Surefire explosion

[MorePower]

MorePower, I don't think you have to bow out of the thread, nor be coy about working for Rayovac in Madison as a chemical engineer.

I think I really do have to bow out of this thread, as after this post I don't feel that I have anything more constructive to add to it. I know my logic is sound, based on my personal and professional experience, as well as the underlying electrochemistry, physics, and mechanical design of these cells. At this point, it seems as if I won't be able to convince you of that, so I'm not going to take any more of my time attempting to do so. I'm going to avoid the classic problem depicted in xkcd comic 386.

Rather than surreptitiously throwing your credentials around as a sine qua non for incontrovertible assertions, since the hallmark of CPF is learning from each other, why not give some authoritative sources to explain what you are saying? 🙂

I'm trying to help people learn, but all I'm getting is questions and demands to prove my statements. While I'd love to give you authoritative sources, I'm unable to do so because the raw data to which I have access is not freely available for distribution. I'm sure you can understand the reasons, what with you discovering my not-so-secret identity.

Yeah, I was more using that kneejerk parameter as it relates to Li-Ion cells. However, I am still asserting that cells reach exhaustion/depletion at different rates in series, until proven otherwise. If it turns out I was wrong, no problem.

Then it would appear that the basis for your assertion is spurious. I stand by my statement that if cells in series have different remaining capacities at the end of discharge, it is because they started with different capacities.

For example, it seems logical that externally heating a primary cell (i.e. in series--cell closer to the light source) would have an effect on the rate of unproductive chemical reactions within the electrolyte.

I have questions of the effect of heat on the structural distribution and isolation of electrolytic and separator components, as well as possible development of spurious electrical pathways (micro electrical shorts) resulting in direct electron passage from adjacent cells, bypassing some of the "one lithium atom=one electron" chemical reactions.

You are correct that heating a cell can have an affect on self-discharge. The temperature to which a cell is heated and the amount of time it is held at the elevated temperature are the two most important parameters. In a high power light, the temperatures reached and the amount of time the cells are at that temperature are not significant contributors to self discharge. I have seen results after storage of CR123A cells for 2 weeks at 140F resulting in a capacity loss of 0.4%. This is obviously a more difficult storage condition than is reached in use in most lights. I apologize for not being able to share the raw data.

"Direct electron passage" will not occur unless there is internal shorting. If there is internal shorting, the lithium tends to quickly react at the point of dendritic penetration of the separator and the short will, in effect, heal itself. Regardless, a moderately elevated temperature doesn't tend to cause internal shorting, particularly on the timescale of usage within a light.

I don't know exactly at a structural level what is happening when heat lowers internal resistance, and how that is distributed among ohmic, capacitive, inductive resistance, and Warburg impedance within the cell, since this is just a passing hobby for me.

We may all be wrong, but given that electrons follow the path of least resistance from negative to positive, these are certainly relevant questions that seem to correlate with practical observations.

That was a lot of big terms you threw out there; I'll try to keep things simple. Heat lowers the internal resistance and improves the running voltage of most electrochemical cells by increasing both the rate of electrolyte diffusion and the rate constant, and therefore the rate, of the half-cell reactions which take place (see Arrhenius equation for a discussion of rate constant).

Unless there is internal shorting, the path of least resistance is via standard cell reactions.

You can choose to believe my statements or to disregard them, but as I said, I'm going to step out of this thread. I try to be helpful when I have knowledge to share, but I'm not going to spend any additional time trying to convince people that I know what I'm talking about. This thread has established that it's a losing battle.

 

[Nite]

Returning to the possibility that one of the three cells used in the light might have been from Battery Station, it's possible that it could have been an older B.S. battery.

While the new ones are now Made in the U.S., with tighter Q.C., it's very likely that quite a few of the older samples are still floating around.

A modern lock-out tailcap is a good investment. But someone who is not hardcore into lights isn't likely to replace the original tailcap on a 9Z that they have a great deal of confidence in.

