible suggestions I'd made the mistake of attempting to inject a little humour into the thread - lesson learned, that's the last time I try that on CPF! :shakehead)

 

[SoCalMan]

My conclusions thus far after reading these posts are:

1. Situational awareness is critical. Be attentive to your surroundings at all times.
2. If you are uncomfortable for your safety, you probably have a good reason so follow your instincts at all times. It's always best to avoid such areas from the start, if possible.
3. Flashlights are meant to illuminate dark places. When in such an area, by all means use it. In that regard, the light may also help prevent the element of surprise from occurring.
4. A "blinding" light to the eyes could/will buy a moment of time, and if so, be prepared to follow a "plan B" immediately.

 

[Justin Case]

Yes, if the attacker is already powered up and has the advantage because he grabbed you and is thus probably in position to pound you, then deploying some tool at that point is problematical. Is this really any surprise? I don't see this as a valid argument against carrying defensive tools. What it does argue for is better awareness, #1 on the priorities of survival.

Some of the tests described above are rather artificial. The "attacker" already knows what is going to happen (the defender is going to deploy a flashlight at close distance) and has already formulated a response plan (close the gap further and attempt a disarm). Well, how can you have a specific Orient, Decide, and Act branch all ready to go in your scenario when you haven't even Observed anything yet to make a decision branch? That's frankly a cheat.

The light is deployed by surprise. It is preferably used at longer distances -- e.g., outside of your reactionary gap. The defender also moves to take advantage of the available time hopefully given by the surprise (OODA loop delay for the attacker). The concept is to continually reset the opponent's OODA loop by staying ahead of him so that he never gets out of the Observe step.

If you were unable to deploy the light in the desired tactical fashion, well then you will probably need a Plan B. It's desirable to have a Plan B in any case. Immediately move off the line of force at a minimum. Don't use your light and stay anchored in place waiting to get run over by the freight train.

Re: hard cases with nothing to lose. Sure, you're in for a bad day at the office if you run into someone like that. So what? Your options are the same -- defend and hopefully prevail, submit and almost certainly lose.

I would suggest getting a good flashlight like a SureFire 6P with Malkoff M60 or other similar single mode tailcap switching light with a good sized and bright hot spot, having the light easily available, staying aware so that you can deploy the light in a tactically sound fashion, and getting some basic seminar-style unarmed combatives training involving simple and easy to remember gross motor movements and awareness drills.

Of course, avoidance is desirable. But crime happens. If the victims knew they were going to be victimized, they probably would have chosen to be elsewhere.

The goal is disengagement with the least negative impact to your life -- legal, moral, ethical, and health.

 

[Justin Case]

My conclusions thus far after reading these posts are:

1. Situational awareness is critical. Be attentive to your surroundings at all times.
2. If you are uncomfortable for your safety, you probably have a good reason so follow your instincts at all times. It's always best to avoid such areas from the start, if possible.
3. Flashlights are meant to illuminate dark places. When in such an area, by all means use it. In that regard, the light may also help prevent the element of surprise from occurring.
4. A "blinding" light to the eyes could/will buy a moment of time, and if so, be prepared to follow a "plan B" immediately.

Very well summarized. In a nutshell, your #2 covers DeBecker's book "The Gift of Fear", which was previously mentioned.

 

[TITAN1833]

My advice to the OP I'd be more inclined to use a 30/60 lumen floody light coupled with StoppaRed 🙂 and not a high powered one :thumbsup:

A flood light will light up the whole target and less likely to harm your own vision at night also you will be able to see if he's carrying a sharp much more easily.

the thing with high powered lights is any thing white i.e perps white shirt in the vicinity will more often bounce the light back into your eyes,and when you turn it off your eyes will have to readjust to the night again.

Lastly if you feel uneasy walking about at night make sure the light and stoppaRed are in hand and not deep inside a bag :twothumbs

Train your mind and hands to go to the items you may need to use, until it becomes second nature,stay safe :twothumbs

 

[seale_navy]

As I was in the UK last year and spend almost a year there, safety at night was a concern too.. like going back home from a friend place.

first is vigilance on the surrounding... like some drunk guy on the street.. one has to be observant like watch his moves.. prepare for an attack.

I always carried a flashlight when i walk at night.. The torch is always in my hand.. ready to blast if anything were to happen. In the UK, flashlight and pepper spray is all we got...

Its better than not having anything.. I am sure the OP considered other safety measure like going for self defense class and etc.. but with all that circumstances taking into account, a torch is his wife best chance so to speak... its a deterrent item nevertheless, it just deters someone from harming.. but it doesnt mean they wont harm u...

 

[Bronco]

There IS a legal self defence spray available for civilian use in the UK.
Its made by MACE in the USA and is called StoppaRed.

Its a ballistic marker dye that when fired gives someone an almighty smack in the face and then instantly foams up, getting in the eyes, nose and mouth.
As its a permanant dye it takes ages to wash off, and leaves assailants very red-faced and easy to find.

