Surefires in CPF

[Search]

I think most people often forget why SureFire is so popular and why it's so expensive when compared to lights that seem to perform better for cheaper.

You have to look at how it was created and who the intended market was/is mainly.

They invented the small, compact, durable, bright flashlight world.

Their market IMO is and was designed for tactical/law enforcement/military/demanding professions. They took this engineering and designed civilian based lights following the same strict guidelines.

If you are in Iraq you don't want a light that can shine for a mile. Everyone knows where you are.

If you are entering a building in a hostile environment you don't want a super bright light that will blind everyone, including yourself.

If you are checking the parts of an airplane on a Navy carrier, wouldn't you rather have a light that produces just enough light to do your job with a little extended runtime?

Take these three simple scenarios and remember that in all three, they have to work flawlessly and they have to take more abuse that many MANY people on here will never encounter..

Too much light is dumb. It's for people who want to show off and not for people who need them. You don't need 100000 lumens to do 95% of the things many would encounter in their profession.

You need something that will never fail, never quit making light, and doesn't have features that would make an elder have a stroke.

Multi modes? In LE, Military, and tactical worlds, this is never going to work except for certain people.

Ramping? Why? I would never, ever want that and many follow that. If you do, go find someone who does..

700+ lumens? To show off to your friends or are you using a handheld flashlight to search for people in the ocean from a helicopter? I doubt it. (The M6 Guardian with the 500 lumen upgrade has many uses, but it's not SureFires goal to make more lumens. Does not mean they didn't cover that.)

LEDs can't produce IR light. Therefore someone still needs to make quality Incandescent lights for people using night vision devices. This is why SureFire will always manufacture them.

I can go on and on about why what SureFire is doing right now is perfect.

There are so many companies making lights that if you want SureFire to do everything, you are forgetting what happens to companies who spend little time making many things instead of much time making a few things.

I buy SureFire because it does what I need it to do for the specific job and will ALWAYS do it..

NO, and I will repeat NO, flashlight can do everything.

With companies trying to making 1 light do 10 things, they can only be living in a different reality.

I'm tired of people complaining about SureFire, go buy something else and quit whining.

 

[Lightraven]

700+ lumens? To show off to your friends or are you using a handheld flashlight to search for people in the ocean from a helicopter?

Yes and yes (not from the helicopter, it has its own light).
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CPF is a very different market than agency purchased lights for their soldiers and LEOs. I don't think anybody on CPF was saying, "You know what Surefire needs to make? A helmet light. It should have rear facing IR LEDs, in addition to blue and white forward facing LEDs." I suspect that came from the people who actually wear combat helmets.

I'll bet the Dev Gru weaponlight switch idea came from Dev Gru. I could be wrong, maybe it was CPF. Or the Ultra violet LEDs in the Beast II for examining passports by the border patrol. Or the flexi cuff cutters on their folding knives. I wasn't asking for a $400 flexi cuff cutter, I know that. What about rifle suppressors? Those are among the most esoteric items I can think of. I've never seen a suppressor in person, even among the SWAT and special forces I've trained with.

CPF is a valuable knowledge base for flashlight users and collectors, but to the extent that Surefire is dedicated to military and LE users, especially agency purchases, I don't see that CPF can tell them much that they don't already know.

 

[socom1970]

Wow... I guess there can't be even a simple poll on CPF (especially about Surefire) without someone getting upset about something.:shakehead

I've said before and I'll say it again. If you don't like Surefire products, don't buy them. There are LOTS of other lights from LOTS of other manufacturers that can be purchased. (And by companies who gear their lights towards civilians, campers, hikers, weekend warriors, whitewall hunters, mall ninjas and couch potatoes.) If you like one or more Surefire lights, but don't like some things about them, remember who their core end-users are.

We are NOT the end-users Surefire is targeting their market focus towards. Our everyday heroes in the military, law enforcement, security, aviation, etc... are the ones Surefire is mainly geared towards. Surefire exists today because that community 25+ years ago wanted something better than 2D cell lights from hardware stores and Dr. John Matthews recognized that lasers and better lights were needed badly for all of those heroes to do their job right and come home alive. Why do you think some products are on backorder or unavailable at certain times? Because they are filling orders for the military, law enforcement, etc... FIRST. As it should be, IMHO.

I want Surefire to continue making lights and other products that allow the people who fight, sweat and bleed for our freedom to do their jobs better and hopefully give them an edge over their enemies so they can come home alive, hopefully in Victory. Many of us will never need to use Surefire products to save our lives or the lives of others.