Good point..The lockout feature on Stock SF tailcaps is a New feature less than 5 years old based on my G2 without lockout function.

the old lights without lockout are like buying a gun before they passed a law that a gun must be sold with a free trigger lock.

Most agree the light must have been on or turned on accidentally. SO its not his fault if he didnt even know an upgrade was available.

There are some possibilities here that include the light NOT being on. In this very forum I read about more than one light, a pelican or two, that exploded after use. Possible cell reversal.

The amount of heat and fire and destruction of evidence makes the cause a bit of a mystery. I guess this is the ultimate worst case scenario and it makes all of us feel vulnerable because its possible he did everything right! For 12 years without incident! or he made a human error which we are all also vulnerable too.

the worst part is we wont know the first few things that happened to this light to get his historic result, unless we ask....and we still may never know.

I wanna know why the SF thermal protection circuit failed to prevent this near disaster.

He couldve been killed if hit by the light in chest or head, or his home burned down if not at work on concrete and cinderblock.

WHy doesnt someone here join that forum and ask the guy, what he did after taking photos...the OP of this thread is member there I gather.

Did he contact SF< was the light on? Did he maybe use mixed level or brands of cells?

Did he find out what happened?

The people on that forum are way off base by saying lithium and water reacted. 😗The guy didnt just climb out of a lake either.😉

I hear all you have to do to make these cells explode is hit em with a hammer and throw em and watch. Not throw them into water.

 

[Size15's]

Good point..The lockout feature on Stock SF tailcaps is a New feature less than 5 years old based on my G2 without lockout function.

SureFire had a big change in about 2001 (I'm sure it's possible get a more precise date) that saw LockOut TailCaps as standard. The only model not to be updated at that time was the G2 which took several more years before it became standard.

I wanna know why the SF thermal protection circuit failed to prevent this near disaster.

AFAIK, all USA-manufactured CR123A batteries feature a PPTC (Polymeric Positive Temperature Coefficient) device which is a resettable fuse to protect against over current or over temperature.
From what I can gather normally this would deform but on rare occasions it can shrink resulting in an internal short.

 

[Size15's]

The A2L and LX2 boxes were at my office under my desk :thinking:

Both were supplied with "Warning: Read First" leaflet (71-01-037) - Where there is light, there is heat...". Amongst other advice 6. states "Remove batteries from flashlight before storing or transporting. Read operator's manual for safe battery handling procedure."

The manuals for the A2L (Revision B-01 7-2009) and the LX2 (Revision A 6-2009) have sections on the LockOut TailCap that suggests using it to disable the flashlight to avoid accidental activation during storage. The LX2 manual goes further to include transportation along with storage.

There's a big section on Battery Replacement:
"Unscrew the tailcap and insert new batteries with positive ends towards the LED assembly..."
and
"WARNING: Lithium batteries can explode or cause burns if disassembled, shorted, recharged or exposed to fire or high temperatures. Do not mix with used batteries or other battery types, or install backwards. Do not purchase counterfeit or off-brand batteries which can combust or vent resulting in damage to your light and possible injury; their use can void your warranty. Batteries marked "photo" or "camera" are unsuitable for use in flashlights. Buy competitively priced SureFire lithium batteries from www.surefire.com or authorized SureFire reseller since they are manufactured to strict quality standard for use in high-drain devices and contain built-in fault and heat protection. Or purchase Panasonic(R), Energizer(R), or Duracell(R) batteries which also ensure the safe performance of your SureFire light. Visit www.surefire.com/batterysafety for more information"

I'd be interested to know whether other recently new from SureFire models have this improved information.

 

[Nite]

im glad im learning so much in this thread.

wow, working for Rayovac in Madison as a chemical engineer is pretty impressive from my hobbyist point of view.

some of what you guys are talking about is pretty over my head..but if I read carefully I am learning.

I like hearing ALL points of view.

It makes me sad to see people getting upset or emotional during such an excellent debate.