Are we sure this StoppaRed has actually passed any legal test cases yet in Britain? I would hate for the OP's wife to become the legal guinea pig for some less than thoroughly vetted personal self defense scheme that could easily be construed as seeking to circumvent the spirit, if not the letter, of British law.

Let's consider for a moment the humiliation that any self respecting rapist or mugger would be forced to endure at the hands of his peers should he end up with a face dyed red for several days as a consequence of a botched rape attempt. The inflicting of such emotional trauma on a legitimate career rapist is clearly not in keeping with the foundations of English law which demand that the criminal be protected at all costs. PTSD, loss of self esteem and clinical depression are other potential longer term ramifications of this action that could eventually demand appropriate legal recourse. The OP's wife could easily be subjecting herself to years of expensive litigation by taking any course of action that goes beyond full submission.

I might suggest having the OP's wife contact the track coach at the local university. Serious training at distances between 400 and 800 meters should give her a decent chance of making an escape to a safe location. Make absolutely sure, however, that she first researches any potential liability she may be subjected to if the rapist is injured while trying to chase her.

 

[carrot]

The first part of proper self defense is awareness. Using a bright light to sweep questionable areas is probably the most important use of a flashlight. Yes, a flashlight can blind an attacker temporarily and give you the upper hand, but only after the first tier of self defense (proper awareness) fails and you now have to engage (fight) your attacker.

To that end, I recommend a light such as the Surefire LX2, Surefire 6P + Malkoff M60, or the Quark Turbo 123.

I didn't bother reading any of the posts as self defense threads hardly interest me but I'm sure there is both good and bad advice provided here.

 

[Warp]

I think we need to stop using the word "blind".


These lights are not going to "blind" anybody. I know this firsthand.

 

[ducat]

Bronco, love it!😀

Seriously, StoppaRed has been used many times in the UK, and to date, as far as I am aware, NOBODY has been prosecuted for using it correctly.

Theres a youtube video of a guy catching one full in the face, worth a look if you doubt its efficiency!😱:thumbsup:

 

[Bronco]

Bronco, love it!😀

Seriously, StoppaRed has been used many times in the UK, and to date, as far as I am aware, NOBODY has been prosecuted for using it correctly.

I will gladly take your word for this. 🙂 It's a good thing to hear.

I'm sure full implementation of the Castle Doctrine can't be far off now. 😀

 

[ducat]

Castle doctrine? Unsure what that means. All I want is for my countrymen to be able to defend themselves without being prosecuted by a system which favours the crook. It's slowly coming around with some judges actually demonstrating common sense, but I think its still going to be a long haul.

I loved your post by the way. There's a common misconception in this country that our American cousins don't get irony. You've certainly put that one to bed! Thanks for giving an old man a real belly laugh!

God bless, keep safe.

Steve.

 

[Justin Case]

In the UK, where on the force continuum is StoppaRed?

 

[ducat]

Their website is here.

http://www.stoppared.com/

Hope that helps.

 

[Chris H]

Just thought I would mention as we are on the subject...

I live in North Wales in the UK and often go out jogging round the country lanes at around midnight! (I know this seems strange but it is the only time to myself with working long hours and having a young family and it is so peaceful - proper 'me time') Last September I was coming to the end of my jog and saw a car parked up blocking the really narrow lane which I was on. It saw me and drove off which I obviously thought was suspicious. I took the reg number and carried on jogging and when I rounded the corner, 3 guys in hoods and balaclavas came out of a driveway to my right and blocked my way. One came towards me and started swearing at me and the other two held back.
In my right hand as per usual was my eagletac M2XC4 BUT set to low as this is all I had been using when jogging. I'm not a small bloke so was prepared to defend myself using my torch however they all ran off back down the lane towards the car that I had seen. I ran down the road and knocked at the first house with its lights still on and called the police.
My point is this (after all that!) I had an extremely bright torch in my hand which could have been used to momentarily dazzle them but as it was set to low it was rendered useless (as I didn't want to move and turn the dial and antagonise them) so be aware if this is the reason you have a torch then please make sure it is ready instantly to fulfill its purpose and you know its UI back to front.
By the way, one of the officers who attended was so impressed with a flashlight that could be so bright, he took down this very forum as somewhere to visit!
Cheers
Chris

 

[Warp]

Castle doctrine? Unsure what that means.

Since you are in the UK you don't need to know what it means, unfortunately.

It is a catch phrase used to describe some state laws over here in the US. Traditionally almost every state in the US allows a person to use whatever force is reasonable given the circumstances, up to and including deadly force, in defense while in their domicile (castle). Also traditionally many states, especially in the past, required citizens to retreat, if possible, when faced with an attack or assault while in public.

This was a questionable law in the opinion of many because, after all, why should a regular person who is breaking no laws and threatening/harming nobody be legally forced to retreat when confronted by a criminal?

Somewhat recently several states converted and now have "stand your ground" laws or "castle doctrine". With these laws a person is not required to retreat before responding with reasonable froce....much like if you were in your home.