Tactical strobe..Does it work?????

[Search]

From what I've seen in the Police world, strobe is never going to make it into training for plenty of reasons that have been stated.

Jay, yes it's an idea with pros, but it's also an idea with too many cons.

When bullets fly, the best of the best sometimes make mistakes, mistakes that kill. It's easier to allow officers to carry any light that want that meets certain guildines.

In todays tactical world, under the training I've been through and witnessed, rear tail-cap, single stage are what works and what keeps people alive.

That strobe affects more people than one. Disorientating everyone isn't a good thing. That goes back to only use it when the circumstances allow.

Our SRT team is one of the best in the State (go ask the SWAT instructors in Nashville) and it would never fly. Too many problems.

I'll give you this, strobe has a good use, but it's cons outweigh it's pros in real world application.

I trust one low light tactic: Flash -> Move, Flash -> Move, Flash -> Move.

I've got many hours logged with SRT on building clearing, felony car stops, perimeter clearing, rural sweeping, etc. Half done in low light. I can guarantee you anything but a single mode light will hinder more than help.

Idea is good, practicality in LEO work not so good.

 

[Nos]

Generally strobe works.

I was on an exepition yesterday where a company presented a 40000 lumens led flooder......yes 600W and 40k.lumens!

i asked for a short presentation.......and this baby has bang!

and guess what, they had 8hz strobe programmed....... after ~3 seconds of blinding strobe ( i couldnt even look into the direction) i saw all kinds of colours and had a little trouble with any kind of orientation and my balance

some seconds later everything was fine again....and everyone in the room was looking into our direction, some amazed some really confused.....

i can tell you strobe does work... but i takes a lot more than 100 lumens to be effective

 

[Jaywalk3r]

@ Search

I think we agree on things more than you realize. The biggest difference I see is that I believe one should train and be prepared to use optimal tools in as many situations as possible, while you're advocating using the optimal tools in most cases, and using those same tools in less frequent scenarios when they may not be optimal, but will probably be adequate.

To be clear, you're not going to change my opinion. I've seen oversimplified, one size fits all solutions get people killed unnecessarily. Nor does it appear that I'm going to change yours. That's fine. At the end of the day, we are all responsible for saving our own lives. Do what you're comfortable doing.

 

[alpg88]

hey Jaywalk3r, are you a leo?

 

[Jaywalk3r]

hey Jaywalk3r, are you a leo?

Nope. Virgo.

 

[alpg88]

Nope. Virgo.

lol, good one, but i meant Law Enforcment Officer.

 

[Search]

For working the streets and dealing with people there is a place for strobe.

That officer however, would have to carry another light that was a single stage for tactical situations.

Tactical and strobe is a big no no. Normal things like dealing with drunks, bangers, idiots, etc, would be fine. As long as that light never saw tactical use.

 

[Jaywalk3r]

lol, good one, but i meant Law Enforcment Officer.

As I've previously posted in this thread, no I am not a LEO. That is why I have not offered any advice to LEO's with respect to what situations they might encounter for which strobe would be beneficial. Other veteran officers have already made such claims, and I have respected that they know more about law enforcement specific scenarios.

I'm no stranger to unexpected, high stress, life or death situations. Those are in no way exclusive to law enforcement. Nor are general principles for equipping and training for such situations. Those principles can (and should) be applied to any dangerous activity in which participants must be prepared for the unexpected.

 

[Jaywalk3r]

That officer however, would have to carry another light that was a single stage for tactical situations.

The officers should be carrying multiple lights. That's a no brainer. Two is one; one is none. I've never talked to a LEO who only carried a single light. Heck, I was talking with one last week who changes up his lights depending on what stage of a traffic stop he is in. He uses one light for his initial encounter with the driver and a different light when he returns with the ticket. I doubt that 99% of people he stops even notice the different light. Besides those two he'll have 2-3 others on his person, because, according to him, different situations call for different lights.

Having said that, the primary light should be single mode and well suited for the majority of needs, to paraphrase what I have stated previously.

 

[Lightraven]

"Tactical Situations"

Anybody want to define that for me? {Trick question!!! Don't do it!!!}

Seriously, what is it?

 

[defloyd77]

All of this talk about LEO's, backup lights and all of that kind of makes me laugh, well laugh at my local PD. They carry 2D Mags. With near dead batteries. Maybe a MiniMag as backup, most likely with dead batteries too. Bike cops use those cheap POS Bell incan headlights. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside ya know?