 

[Nite]

SureFire had a big change in about 2001 (I'm sure it's possible get a more precise date) that saw LockOut TailCaps as standard. The only model not to be updated at that time was the G2 which took several more years before it became standard.


AFAIK, all USA-manufactured CR123A batteries feature a PPTC (Polymeric Positive Temperature Coefficient) device which is a resettable fuse to protect against over current or over temperature.
From what I can gather normally this would deform but on rare occasions it can shrink resulting in an internal short.

thanks for the info on the Lockout function, had no idea they did it that way...later on G2s? why take that risk?

I once called them to tell them my lockout was broken, they said it was new feature..thats how i found out about the lockout being new.

Could the PPTC scenario you just described be a possible cause of the fire? :thinking:

 

[DimeRazorback]

I'm with Size15's

I've always received warnings about lithium batteries with my Surefires :shrug:

 

[Size15's]

thanks for the info on the Lockout function, had no idea they did it that way...later on G2s? why take that risk?

I was disappointed it took SureFire so long to make the LOTC standard on the G2. It was something I bugged them about right from the beginning.

 

[Nite]

Wow CPF has it all...Battery experts, Bulb experts, The best flashlight designers, the most copied also.

awesome

 

[McGizmo]

Morepower,
Thank you for your participation and the information you have provided. I appreciate it and I certainly appreciate the confidence some of your comments return to my perception of the general and typical safety of these multi cell lights.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Both were supplied with "Warning: Read First" leaflet (71-01-037)

Al, I got that exact insert with my E2D that I bought directly from SF in Jan 2009. First time I have seen it. I have not purchased any SF lights since the E2D.

The manual from my E2D Rev A 3-2008 has this variation from what you quoted, and is the entire listing on the subject of batteries in the manual:

"BATTERY REPLACEMENT: Unscrew the LED head assembly and insert new battery (side note-there are two cells used) with positive terminal towards LED assembly. Replace LED head assembly and rotate clockwise until tight. Depress tailcap switch to test.
​

WARNING: Lithium batteries can explode or cause burns if disassembled, shorted, recharged or exposed to water, fire, or high temperatures. Do not place loose batteries in a pocket, purse, or other container containing metal objects, mix with used or other battery types, or store with hazardous or combustible materials. Do not put in backwards. Store in cool, dry, ventilated area. Follow applicable laws and regulations for transport and disposal.

For more details on recycling this product, pleast contact your local city or county government, your waste disposal service, the retailer where you purchased this product, or visit one of the many recycling sources available online."
​

So while it is a step up from my L2, M4, & M6 which had zero warnings, it is still not as complete as your more recent one.

.

 

[LuxLuthor]

I think I really do have to bow out of this thread, as after this post I don't feel that I have anything more constructive to add to it. I know my logic is sound, based on my personal and professional experience, as well as the underlying electrochemistry, physics, and mechanical design of these cells. At this point, it seems as if I won't be able to convince you of that, so I'm not going to take any more of my time attempting to do so. I'm going to avoid the classic problem depicted in xkcd comic 386.

You mistake basic questioning, including the presentation of the specific basis upon which my propositions are held as unshakable rejection, rather than a process of ongoing education.

It's not personal, but I learned a long time ago to not blindly accept what somone in a position of scholarly authority says when the evidence for their claim is their own scholarly authority.

Edit: Also Morepower, I don't ask for references to obstinately disprove you. Rather I ask because I love to read them to learn. I have previously read things that led me to my present line of thought expressed in my previous post. As a result of your posts here, I have begun to alter my beliefs on the topics you addressed. Given the ubiquitous nature and longevity of batteries as a product and research topic, it sure seems like there should be many resources available for us to learn more on these topics--without violating proprietary information. I think the only question I am left with from what you said about the heat issues and the impact on the Lithium Manganese CR123A cells is whether that maps the same way onto primary 123A cells vis-a-vis formation of dendrite shorts.

