Street robber/mugger blinding torch needed.

[Justin Case]

It appears you can use StoppaRed before soft hands, which is pretty early in the game.

 

[J_C]

This topic is a joke, give up, if you are in an area where there is this significant a danger it is disservice to you to pretend a flashlight will make a difference.

What does a really bright or aggressive strobe do really? It scares animals, but pisses off humans.

Sorry but this topic is crazy (and I apologize that I did not read all prior replies), a flashlight is an illumination tool, at BEST it only causes a moment of confusion, but having a moment does little if you don't have some other plan. In other words, it has no use to deter or prevent street robbers/etc.

While I value the utility of a good light and have never done such criminal things, if you tried to deter me and I was out to rob or do harm, such a light is a target, not in any way beneficial to you. LACK of light can be a good thing when you are not the aggressor.

 

[DM51]

my entire [previous] post got deleted as below my sensible suggestions I'd made the mistake of attempting to inject a little humour into the thread

The injection of humor into a serious topic can fall flat or even backfire. If an entire post is humorous, it may work; but juxtaposing serious with non-serious content in the same post is less likely to succeed.

Let's consider for a moment the humiliation that any self respecting rapist or mugger would be forced to endure at the hands of his peers should he end up with a face dyed red for several days as a consequence of a botched rape attempt. The inflicting of such emotional trauma on a legitimate career rapist is clearly not in keeping with the foundations of English law which demand that the criminal be protected at all costs. PTSD, loss of self esteem and clinical depression are other potential longer term ramifications of this action that could eventually demand appropriate legal recourse. The OP's wife could easily be subjecting herself to years of expensive litigation by taking any course of action that goes beyond full submission.

Irony can work, as in this^^ good example 🙂

---------------

I'm not sure there is much more to be said on this topic; but we'll leave it open a while longer just in case.

Members should continue to bear in mind that this is a flashlight forum, for discussions about flashlights, rather than a one for discussions about self-defense. This discussion has tended to veer off-topic into the realm of self-defense, primarily because there is in reality only a marginal role for flashlights in most self-defense situations.

if there is this significant a danger it is disservice to you to pretend a flashlight will make a difference.

The thread is tending to this overall viewpoint, which I think sums up what many other members have said.

 

[Jay R]

I think that a lot of the posts state that a flashlight isn’t going to be any use for protecting yourself from a mugger which may be true but I think that’s missing the point. I doubt that the lady in question would be relying solely on a bright light to protect herself. I guess it would be used along with fast feet, an attack alarm, a loud scream, etc.. In this case, I believe that it would be better than nothing.
Imagine this situation which is more realistic, especially in England. She is walking home and gets accosted by a drunk for whatever reason. She has in her hand a Lumapower Incedio set to come on at high. A blast 240 lumens in the drunks eyes will certainly make him fall back long enough for her to run.
How about this. She is walking down a dark street and suspects that the man behind is following her, she turns around and lights him up. If he is a mugger, chances are he’s now going to think twice about attacking her.
Perhaps she has to walk down a dark alleyway and there are rubbish bins, boxes, lots of dark shadows… The ability to light up the shadows so that she can see there is nobody ‘lying in wait’ will give her peace of mind.
As the post before said, they are good against animals and a moments distraction for people ( Both I have experience of.) but sometimes a moments distraction is all you need.
I say, give here a small 240 lumen light for her to carry in her hand. Maybe it will help a bit. Running shoes and fast reflexes wouldn’t do any harm either.

 

[jsholli]

Of course, let me speak to the OP. Although I thought I did a pretty good job laying out my overall stance in my couple of posts, maybe I need to be more direct in addressing the OP.

Will buying your wife a really good flashlight make her safer? Well, if that's all you do, than no, it will probably make her less safe due to the false sense of security it instills and the inherent risks that are introduced when a "weapon" is introduced into the scenario.

If your goal is to empower and equip your wife with habits and abilities that mitigate interpersonal violence (i.e. street crime) then simply buying her a flashlight is kind of missing the point and actually making things worse. In the UK there is a self-defense instructor in Bristol (if I'm not mistaken) named Dik Chance. He teaches FAST Defense and FAST Combatives, which is some of the best self-defense training ordinary civilians can get on a short-term training basis (weekend seminar).