 

[berry580]

I have been an officer for 12 years now and all 12 have been on night shift patrol. I have been on hundreds of entries in my career and also know several members of other swat trained teams in various states. I have been to training classes for high risk entries and have also had many classes on tactical lighting usage......many classes were taught by some very high speed people with more than enough qualifications. (Feds, DOJ, Military)

In all 12 years of both actual real world patrol as well as training I have never used any strobe feature nor have I ever seen it used. I have never heard of it mentioned in training and any who I ask simply laugh and say it is actually useless.

I am not very sure how the whole strobe thing got started however it must be a very good feature to help sale lights. Honestly I can see it as a good feature as a distress beacon however for a high risk entry in a combat scenario......no one I know would even think of it. I have never, nor will I ever, use such a feature and will continue to say that simple is better every time. The more simple your lights, and other equipment, are the better they can be put to actual use.

Take it from personal experience if you have bullets headed your way and all crap is breaking loose your fine motor skills are reduced to almost nothing. It is at this time your training, and simple but effective equipment, will save your butt.

I think the above answer sound fairly decent.

I'm not a cop, but just a karateka (karate student), when someone attacks in sparring, the most basic things will save your *** 99% of the time. "Advanced blocks", flying spinning reverse super duper hook kicks won't work. Move back, move to the side, simple block is the best.

Now of course bullets zipping around you is MUCH more frightening (i can imagine). But the underlying concept is the same. If you want something to work under distress, it better be f***ing simple to use.

And point the gun + flashlight at the damn target would be the most intuitive.

i.e. "Tactical strobe" down to the core is probably a "Tactical Marketing Solution"

 

[RyanA]

There are lights with strobe that are simple to operate. This whole strobe < simple thing is kind of fallacious. They are not mutually exclusive, perhaps simple + practical, combined with stobe is. There are lights that strobe that are a point and click interface. Also, not every police officer is shot at on a day to day basis. Many can go for an entire career without drawing their gun. It is really more about how each person thinks they will use the light, and weather or not they think it will work to their advantage. Again, clearly not for gunfights. And if it was opponents would not be standing there strobing each other and firing off shots like the movies. The Mexican standoff is a myth left over from the days when guns where all sa revolvers and people shot from the hip.

 

[Jaywalk3r]

when someone attacks in sparring, the most basic things will save your *** 99% of the time.

Keep things as simple as possible, but no simpler. Being prepared 99% of the time isn't good enough when one takes risks everyday. If a LEO is only properly prepared 99% of the time, if the encounter only one life or death situation each year, over the course of twenty years, there is greater than an 18% chance that they'll end up dead by the end of the twentieth year. Those aren't very good odds when one is putting everything at risk.

 

[Search]

A normal situation in the Police world is just dealing with people, answering calls, making traffic stops, patrolling, etc, etc, etc. Pretty much everything you see on Cops.

A tactical situation in the Police world is when you have to go into a place (Building, Factory, House, Back yard, School, Forest, Graveyard, Bus, Airplane, Junkyard, etc) knowing that there are people inside who are/are possible armed. You also have to be in the mindset they want to kill you.

HOWEVER, doesn't mean you just shoot.

Normal situations the citizens know your there, your actions are just "working the beat".

Tactical situations require you to find people or look for people who you don't want to know what you are doing.

It's a SWAT team storming a barricaded mans house. It's a patrol officer chasing someone into a building for some reason and then having to find him. It's an open door and then the officers having to clear it. It's a man with a gun who ran into a wooded area.

You aren't going to go into the situations standing straight up, walking like your checking out the roses, talking about the football game.

Your going to have you body, weapons, and gear into positions where you can quickly and effectively have your sights on a person before they can you, and hopefully surprising them, so they can't do harm to you or your team.

At night, you aren't going to have your flashlight on the entire time. Your going to flash -> move, flash -> move, etc, etc, etc. in order to keep your exact location unknown so a subject can't shoot you and you not even see him.

To add a little something. In half the situations the subject/s is going to know you are there obviously so sometimes you storm places quickly with force (and sense) to overwhelm them and control them before they take action.

I'm not good at explaining.

___


The flashlight that you can twist the bezel and go into strobe modes has an overwhelming flaw. That strobe mode by twisting the bezel is in NO WAY tactical.

It's impossible to twist a bezel with a gun in the other hand. It will never be holstered until that specific situation is over and then why would you need strobe? Keeping it in that strobe mode is also very wrong because strobe is meant to be an addition to a light source, not the light source.