Sorry to see you leave because I found your last post extremely useful and interesting...but I got the picture, without blind acceptance, we lose the opportunity to ask questions and learn from you. A shame. Your connection with Rayovac was based upon specific responses to everything that was posted about that company, clinched by your being able to get their website changed in this post. I hope you didn't feel I was violating your privacy, if so I sincerely apologize. I join McGizmo in thanking you for your contributions to many threads here at CPF!

Love the Xkcd Comics, and especially 643.

 

[wacbzz]

Given all the talk about the use of "correct batteries" and whatnot, I became curious about my use of Streamlight batteries in my SF lights. I have a Batteries Plus next to my workplace and it's easy to go there and pick up a pack of 12 Made in the USA Streamlight 123a's.

So, I went to the SF website and found this:

Will using non-SureFire brand batteries void my SureFire warranty?
Using genuine Panasonic®, Duracell® or Energizer® batteries will not void your warranty, but using any other non-SureFire brand will void it.

(this direct quote is found here.)

Now, this of couse begs the question about 123a's made in the USA. If, as has been posted previously in this thread, there is really only one production facility in the US that produces these batteries (in Columbus, GA), why would SF impose the limit on just those brands mentioned in the quote above?

Is there in actuality more than one production plant for those batteries in the US? If not, then Shirley 🙂laughing🙂 those Streamlight and Battery Station batteries that are as well Made in the USA would ALSO be made at the same plant as those that have been OK'd by SF to use and should be OK to use in SF lights as well and NOT void the warranty. Well, at least logic says that anyway.

Because as it stands, it seems as if I may be voiding my SF warranty by using Streamlight batteries that are Made in the USA and quite possibly being made at the exact same plant as those SF batteries...:thinking: :sigh:

 

[Black Rose]

Now, this of couse begs the question about 123a's made in the USA. If, as has been posted previously in this thread, there is really only one production facility in the US that produces these batteries (in Columbus, GA), why would SF impose the limit on just those brands mentioned in the quote above?

I can see them not recommending Streamlight CR123 cells since Streamlight is their competitor.

I've seen that recommendation before and also wondered why Rayovac and the other name brand USA cells were left off the list of recommended batteries.

 

[Size15's]

I can see them not recommending Streamlight CR123 cells since Streamlight is their competitor.

Streamlight doesn't recommend SureFire batteries.
The world has gone mad :nana:

 

[wacbzz]

Streamlight doesn't recommend SureFire batteries.
The world has gone mad :nana:

I'm quite sure that you guys know what I meant. But maybe...

Anywho, CLEARLY I wasn't asking why SF doesn't recommend Streamlight batteries. I was asking why, especially with all the uproar about using only USA made batteries, would SF impose a limit on on the use of certain Made in the USA batteries and not allow for all Made in the USA batteries to be used and not void the SF warranty. Especially given that all the 123a batteries Made in the USA are produced in the same plant in Georgia...?

And more to your point Al, Streamlight doesn't "recommend" SF batteries sure, but completely unlike SF, Streamlight doesn't say that the use of SF batteries in one of their lights will void their warranty. Here's what they do say:

Streamlight recommends the use of Streamlight, Panasonic, Sanyo, or Energizer CR123A or Duracell 123 with it's non-rechargeable lithium battery products. Use of other batteries or mixing of used and new or different brand batteries may present a risk of leakage, fire, explosion and serious personal injury. Do not recharge, misuse, short circuit, improperly store or discard, disassemble or heat above 212° F (100° C). Keep away from children.

(That direct quote can be found here.)

So again I'll ask, is there another plant in the US that manufactures these batteries or are all 123a batteries produced at the same plant in GA? And if all 123a batteries are produced at this one plant, why would I - according to SF's website - be voiding my warranty by using Streamlight batteries that are both Made in the USA and made at the same plant as the vaunted SF batteries?

Perhaps I need to wait for the 2010 SF catalog to come out to explain this to me? I'm sure it would be on the same page as was expected in the 2009 catalog explaining why SF doesn't put Made in the USA on their flashlights?!