We should count ourselves very fortunate that Surefire, PK, and others closely associated to them do listen to us. I consider it an honor that PK is a flashaholic and CPF'er just like us. They do not need to listen to us. But they do. They could exist just fine without our interest. But they seek our interest anyway.

I am not a Surefire fanatic by any stretch. I appreciate their lights for what they are. The lights I like and can afford are in my collection. But, I have many other brands of lights as well as many mods and custom lights that I buy when they suit me as well. And if a Surefire or other light doesn't suit me anymore, I mod it to suit me if I can afford it, sell it, trade it, or give it to someone who I know will appreciate it.

Ok. I'm done now.🙂

By the way... I have 17 Surefires.

 

[Toohotruk]

Wouldn't be too surprised to see this thread get closed too... :shakehead

 

[bullfrog]

I'm tired of people complaining about SureFire, go buy something else and quit whining.

+1

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

+1

+2

 

[Benson]

LEDs can't produce IR light. Therefore someone still needs to make quality Incandescent lights for people using night vision devices. This is why SureFire will always manufacture them.

Nitpick: white LEDs produce almost no IR output, so you can't use a filtered white LED with IR NVG. But IR LEDs are very efficient emitters of IR, and have basically all the same advantages that white LEDs have for visual use. I understand that in some applications, a light that can be converted with a filter instead of a head swap is highly desirable, and that's likely what you meant, but your statement as it stands is patently false.

I can go on and on about why what SureFire is doing right now is perfect.

That's half the problem, IMHO. (Well, not you specifically, and not that you can, but that some people do go on and on thus. After all, you stopped after only half a page. 😉)

I'm tired of people complaining about SureFire, go buy something else and quit whining.

And they're the other half.

On one side, some people seem to have a great emotional investment in the notion that SFs are "perfect"; on the other side, people have a similar investment in the notion that SFs are worse than other lights, on account of some combination of features, output, and price.

Either group, left alone, would simply buy lights that make them happy, but once someone from one side says something unfairly denigrating or praising SFs, the other side feels compelled to set the record straight. Of course, in so doing, they go too far for the first side to stand, so they pitch in. And then it turns into a mess.

I'll be honest -- I've never actually handled a Surefire, and I definitely don't own one. (Although that'll change if/when I find a beat-up A2 for sale while I have the cash to spare...) But I can see that SFs are right for some applications, and wrong for others. Some who do own Surefires (even 17 of them!) accept that too, so it's not (as some seem to suggest) that once you hold one, you'll never buy anything else. It's just a few extremists on each side, IMHO, who get these started, and then many (ordinarily sane) people* feel the need to pile on for both sides.

SFs are right, even "perfect" (or as near as can be imagined), for some people and their lighting needs, and not at all right for others. But just because someone for whom it's right/wrong makes an over-the-top statement that it's perfect/terrible for everyone else shouldn't demand a response from everyone for whom it's wrong/right, and especially not one implying that they're horrible/perfect for everyone.


*"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." -- K, in MIB

 

[kaichu dento]

First, this is not about bashing light manufacturers at all. Maybe you didn´t understand.

Second, If I wouldn´trust SF lights, I would not use them... Another thing, I don´t remember saying about any OBLIGATION of Surefire listening CPFer´s. I just said (repeating for the fifth time) that CPFers have a knowledge about lights that average people don´t, and THIS make them a valuable opinion resource, IMHO. Period. :shrug:

Third, you can disagree with my statements (about passionate reactions when someone criticize Surefire), that´s ok. But I can recognize passionate reactions when I see them. I can point you dozens of closed threads, or reactions like "Uh oh... this thread will be closed!" just because someone start writing some critics over Surefire, or comparing Surefire with another chinese brand.

Excuse me, but do you remember about a closed thread about a comparions between Fenix and Nitecore lights? Or Fenix and EagleTac? No... neither do I.

For me, no problem at all. Like ALL manufacturers, I think Surefire has pros and cons. I can point pros and cons in EVERY light manufacturer... but, I think there are guys here that can´t point a single "cons" about Surefire.


That is the passionate reaction I was talking about.

Regards

Federal, great points you've made, but what's even more telling is the way in which others react to your statements as a SureFire supporter. You'd think your posts were a work of sacriledge, which is what a good number of posters seem to equate any criticism, no matter how mild, of their idols. :candle:

I think some of these quotes are the type of reactions you were also referring to.

