SureFire A2 - Reviewed by Outdoors-Magazine

[this_is_nascar]

I accidently ran across This tonight. I haven't read it yet, but thought I'd share it.

 

[bwaites]

Re: SureFire A2 - Reviewed by Outside Magazine

Thanks TIN!!

Nice little review. I'm trying to figure out what the other regulated incandescent is?!!!

Bill

 

[greenLED]

Re: SureFire A2 - Reviewed by Outside Magazine

yup, there are ads for it on Popular Science Magazine too. Kinda cool.

 

[deranged_coder]

Re: SureFire A2 - Reviewed by Outside Magazine

[ QUOTE ]
bwaites said:
I'm trying to figure out what the other regulated incandescent is?!!!


[/ QUOTE ]
My thoughts exactly. My understanding was that the A2 was unique as being the only regulated incandescent flashlight available.

 

[this_is_nascar]

Re: SureFire A2 - Reviewed by Outside Magazine

Me too. I had thought the A2 was the only light available to fill that nitch of being a regulated incandescent. I don't believe any of the SL Twin-Task lights are regulated. That's the 1st light I thought of when I saw that.

 

[Hoghead]

Re: SureFire A2 - Reviewed by Outside Magazine

I'm not sure what it's called, so I'll stumble through and maybe someone will know what I'm talking about.

Wasn't the military light that looks like a anglehead, but it is straight (not anglehead) reported to have a new version that is 8AA regulated in a 2D body?

***********************************************************
edit to add: js said in another thread

"I think there are other readily available (more or less) regulated incans, but I've never checked them out. There are pointers to them on Willie Hunt's LVR website. I don't know much about them or if they are even still available."

 

[LightObsession]

Re: SureFire A2 - Reviewed by Outside Magazine

Why aren't there more regulated incans? Since dimming and yellowing as batteries deplete is a major gripe of incan owners, it would seem like this feature would be a big seller. It sure pleases A2 owners. I know nothing about the electronics involved here, but it must me more difficult than regulating LEDs or I assume more manufacturers would do it.

 

[cognitivefun]

Re: SureFire A2 - Reviewed by Outside Magazine

[ QUOTE ]
LightObsession said:
Why aren't there more regulated incans? Since dimming and yellowing as batteries deplete is a major gripe of incan owners, it would seem like this feature would be a big seller. It sure pleases A2 owners. I know nothing about the electronics involved here, but it must me more difficult than regulating LEDs or I assume more manufacturers would do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It also makes sense because incans lamps last longer when they are driven with an optimized voltage, right? And incans can be slow-started as the A2 apparently does, all adding up to maximum lamp life. Maybe that's why there aren't more of these --no revenue stream for replacement lamps /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Also, I imagine the techies are more enthralled with LEDs and luxeons and so most design effort goes into these. Buyers think incans are less than leading edge. See how the A2 seems to have had slow acceptance...evidence for this theory.

 

[bwaites]

Re: SureFire A2 - Reviewed by Outside Magazine

There are some exciting lights in the near future guys.

Watch the Modified threads.

Bill

 

[Brad01]

Re: SureFire A2 - Reviewed by Outside Magazine

Thank you very much, Nascar, for posting a link to my little review. *Shameless plug for a favorite place:* Outdoors-Magazine is a great site with lots of info on outdoors stuff from many authors. There is also a active forum, focusing on outdoor gear and knives.
The "other" regulated incandescent I refer to is a Black Diamond Supernova.
Quickbeam's review is here: Supernova
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/au.gif Brad

 

[Hoghead]

Re: SureFire A2 - Reviewed by Outside Magazine

Brad,

Thanks for clearing that up for us!

 

[CM]

Re: SureFire A2 - Reviewed by Outside Magazine

[ QUOTE ]
LightObsession said:
Why aren't there more regulated incans? Since dimming and yellowing as batteries deplete is a major gripe of incan owners, it would seem like this feature would be a big seller. It sure pleases A2 owners. I know nothing about the electronics involved here, but it must me more difficult than regulating LEDs or I assume more manufacturers would do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not really more difficult. It's just that LED regulation can be had with "canned" switcher solutions whereas regulating incandescents require PWM for max efficiency. That requires some understanding of PWM and some ability to program using a micro like a PIC and knowing how to use FET's. It's true people are more enamored with high powered LED's but there's still a place for hotwire. I still grab my Surefire M6 when nothing else will do. It will be a while before LED's can approach the eye scorching ability of a good incandescent.

 

[this_is_nascar]

Re: SureFire A2 - Reviewed by Outside Magazine

I think you don't see more regulated incandescents due to the scarafice in runtime needed. You can't have regulation without scaraficing runtime. Most "normal" flashlight users would go nuts to find out that the A2 "only" has an hour (maybe) of runtime in high-mode. For those in the know (us folks) we know the trade-offs are more than worth extended runtime.

 

[greenLED]

Re: SureFire A2 - Reviewed by Outside Magazine

[ QUOTE ]
Brad01 said:
The "other" regulated incandescent I refer to is a Black Diamond Supernova.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brad, the BD Soliras is also regulated (both LED and incan), according to an e-mail I just got from their CS.

I think regulated incans are not that common for the masses because it adds to the price.

