Surefire E1B hotspot not centered...normal?

[Swedpat]

Just got an E1B from Batteryjunction today (after 3 weeks of being backordered) and the hotspot isn't a full circle...it kind of looks like a 3/4 moon with un-even spill :sick2:. Im pretty sure this isn't how it is supposed to be. This is my first surefire LED, after owning 2 other of their lights.

I am assuming the e1b is supposed to have a symmetrical circular hotspot? If so do I call surefire now, or send it back and get an exchange from Batteryjunction?

I have three Surefires with TIR-optics: E1L and E2L AA Outdoorsmans, and E2DL Defender.
E1L and E2L AA have identical beam profiles. Against a white wall they are not perfect and actually both of them have a bit uncentered hotspot.
But E2DL actually has a perfect and centered hotspot.
Yes, the hotspots of my Outdoorsmans could be more centered(and spill more smooth of all these three lights), but I don't find this as an issue at all in practical use outdoors. My E1L, E2L AA and E2DL belong to my absolute favorites.

However I understand your reaction if you are used to smooth reflector beams and compare them at a wall.
Surefire TIR-optics provides a good throw with a wide hotspot related to their total output and head size of the light. Because the spill isn't really as bright as reflector light with same output the spill will not dazzle at the foreground(which I find often is a problem with reflector), but is still enough bright for seeing details at short distance.
This is the way I would describe the strength of Surefire TIR-optics.

Regards, Patric

 

[newless]

I've had two different E1B's and carry one everyday, all day.
Both are/were off center. I wouldn't be surprised it your replacement is the same way.

 

[Justin Case]

Reflectors are old tech, optics require R&D investment and expertise.
Remember that SureFire worked with SAIC on a DARPA project to develop non-imaging optics for LED illumination tools and has established substantial expertise in the field.
Another example of SureFire pushing the state of the art and having to create proprietary materials (cyclo-olefin polymers) and computer software do achieve what it needs.

The way I understand it was that it was SAIC's nonimaging optics expertise, their software, and their copolymer. SAIC integrated all of that with SF's flashlight expertise. Are you saying that SF did the majority of the optics, software, and copolymer development work?

 

[jimmy1970]

I've had 2 E1Bs. My first one had a perfectly centred emitter with a beautifully smooth and perfectly round hotspot - I gave this one to my Dad. My second one was terrible so it's luck of the draw I'm afraid.

James....

 

[Lapetus]

I've had two different E1B's and carry one everyday, all day.
Both are/were off center. I wouldn't be surprised it your replacement is the same way.

Sounds like some poor quality control.

 

[Size15's]

The way I understand it was that it was SAIC's nonimaging optics expertise, their software, and their copolymer. SAIC integrated all of that with SF's flashlight expertise. Are you saying that SF did the majority of the optics, software, and copolymer development work?

The DARPA project with SAIC's expertise and experience with TIR optics seeded them as a viable replacement for reflectors. The optic designs SureFire as developed since have made real advances. SureFire has taken TIR optics from viable to desirable, from rapidly fielded prototypes to 'mass-production' products.

 

[Size15's]

Sounds like some poor quality control.

It could easily be that SureFire have different priorities :shrug:

 

[Lapetus]

It could easily be that SureFire have different priorities :shrug:

The LED is either meant to be centered or not. I imagine it is meant to be centered as this would be the norm for just about every light ever made.

If so and they are coming out frequently NOT centered, then that is poor quality control.

If this was a Chinese company you would not be slow to say so I suspect.

 

[Size15's]

No. The beam from a TIR bezel is meant to be focused. When the LED is centred this is going to be easier.
The way SureFire assembles it's TIR bezels (such as the E1B) is that the LED is mounted in rear section of the bezel, and the optic is mounted in the forward section of the bezel - the two are screwed together and there will be variation as each combination of LED and optic are slightly different. It is completely normal for one beam not to look identical to the next. They are all focused individually by the assembly operative and checks are performed to ensure key performance criteria are met.

SureFire does not design these lights for perfectionist white-wall hunters. If you want aesthetic purity of beam then a SureFire TIR-based flashlight is not going to float you boat. It's designed to be used.

Of course SureFire understands that it's products appeal to a wide range of users and is well known for replacing flashlights that the user is not happy with whether it is due to the beam being substandard in practical use, or because of the beam isn't up for hunting white walls.

 

[Lapetus]

No. The beam from a TIR bezel is meant to be focused. When the LED is centred this is going to be easier.
The way SureFire assembles it's TIR bezels (such as the E1B) is that the LED is mounted in rear section of the bezel, and the optic is mounted in the forward section of the bezel - the two are screwed together and there will be variation as each combination of LED and optic are slightly different. It is completely normal for one beam not to look identical to the next. They are all focused individually by the assembly operative and checks are performed to ensure key performance criteria are met.