The ones with the side button was a good idea except for one thing.

You have to be holding the light in your hand with your thumb on the switch to be able to activate it easily. Easy is better, no complicated finger moves or it's no longer tactical.

It would also mean only one hand holding the gun and you just lost accuracy. If you can't hit your targer.. then why did you even sign up for this.

Using the Rogers/SureFire technique, which is dominant from what I've seen, you can't hit the side button on purpose. You can hit it on accident and if you didn't even want light, your position is blown and your team is going to kick you in the ***..

 

[Search]

Keep things as simple as possible, but no simpler. Being prepared 99% of the time isn't good enough when one takes risks everyday. If a LEO is only properly prepared 99% of the time, if the encounter only one life or death situation each year, over the course of twenty years, there is greater than an 18% chance that they'll end up dead by the end of the twentieth year. Those aren't very good odds when one is putting everything at risk.

Whoever calculated that has never been a cop.

I told my instructor one day I wanted to train more before I hit the streets because I wanted to be prepared.

His answer was if you find a cop in this country who is prepared for a lot of the things they come across, no matter how long they've been here, you will be the first.

In his 12 years he said he still doesn't know what he is doing when he goes on some calls.

A good saying is that Murphy sits in a Police Officers lap. If it can go wrong, it is in this line of work.

I think you were talking about equipment and tactics, and yes I would hope everyone is 100 percent prepared. However, the only thing cops are 100% prepared for is the fact that they could die at any given time.

No situation is like another and because of that, you can't be 100% prepared for everything.

You are right and wrong in a way. It's a tricky thing. Officers are prepared and aren't prepared. Overcome and adapt fills in the rest of the percentage.

"You go to the Academy to learn what you need to pass the Academy, but you go to work to learn your job. Your job is never going to stop changing, and your never going to stop learning it."

 

[Justin Case]

A normal situation in the Police world is just dealing with people, answering calls, making traffic stops, patrolling, etc, etc, etc. Pretty much everything you see on Cops.

A tactical situation in the Police world is when you have to go into a place (Building, Factory, House, Back yard, School, Forest, Graveyard, Bus, Airplane, Junkyard, etc) knowing that there are people inside who are/are possible armed. You also have to be in the mindset they want to kill you.

HOWEVER, doesn't mean you just shoot.

Normal situations the citizens know your there, your actions are just "working the beat".

Tactical situations require you to find people or look for people who you don't want to know what you are doing.

It's a SWAT team storming a barricaded mans house. It's a patrol officer chasing someone into a building for some reason and then having to find him. It's an open door and then the officers having to clear it. It's a man with a gun who ran into a wooded area.

You aren't going to go into the situations standing straight up, walking like your checking out the roses, talking about the football game.

Your going to have you body, weapons, and gear into positions where you can quickly and effectively have your sights on a person before they can you, and hopefully surprising them, so they can't do harm to you or your team.

At night, you aren't going to have your flashlight on the entire time. Your going to flash -> move, flash -> move, etc, etc, etc. in order to keep your exact location unknown so a subject can't shoot you and you not even see him.

To add a little something. In half the situations the subject/s is going to know you are there obviously so sometimes you storm places quickly with force (and sense) to overwhelm them and control them before they take action.

I'm not good at explaining.

___


The flashlight that you can twist the bezel and go into strobe modes has an overwhelming flaw. That strobe mode by twisting the bezel is in NO WAY tactical.

It's impossible to twist a bezel with a gun in the other hand. It will never be holstered until that specific situation is over and then why would you need strobe? Keeping it in that strobe mode is also very wrong because strobe is meant to be an addition to a light source, not the light source.

The ones with the side button was a good idea except for one thing.

You have to be holding the light in your hand with your thumb on the switch to be able to activate it easily. Easy is better, no complicated finger moves or it's no longer tactical.

It would also mean only one hand holding the gun and you just lost accuracy. If you can't hit your targer.. then why did you even sign up for this.

Using the Rogers/SureFire technique, which is dominant from what I've seen, you can't hit the side button on purpose. You can hit it on accident and if you didn't even want light, your position is blown and your team is going to kick you in the ***..

With all due respect, your CPF profile says you are 20 yo, and thus aren't even old enough to legally buy a handgun in the US yet. So, just what is your world experience to be able to say with authority that the cigar flashlight method is "dominant" from what you've seen? You've seen it all?

And to say only search, entries, and the like are "tactical situations", while everything else is not is patently false. Ever hear of the "routine traffic stop" that wasn't? Yet, you put traffic stops in the non-tactical situation category.