His contact Info / website:
http://fastcombatives.com/index.php?option=com_contact&Itemid=3

I personally know from hands-on experience that taking your wife (and yourself for that matter) to a FAST self-defense seminar will do light years more good for her in the long run than just buying her a flashlight for "blinding muggers". Take the money you would spend on a nice new SureFire and take her to a seminar.

If you aren't close to Dik, he will guide you to someone over there that is good... you can trust his advice he's a really good person who know his stuff, and you can bet your life on it, literally. Be careful entering into the world of self-defense training, most of the stuff out there is garbage, and too many salesman with inflated promises will sell you the equivalent of snake-oil.

If you aren't going to take her to a FAST Defense / Combatives seminar, then pick up a copy of "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin De Becker. One of the best books you can invest your time reading on this subject, and it costs 1/10th of a SureFire.

I have a lot of respect for yalskey's and Justin Case's remarks.

And having read most of this thread, I feel for the OP not being able to better protect his family due to the EU laws...so, the best advise I can offer would be the Jetbeam M1X. It may be pushing the size requirements [may blow 'em out of the water] but it is smaller than a 3D mag lite. I normally don't even bother adding my thoughts to these threads, but I actually have some experience with the M1X...when 'playing' with the light, I accidentally pushed the head enough to engage the max mode resulting in my disorientation and imbalance. Granted, I wasn't expecting anything as I fear an attacker would be, but this was the first and only light that actually stunned me. Also, the head is fairly robust and may be another advantage of this model.

 

[Justin Case]

My advice to the OP I'd be more inclined to use a 30/60 lumen floody light coupled with StoppaRed 🙂 and not a high powered one :thumbsup:

I've tested the 30 lumen SureFire 3P on the mat against multiple mock attackers and it is too weak to work well. And the 3P is not floody. A flood beam would further dissipate the intensity you need to interrupt the attacker's Observe step. I've also tested a floody 60 lumen light -- the original SureFire L4. Also inadequate intensity.

The minimum I would suggest is the original 60 lumen, incandescent SureFire 6P.

 

[Justin Case]

This topic is a joke, give up, if you are in an area where there is this significant a danger it is disservice to you to pretend a flashlight will make a difference.

What does a really bright or aggressive strobe do really? It scares animals, but pisses off humans.

Sorry but this topic is crazy (and I apologize that I did not read all prior replies), a flashlight is an illumination tool, at BEST it only causes a moment of confusion, but having a moment does little if you don't have some other plan. In other words, it has no use to deter or prevent street robbers/etc.

While I value the utility of a good light and have never done such criminal things, if you tried to deter me and I was out to rob or do harm, such a light is a target, not in any way beneficial to you. LACK of light can be a good thing when you are not the aggressor.

You've already been targeted as a potential victim without the flashlight playing any role. What you want to do now is to "fail" the victim interview process. This is a "job" that you don't want.

Against most low level crims, you need to look like enough of a problem that the crim will simply interview someone else that looks easier to victimize. The low level crim is low on the food chain and any injury to him will subject him to victimization. It isn't worth it to deal with a problem "victim" when the pickings are ripe for plenty of other softer targets.

If you are a more determined mugger, the defender's responses aren't going to differ. The defender always responds with equal force. If the light flash doesn't deter the mugger and the mugger continues to close the gap, it's time for Plan B, which might require hard hands. But that doesn't diminish the value of using the flashlight initially.

Just about everyone has already said that a flashlight as magic talisman isn't going to work, and have suggested some training or at least a plan to complement the flashlight. I also don't think anyone is suggesting that you are automatically safe in some inherently dangerous area just because you have a flashlight.

When to use the light is part of tactics. Just because you have the flashlight doesn't mean you have to use it. If concealment in darkness is an advantage, just keep the light off. But you have the light if you need the sudden, bright illumination.

Many things can aggravate a situation, especially if used improperly and/or poorly timed. That can include StoppaRed, pepper spray (e.g., for use in the United States, not the UK), or a flashlight. If the opponent is already powered up and mentally driven to complete his task regardless of what happens next, guess what? He'll probably accomplish that task and you probably will just enrage him further. If you interrupt his OODA loop before he reaches that decision point, you can short-circuit his intentions. That's why something like StoppaRed seems to be appropriate for use before soft hands, as would a flashlight. Photon pressure, no matter how bright your flashlight is, probably won't help in a hard hands situation in deflecting a punch.