 

[Size15's]

Think of it this way - the reason why Panasonic®, Duracell® and Energizer® are specifically named in addition to SureFire's own brand SF123A battery is because they are established brands that SureFire can have confidence and assurance that they will not make changes that could undermine SureFire's use of them.

Other USA-manufactured CR123A batteries are either of brands that are less well know & established, or they are not dedicated battery brands - they are brands known for other products.

If we can assume that it is not feasible or realistic to name every USA-manufactured CR123A battery then it is safer to stick with well known battery brands because they can be easily purchased from reputable retailers so as to reduce the risk of counterfeits and they have their reputations as battery brands to look after.

OEM branded batteries using brands known for other products could, conceivably switch their OEM manufacturer without notice and take their business overseas which would mean having to revise advice and potentially put out additional warnings once the change has be realised etc.
Also, there is less pressure on a non-battery brand to focus on their batteries. If there is a problem they can cut and run back to their core products.

It is also not viable for SureFire to recommend any USA-manufactured CR123A battery because leaves the field wide open to abuse from counterfeiters etc.

Best to stick with their own brand they can keep 'control' on, and the major battery brands that can be 'trusted' to keep control of themselves.

At least that's my perspective on it.

Al

 

[Size15's]

Perhaps I need to wait for the 2010 SF catalog to come out to explain this to me? I'm sure it would be on the same page as was expected in the 2009 catalog explaining why SF doesn't put Made in the USA on their flashlights?!

That was unfortunate; their catalog ran out of space. SureFire has been using "Designed and assembled in the U.S.A. of domestic and foreign components. This product qualifies as "American Made" under the Buy American Act." on their flashlight packaging for some time.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Morepower, thanks for PM conversations! :thumbsup:

wacbzz, I see it purely as a business competition issue and have only heard these 123A cells are made at the one plant. I doubt it is a coincidence that SF does not recomment SL batteries, and vice versa, while both listing a number of other brands.

Panasonic, Energizer, Duracell, and Sanyo do not make products that directly compete with SF or SL's line, so both companies can recommend neutral turf battery brands. SF's statement of violating their warranty is simply playing the game at a more cutthroat level.

It would take credible inside information to find out 100% if there are other USA plants that have sprung up to make them. No one of substance has come forth to reveal another 123A cell manufacturing location.

 

[Nite]

Think of it this way - the reason why Panasonic®, Duracell® and Energizer® are specifically named in addition to SureFire's own brand SF123A battery is because they are established brands that SureFire can have confidence and assurance that they will not make changes that could undermine SureFire's use of them.

Other USA-manufactured CR123A batteries are either of brands that are less well know & established, or they are not dedicated battery brands - they are brands known for other products.

If we can assume that it is not feasible or realistic to name every USA-manufactured CR123A battery then it is safer to stick with well known battery brands because they can be easily purchased from reputable retailers so as to reduce the risk of counterfeits and they have their reputations as battery brands to look after.

OEM branded batteries using brands known for other products could, conceivably switch their OEM manufacturer without notice and take their business overseas which would mean having to revise advice and potentially put out additional warnings once the change has be realised etc.
Also, there is less pressure on a non-battery brand to focus on their batteries. If there is a problem they can cut and run back to their core products.

It is also not viable for SureFire to recommend any USA-manufactured CR123A battery because leaves the field wide open to abuse from counterfeiters etc.

Best to stick with their own brand they can keep 'control' on, and the major battery brands that can be 'trusted' to keep control of themselves.

At least that's my perspective on it.

Al

So in laymans terms, and based on my own experience selling batteries and bulbs with liability issues, Both streamlight and SureFire Recommend Their own brands for a mix of Marketing, profit, and product liability reasons.

(If we boiled it down to just one phrase😗)

I didnt know streamlight made CR123s!


I am sure the one or Two factories Producing lithium primary CR123 Cells, in the USA and elsewhere, Label their cells with many brand names.