Everything involves tactics. Ever position your vehicle at an angle to provide more cover if necessary? Position yourself to the side of the driver, not squarely in front of him? Use your vehicle lights to illuminate the stopped vehicle interior and to get some light reflecting off his mirrors so that his view of your approach is degraded? When you talk with someone, ever use a bladed stance, perhaps combined with the "Jack Benny" arm positioning? Tactics.

Re: one handed shooting. You had better practice it. There is no guarantee that you will have two hands available. Since cop hit rates presumably with 2 hands is already at around 20%, it seems to me that any complaints about inability to make hits with one handed shooting miss the point.

Not sure what kind of side button light you are talking about. If you are talking about the old Maglites and similar lights, you can use the Chapman method and get just as good of a two-hand hold on the gun as with the cigar method.

Re: bezel twist interface. I note that your sig line includes the Fenix PD30, which uses this exact UI. I also note that the PD30 has a Turbo mode that includes Turbo and Strobe. So once you select that mode (ahead of time), you can operate in Turbo exclusively if you so choose. If you want Strobe, you soft-press the tailcap button. To get back to Turbo, soft-press again. No further bezel twists necessary. So, the knock on the bezel twist UI really depends on how it is designed.

I also note that the PD30 can tailstand because it has a recessed tailcap button. Kind of makes it more difficult for the cigar method, doesn't it? If you are going to carry a light, it might be a good idea that its operating characteristics match those of your other lights. Otherwise, you are going to be in for a rude surprise when you can't switch to your favorite light because of exigent circumstances and have to go with what you have in-hand. Operational consistency IMO is part of your "simplicity" argument.

FYI, flash, move, flash, move is a version of strobing. The strobe rate can be moderately fast, say 4-5 Hz, or slow, say 0.5-1 Hz. And as you say, strobing can be useful "in order to keep your exact location unknown so a subject can't shoot you".

Also, strobing doesn't mean that there has to be a dedicated strobe function built into the flashlight. For a long time, we used manual tailcap presses on our SureFires.

 

[Jaywalk3r]

The flashlight that you can twist the bezel and go into strobe modes has an overwhelming flaw. That strobe mode by twisting the bezel is in NO WAY tactical.

It's impossible to twist a bezel with a gun in the other hand. It will never be holstered until that specific situation is over and then why would you need strobe? Keeping it in that strobe mode is also very wrong because strobe is meant to be an addition to a light source, not the light source.

You keep tearing down the same straw man to make your argument.

 

[Jaywalk3r]

Whoever calculated that has never been a cop.

LMAO! Please, tell us how a cop would make the calculation. Your statement implies that all cops are unable to make simple mathematical calculations.

If you want to claim that cops are prepared for more than 99% of the situations they encounter, then yes, that would imply that their chance of survival is higher. But with one encounter with a 99% chance of survival each year for twenty years or until an officer dies, whichever comes first, there is greater than an 18% probability that the officer will die in the line of duty within twenty years.

I told my instructor one day I wanted to train more before I hit the streets because I wanted to be prepared.

His answer was if you find a cop in this country who is prepared for a lot of the things they come across, no matter how long they've been here, you will be the first.

It doesn't look as though you're arguing that the police are prepared more than 99% of the time.

Officers are prepared and aren't prepared. Overcome and adapt fills in the rest of the percentage.

That's a significant change from what you've previously advocated in this thread. Overcome and adapt is what I (and others) have been advocating. Lack of preparation for the sake of simplicity is foolhardy.

 

[Lightraven]

WARNING!!! Trick question!
Answer if you dare. Get 1 point for balls if you answer, 1 point for experience/wisdom if you don't. Everyone's a winner! Answer appears next Lightraven post.

Tactical Situations?

1. Sitting in your patrol vehicle at midnight, drinking coffee, listening to AM radio (Art Bell, probably) somewhere on your beat.

2. Vehicle stop for a possible non violent felony that is often not prosecuted.

3. Uniformed officer driving down the road, sees suspicious activity involving a SUV and numerous people who match a profile/don't belong to a high crime area. Does a U turn to check it out.

4. Chasing a possible felon, on foot, in the dark.

5. Multi agency hunt for an active shooter who has killed two LEOs and 2-3 citizens.

6. A police chief enters a briefing room to make a question/answer session to a room filled with armed officers of his agency. Tells them no raises because, "We can hire and retain people with what we pay now, so there probably will be no raise."