Trainers see this all the time in pepper spray class. If the student is determined and prepared, he can take a face full of the hottest spray and drive on -- execute various defensive tactics, draw and shoot, whatever. The powered-up student won't even cough from inhaling any spray. In contrast, student bystanders often cough from the side spray contamination because of the irritation to the mucus membranes. If you are caught by surprise, then a mere "BOO" can make you jump and cause a relatively long pause (in terms of the timescale for self defense) in your reactions. I've seen people in class cover 7 yds in about 1.2 sec. So you can create a sizable gap very quickly.

 

[Warp]

I think that a lot of the posts state that a flashlight isn’t going to be any use for protecting yourself from a mugger which may be true but I think that’s missing the point. I doubt that the lady in question would be relying solely on a bright light to protect herself. I guess it would be used along with fast feet, an attack alarm, a loud scream, etc.. In this case, I believe that it would be better than nothing.
Imagine this situation which is more realistic, especially in England. She is walking home and gets accosted by a drunk for whatever reason. She has in her hand a Lumapower Incedio set to come on at high. A blast 240 lumens in the drunks eyes will certainly make him fall back long enough for her to run.
How about this. She is walking down a dark street and suspects that the man behind is following her, she turns around and lights him up. If he is a mugger, chances are he’s now going to think twice about attacking her.
Perhaps she has to walk down a dark alleyway and there are rubbish bins, boxes, lots of dark shadows… The ability to light up the shadows so that she can see there is nobody ‘lying in wait’ will give her peace of mind.
As the post before said, they are good against animals and a moments distraction for people ( Both I have experience of.) but sometimes a moments distraction is all you need.
I say, give here a small 240 lumen light for her to carry in her hand. Maybe it will help a bit. Running shoes and fast reflexes wouldn’t do any harm either.

Screaming, using an attack alarm, etc, is nothing more than an attempt to pawn off the responsibility of personal safety on another person. Each individual is responsible for his/her own safety. It's the same way in the US and, well, everywhere else I am aware of. People need to be ready, willing and able to meet that responsibility themselves because unless there happens to be an officer of the law nearby they will likely be on their own.


Plus an experienced or knowledgeable mugger can stifle a scream in a hurry. Strike to the throat, knock the wind out, etc.



A flashlight is, at least, a step in the right direction.

 

[the.Mtn.Man]

I still can't fathom the idea that people think a torch can protect them, I really can't. Either you can fight or you can't...

Agreed. Blinding someone is only an advantage if it's immediately followed up by a hard punch to the jaw

 

[the.Mtn.Man]

Regrettably self defence in the UK will not allow you have anything on you which would or could be used as a weapon and that as a broad definition could be used to describe almost anything in a woman's handabg!

The way you describe it, even punching an assailant could get you in legal trouble. So what are you Brits supposed to do, just stand there and let yourselves get beat up and robbed?

 

[Warp]

The way you describe it, even punching an assailant could get you in legal trouble. So what are you Brits supposed to do, just stand there and let yourselves get beat up and robbed?

I don't think you want to know the honest answer to that question.

 

[the.Mtn.Man]

I haven't a clue whether the following that I write is within the bounds of the rules or not but I think it might be ok so anyway, I have the following to add to my first post on this subject where I said that I cannot fathom someone relying on a light to protect them:

1. A "mugger" generally exists in an urban type area and will surely not attack in conditions where it is totally dark and he can't see his victim. There will likely be some low light afforded by streetlight or similar even if that light is a long way away so he will surely have at least a dim view of his "target"

2. A Quark 2 x 123 turbo has supposedly 230 lumens or thereabouts.

3. I decided to test for myself this theory about blinding light.

4. I chose my hallway. It's dim but not so dark that I can't see the "victim" (in this case my wife) who held in her hands my Quark Turbo set on max and was given instructions that when I approached her she was to shine it directly in my eyes and keep it there.

5. I approached my wife with a view to "attacking" her and she used the torch. I grabbed her hand to remove the threat of the "illumination weapon" (I chose to only grab rather than smash it away as I would ordinarily choose because I didn't want to hurt my wife).

6. The torch light actually gave me the precise target to aim for at when trying to disable the light source (obviously). It didn't take long.

7. While the light was upon my eyes I could not see my "victim" (wife).

8. As soon as I forced the light away I saw a large spot in my vision but was still able to look through it to see clearly my "victim's" head. I'm still seeing the spots now as I type but am also still able to see "through" them to see my words.

9. Sorry, but my conclusion is that if I'm mugging you then the lumens of a handbag sized light at close quarters aren't going to stop me. You'll actually need to know how to fight or else perhaps be retreating fast out of reach.