I think most people often forget why SureFire is so popular and why it's so expensive when compared to lights that seem to perform better for cheaper.

I can go on and on about why what SureFire is doing right now is perfect.

I'm tired of people complaining about SureFire, go buy something else and quit whining.

Methinks he doth protesteth overly much. Go ahead folks; if it's okay to say what you like/dislike about other lights and users opinions, it's okay to do so with SureFire as well.

CPF is a valuable knowledge base for flashlight users and collectors, but to the extent that Surefire is dedicated to military and LE users, especially agency purchases, I don't see that CPF can tell them much that they don't already know.

SureFire is not manned by people from a different world and it's evident by reading through the forums that there are many here from whom SureFire could benefit and I think it's a bit insulting to the forum members to suggeest otherwise. :shakehead

Wow... I guess there can't be even a simple poll on CPF (especially about Surefire) without someone getting upset about something.:shakehead

I've said before and I'll say it again. If you don't like Surefire products, don't buy them.

Sounds like you'd like to not allow us to voice any disapproval? But then...

Wow... I guess there can't be even a simple poll on CPF (especially about Surefire) without someone getting upset about something.:shakehead

We should count ourselves very fortunate that Surefire, PK, and others closely associated to them do listen to us. I consider it an honor that PK is a flashaholic and CPF'er just like us. They do not need to listen to us. But they do. They could exist just fine without our interest. But they seek our interest anyway.

Reading these parts of your post sounds like you think that there may be some merit to our memberships opinions? I definitely think so, and also believe PK to be astute enough to recognize it as well. :wave:

Wouldn't be too surprised to see this thread get closed too... :shakehead

Hopefully not, but we'll see... oh, I ordered another E1e! 🙂

 

[Lightraven]

SureFire is not manned by people from a different world and it's evident by reading through the forums that there are many here from whom SureFire could benefit and I think it's a bit insulting to the forum members to suggeest otherwise. :shakehead

I think Surefire could benefit from the input of CPF member PK. He seems to know a lot about flashlights. CPF member Ken Good might also have some thoughts about Surefire flashlights. And CPF'er Stuart@Surefire could probably give Surefire some help.

However, the format of CPF's anonymous public forums is not really conducive to product development for the military and law enforcement, especially the very tiny niche of "special operations." Am I insulting myself, as a years long member of CPF, member of the military and LE? I shouldn't think so.

Some sites and forums require some credentials be verified. This would be an efficient way for Surefire, or other company to get rapid feedback from its target market, off-site engineers or other valued contributors. I have no reason to believe Surefire doesn't do this already.

If you were Colt, and you were designing improvements to the military rifle, would you want anonymous 14 year olds claiming to be SAS commandos telling you what they want? Yet, sifting through that chaff would be more work than simply making a trip to Fort Lewis (or wherever) and talking to the actual guys who'll use your product.

That being said, I think Surefire does keep an eye on what is going on with CPF, if for no other reason than. . .

. . . they are flashaholics, too.

 

[kaichu dento]

That being said, I think Surefire does keep an eye on what is going on with CPF, if for no other reason than. . .

. . . they are flashaholics, too.

You saved the distilling statement for last! This is all that needs said. :thumbsup:

 

[firefly99]

Why is it so difficult for CPF members to understand the following points:

a) Surefire create products for a specific market, unfortunately we on CPF is not part of that market
b) The price-points of Surefire products are very high
c) No amount of posts from online forums, will force Surefire to make products that cater to online users

wanting a favorite brand to put out lights

Show Surefire your MONEY and commission them to create a light for you.

lights that are competitive with what else is available on the market

Surefire products price are never competitive. However there are a lot of manufacturers keen to create a product that will meet your budget.

we urge them to make improvements and are disappointed when that doesn't happen

when exciting new models are promised but not delivered

It isn't always enough and it isn't always satisfactory

What are you waiting for, vote with your wallet.

I'm tired of people complaining about SureFire, go buy something else and quit whining.

+1, Search, Agreed with everything you said in your post.

 

[Search]

If anyone doesn't understand or can't justify why SureFire lights cost so much, don't have the same brightness as other flashlights, and don't have 6 modes, then that's fine. However, I think it's time to move on and find a company that meets your needs/wants.

When the day comes that SureFire quits doing exactly what it is they are doing or loses touch with who they are, my head is going to hang real low.