 

[Brad01]

Re: SureFire A2 - Reviewed by Outside Magazine

A look at their website reveals that GreenLed is indeed correct- the Soliras' Xenon has 3 light levels, presumably by using a regulatory circuit like that of the SuperNova.

 

[js]

Re: SureFire A2 - Reviewed by Outside Magazine

[ QUOTE ]
this_is_nascar said:
I think you don't see more regulated incandescents due to the scarafice in runtime needed. You can't have regulation without scaraficing runtime. Most "normal" flashlight users would go nuts to find out that the A2 "only" has an hour (maybe) of runtime in high-mode. For those in the know (us folks) we know the trade-offs are more than worth extended runtime.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is, in general, untrue. I assume you are basing your reasoning only on the A2 vs. other SF lights, such as the E2e and 6P?

PWM regulation of incandescents of the sort used in the A2 is over 98 percent efficient, which means that almost all of the energy in the batteries, gets delivered to the lamp, just as it does during direct drive. Regulation just lets you control how it is delivered. You do not "lose" runtime. In fact, you gain efficiency, because you can keep the lamp operating at exactly the point of highest safe efficiency, which is also the highest CCT.

The A2 "loses" runtime over other 2 cell SF lights because there are three holes in the reflector, which reduce the lumens delivered out the front, and thus mean that the lamp must be higher powered than it would otherwise need to be. And because there are 3 LEDs and a 10 ohm resistor in parallel with the incan filament all during the run. If SureFire wanted to, they could design a longer-running regulated 2x123 incan.

Anyway, if you want to take the same lamp and battery setup and regulate it--well, you can't. Because the voltage must be lower. So, you need to find a different lamp that operates at a lower voltage, but draws a higher current (and thus is about the same power). Thus, even though the A2 runs on 2 123's, if you try to direct drive the MA02 lamp on 2 123's, you will blow it. It is a lower voltage lamp than a P60, for example, but it is probably drawing more current. Anyway, you then run this different lamp right at its most efficient operating voltage and keep it there. Thus its power consumption is constant throughout the run.

Whereas, on the other hand, a direct driven incan starts out white and bright (in the best case scenario, such as a SF light) but falls in voltage over the run, but most especially at the end. As it falls in voltage (and gets more yellowy and dimmer) the lamp draws less current, and thus is taking less power from the batteries. So that the average power taken from the batteries is NOT the same as the initial, peak power level.

So, here's the deal:

1. If you want a regulated light to have the same initial brightness and ouput as an unregulated light, with both operating on the same power source, (but different lamps), then you will have less runtime but more average output because the regulated light will not dim.

2. If you want a regulated light that puts out the same average, mid-point light output, then you will actually have a longer running light, because the regulated lamp will always be operating at peak efficiency. However, this will mean that the regulated light will not be as bright at the begining, but will be brighter at the end (and will run longer).

 

[js]

Re: SureFire A2 - Reviewed by Outside Magazine

[ QUOTE ]
LightObsession said:
Why aren't there more regulated incans? Since dimming and yellowing as batteries deplete is a major gripe of incan owners, it would seem like this feature would be a big seller. It sure pleases A2 owners. I know nothing about the electronics involved here, but it must me more difficult than regulating LEDs or I assume more manufacturers would do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the answer, mostly, is that manufacturers are a conservative bunch, and will not pay for something that they don't think has a market. Despite the popularity of the A2, and the obvious interest in (and excellence of) regulated incandescents, flashlight makers just don't see it. They don't see the market. But it is there in a big way.

LED's are taking most of the R&D efforts and energies of companies. They are the future and the hot new technology. So they get the attention.

And while I'm not familiar with LED regulation, it doesn't seem to me that regulating incandescents is really that hard or complicated. In fact, the thermal mass of the filament actually makes it easier than it otherwise would be. Take the lights in your house, for instance. They are operating off of an AC voltage, which is constantly reversing direction and going through zero. Yet you don't notice it because as long as the filament is hot, it is radiating. The current only serves to HEAT it, not to directly cause light. So it's OK if it goes away for a fraction of a second, or is not perfectly smooth.

 

[cy]

Re: SureFire A2 - Reviewed by Outside Magazine

JS, can you post link to willie Hunt's website again? lot's of valuable info about PWM for incan's

do you you know if modamag's regulated 8AA to 2D adapter can be adjusted to deliver 9V?

 

[js]

Re: SureFire A2 - Reviewed by Outside Magazine

cy,

Lightbulb Voltage Regulators is Willie's site.

I don't know anything about modamag's adaptor, sorry.

 

[LightObsession]

Re: SureFire A2 - Reviewed by Outside Magazine

js,

Thanks for all of your info on regulation. I prefer the output color and beam quality of my Brinkman Maxfire rechargeable (my best incan) over any of my 1w LED lights (I don't have any 3w or 5w LED lights) and am surprised regulated incans aren't more commonly available. With people paying $300 and more for a light without regulation, I'd think they'd be willing to pay an extra $10 to $30 (I'm guessing on the added cost) for regulation. My most expensive light is only $35, so I'm just a piker in the flashlight world.

Maybe incan regulation will be more common in a couple years. Someday I hope to be able to carry a light of Surefire quality, but for now, the grandkids need food.