SureFire does not design these lights for perfectionist white-wall hunters. If you want aesthetic purity of beam then a SureFire TIR-based flashlight is not going to float you boat. It's designed to be used.

Of course SureFire understands that it's products appeal to a wide range of users and is well known for replacing flashlights that the user is not happy with whether it is due to the beam being substandard in practical use, or because of the beam isn't up for hunting white walls.

I think most manufacturers design their lights to be used... as lights.

They just seem to think the hot spot of a beam should be in the middle...:laughing:

Making a nice symmetrical beam would be an easy thing one would think, especially for the makers of "the world's finest illumination tools" :shakehead

 

[Size15's]

Perhaps we're not referring to the same beam phenomenon. Do you have any beam shots?

 

[Justin Case]

The DARPA project with SAIC's expertise and experience with TIR optics seeded them as a viable replacement for reflectors. The optic designs SureFire as developed since have made real advances. SureFire has taken TIR optics from viable to desirable, from rapidly fielded prototypes to 'mass-production' products.

Ok, but that seems quite different from what your wrote or implied originally.

 

[Justin Case]

No. The beam from a TIR bezel is meant to be focused. When the LED is centred this is going to be easier.
The way SureFire assembles it's TIR bezels (such as the E1B) is that the LED is mounted in rear section of the bezel, and the optic is mounted in the forward section of the bezel - the two are screwed together and there will be variation as each combination of LED and optic are slightly different. It is completely normal for one beam not to look identical to the next. They are all focused individually by the assembly operative and checks are performed to ensure key performance criteria are met.

SureFire does not design these lights for perfectionist white-wall hunters. If you want aesthetic purity of beam then a SureFire TIR-based flashlight is not going to float you boat. It's designed to be used.

Of course SureFire understands that it's products appeal to a wide range of users and is well known for replacing flashlights that the user is not happy with whether it is due to the beam being substandard in practical use, or because of the beam isn't up for hunting white walls.

I find this explanation quite surprising. If SF is so cutting edge , why wouldn't their E1B design or assembly method include a natural "stop" and natural centering when the top half gets screwed down into the bottom half, such that the emitter always is positioned in the same place? Your description makes it sound like tolerances are widely varying such that it requires hand fitting to focus each E1B, resulting in beam variations for each light.

If you are saying that SF's machining, optics manufacturing, and/or final assembly procedures don't have the required tolerances to put the LED die at the proper focus point each time, then something seems desperately wrong especially coming from a company with roots in the laser industry, where precision optical alignment is a must.

 

[Size15's]

I don't see the difference. The Darpa project has been over for years. We've discussed the DEF models and the spinoffs here on CPF. SureFire has developed ever better optics since and continues to do so. One of the most important aspects of Darpa projects is to bring together the very best American organisations and push forward emerging technology and concepts to new places that no single organisation could do so alone, or so quickly. To go from concept to product, from aspiration to application.

SureFire played host to SAIC optics and LumiLeds LEDs in the Darpa project because SureFire are experienced and capable of integrating the cutting edge engineering into products. The applications from the research project are now obvious with the Vampire models being the success story

 

[Size15's]

Seems you'd do well showing SureFire and the flashlight industry how to do LED optics since you see such scope for improvements in how SureFire is doing things.

 

[Snow]

There are other manufacturers who achieve perfectly centered emitters in every light. No need for a snide comment.

 

[Lapetus]

slow forum...double post

 

[Lapetus]

There are other manufacturers who achieve perfectly centered emitters in every light. No need for a snide comment.

To be honest, the odd off centre emitter/wonky beam on a white wall is something I would not accept from all but the most cheap, budget lights, which I would not buy anyway.

It does happen on other lights too from time to time.

The problem Surefire has is that they charge far more than just about all other manufacturers, AND they choose to refer to themselves (modestly) as makers of "the world's finest illumination tools"

You really do set yourself up for some criticism by doing this. Unless of course, you get things spot on and do them better than everyone else which, clearly, they don't.

They come under some heavier criticism on here often, I think a lot because of this. This is understandable. I would be more expectant of any item that costs twice as much as competitors'.

They also have many fans, who are unwavering in their dogged defence of the company and all it does, no matter what points are raised against them.

 

[Size15's]

There are other manufacturers who achieve perfectly centered emitters in every light. No need for a snide comment.

Strong assertion. Lights with optics such as?

 

[Acid87]

They also have many fans, who are unwavering in their dogged defence of the company and all it does, no matter what points are raised against them.

There are also some haters that seem to have a real issue with Surefire. Your popping up in a few threads with some strong words about your hatred for their products. Possibly a disgruntled employee? Chill out buddy.