 

[drmaxx]

This poll just convinced me NEVER to put my hands on a Surefire! It seems that once you got hooked there is no stopping anymore!
Holy cow, less then 15% have only 1 SF light!
This is what I mean with: I can not afford to buy a (=the first) SF light! The consequences might just be way too expensive.
MUST RESIST!

 

[Federal LG]

Benson, drmaxx, if you can (in a near future), buy one. It´s expensive when compared with some lights, but they´re another category of lights, specially because of their finish (machining quality), IMHO. I have 2 Surefires, and I love them. I have a crush on 1xCR123 lights, and in this category, Surefire rules the world. You have to hold and use one, to feel the thing on your fingers... (all my personal opinion, not an universal truth)

If someone think I´m not a SF supporter, or if someone think I am bashing SF here, well, they don´t understood a single point of what I said. Patience! My hope is Admins don´t think the same, and close the thread, or ban me, or something like that.

Kaichu_dento, thanks. :wave:

 

[LED61]

Why is it so difficult for CPF members to understand the following points:

a) Surefire create products for a specific market, unfortunately we on CPF is not part of that market

I politely disagree.

There are MANY a CPF´r that is part of that market. There are professional pilots or recreational I don´t care, that need Surefire lights. There are LEO´s, some military too. Also, threre are cavers and hunters and other recreational users that use Surefire.

And Surefire sure enough has intended their lights for that market. This is substantiated by the type of advertising they do in magazines, their own catalog, and by the type of dealer network they have.

"We on CPF" could mean just about anything else except not being part of Surefire´s market.

 

[GreyShark]

If anyone doesn't understand or can't justify why SureFire lights cost so much,

I seriously doubt any SureFire fan has a problem paying for a good light. What's disappointing is when a manufacturer cheaps out on a product.

don't have the same brightness as other flashlights,

Different levels of brightness are useful for different situations but you also have to look at runtimes. The current crop of LED's could be getting more output for the same runtime or more runtime for the same output. It's purely a matter of efficiency. This is why I use Malkoff's instead of P60L's. It seems to me these two American companies could benefit from collaboration.

and don't have 6 modes,

SureFire does make multi-mode lights. In fact the U2 Ultra has 6 modes as per SureFire's website.

FEATURES

• Six selectable levels of light output from 5-watt LED

I don't see why we can't all just look at things objectively.

 

[kaichu dento]

Benson, drmaxx, if you can (in a near future), buy one. It´s expensive when compared with some lights, but they´re another category of lights, specially because of their finish (machining quality), IMHO. I have 2 Surefires, and I love them. I have a crush on 1xCR123 lights, and in this category, Surefire rules the world. You have to hold and use one, to feel the thing on your fingers... (all my personal opinion, not an universal truth)

If someone think I´m not a SF supporter, or if someone think I am bashing SF here, well, they don´t understood a single point of what I said. Patience! My hope is Admins don´t think the same, and close the thread, or ban me, or something like that.

Kaichu_dento, thanks. :wave:

No problem, I'm a supporter of rational thinkers everywhere! :thumbsup:

I seriously doubt any SureFire fan has a problem paying for a good light.

I don't see why we can't all just look at things objectively.

+1

The problem comes in when people get a soccer attitude about the things that they like and any perceived slight is sure to bring the choir out in protest. There is nothing made by man that is perfect and SureFire, despite all it's excellence is no exception.

 

[nbp]

Or we could just get back to talking about how many Surefires we all have!

😗

Anyways, I posted before when I voted for three Surefires, but now I have four 😳

I got a great deal on an L4 at a Sportsman's Warehouse liquidation sale, and well, you know how it goes :devil:

 

[Bullzeyebill]

Benson, drmaxx, if you can (in a near future), buy one. It´s expensive when compared with some lights, but they´re another category of lights, specially because of their finish (machining quality), IMHO. I have 2 Surefires, and I love them. I have a crush on 1xCR123 lights, and in this category, Surefire rules the world. You have to hold and use one, to feel the thing on your fingers... (all my personal opinion, not an universal truth)

If someone think I´m not a SF supporter, or if someone think I am bashing SF here, well, they don´t understood a single point of what I said. Patience! My hope is Admins don´t think the same, and close the thread, or ban me, or something like that.

Kaichu_dento, thanks. :wave:

Federal LG, this is your thread, and you are responsible for steering it. NBP has a point.

Bill

 

[jzmtl]

Just one, soon to be zero. I'm a lab rat (biologist) not SWAT, their design just don't suit my use as well as other brands. May or may not change in the future.