PS And just before pressing "submit" on this post, I also tried the whole scenario again on stobe and that had even less "blinding" effect.

The thing with this is that you were obviously expecting to get blinded and were prepared for it. I think most people caught by surprise by a bright light would instinctively look away or make some move to protect their eyes, but that would only be a temporary advantage and the victim would need a "Step 2" plan of action rather than expecting the light alone to serve as a deterrent.

 

[bullettproof]

Trying to blind someone for self defense is just going to **** them off.You have to have something else besides a flashlight to back you up.

I suggest this flashlight pkg very nice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D99NHb6B03s

 

[Greg G]

Having a good bright light in a defensive situation cannot hurt. It is but one tool in the tool box.

 

[J_C]

It can hurt, it is a moment in time you used to draw a flashlight instead of doing something else instead.

 

[SureAddicted]

To all those who are recommending flashlights, what if the event occurred during the day under bright sunlight, also, the perpetrator would be probably wearing a disguise to hide his identity, which probably means he'd be wearing sunnies. You need to take all these facts into consideration, and stop providing people with a false sense of security.
The only thinig I can recommend other than sd lessons is stoppared, BUT, and only but if you train with it. When officers carry eqiupment, being a firearm, mace or baton, they usually train and become proficient with it. The same should be for the general public. Being able to judge how far the stoppared goop will throw, when to use it, when not to use it, being able to hold it under a stressful situation, etc etc etc.

 

[Warp]

To all those who are recommending flashlights, what if the event occurred during the day under bright sunlight, also, the perpetrator would be probably wearing a disguise to hide his identity, which probably means he'd be wearing sunnies. You need to take all these facts into consideration, and stop providing people with a false sense of security.
The only thinig I can recommend other than sd lessons is stoppared, BUT, and only but if you train with it. When officers carry eqiupment, being a firearm, mace or baton, they usually train and become proficient with it. The same should be for the general public. Being able to judge how far the stoppared goop will throw, when to use it, when not to use it, being able to hold it under a stressful situation, etc etc etc.

Hell, when police officers get trained for pepper spray they actually get sprayed with it.


In an idea situation anybody who carries pepper spray would get hit with before doing so. After all, it is entirely possible that it wil be taken and used against you or, if nothing else, you will suffer blowback or some other form of exposure. It is good to know what to expect and how to deal with it. It will also tell you a lot about how somebody you use it on will react.



<---Has taken a full hit from Sabre. That stuff is EVIL

 

[SureAddicted]

Hell, when police officers get trained for pepper spray they actually get sprayed with it.


In an idea situation anybody who carries pepper spray would get hit with before doing so. After all, it is entirely possible that it wil be taken and used against you or, if nothing else, you will suffer blowback or some other form of exposure. It is good to know what to expect and how to deal with it. It will also tell you a lot about how somebody you use it on will react.



<---Has taken a full hit from Sabre. That stuff is EVIL

I wasn't referring to training to being sprayed with the stuff. I'm guessing the stoppared would propel out of the can with great force, no one expects that. Secondly, does it come out as a thin beam or wide spread beam, thirdly how far do you need to be from the bg to douse him in the goop?
You bought up a good point about it being entirely possible that it will be taken and used against you, that can apply to anything, knifes, guns, mace, batons etc. That's why I still stand by saying that taking sd lessons is your best bet.

 

[Justin Case]

It can hurt, it is a moment in time you used to draw a flashlight instead of doing something else instead.

No law of physics prevents you from drawing the light and moving at the same time. Or drawing the light while issuing a verbal command. Etc etc.

If you waited too long and inappropriately drew the light when you should have done something else like cover or deflect a blow, that's not the fault of the light. That's a training issue. Get training along with the light.

If the light is to be carried with a handbag, I'd probably get one that has an tall, skinny, outer pocket and then insert the light vertically into that pocket. This should help with rapid access. A flashlight clip might be useful to hold the light in place. Thus, something along the lines of a SureFire C2 Centurion with a Malkoff M60 could work well. If a slimmer light is needed, I'd consider a SureFire L4 with the Seoul P4 emitter (not the floodier Lux V). If the additional price is not a barrier, I'd get a Malkoff VME bezel for the L4 and load the light with a Malkoff M60.

 

[Warp]

I'd be interested in reading some kind, any kind of response from the OP.