thank you for shopping at kmart. your going to jail

treek13 · Aug 22, 2002

Originally posted by Cutter:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by darell:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cutter:
I'm a law abiding citizen.

Hey Dan -

I'm always interested in this one. What the heck does this mean? Do you NEVER drive 56mph in a 55 zone? Always come to a *complete* stop at every stop sign? Always use the cross-walk, and wait for the little green walking man? Never take an extra bananna from the breakfast buffet for "later." Ever sneak a soda into the movies? Top off your gas tank? Drive home after you've had a beer or two with dinner? Drive down to the neighbor's house without putting on your seatbelt?

As far as I'm concerned, it is IMPOSSIBLE to live a full life without breaking some (many?) laws somewhere. We've all broken laws that we didn't even know existed. I'm sure that I've illegally "loitered" in a parking lot, in fact. Didn't mean to, but I'm sure it happened all the time when I was in high school.

Just wanted to bring up something new, lest this lively thread begins to wane....<hr /></blockquote>Ahh...leave it to Darell to light the fire again.

First, let me start by saying....of course I've done some of these things. However, let me take your issues one by one.

When I say that I am a "Law Abiding Citizen", it doesn't mean I've never broken the law. What I mean by that is....if I do break the law (and never on purpose

)....I accept the consequences of my actions and don't stand around griping and whining about it.

Now for the list:

Do you NEVER drive 56mph in a 55 zone?
Of course I do....but if I get a ticket, who's fault is it?....not the cops....it's mine, and I pay the ticket.

Always come to a *complete* stop at every stop sign?
Again, I'm sure I roll through a few every now and then....but again....my fault if I get a ticket...and NOBODY else's.

Always use the cross-walk, and wait for the little green walking man?
Again, same answer as above.

Never take an extra bananna from the breakfast buffet for "later."
Actually...no...I never have.

Ever sneak a soda into the movies?
Again.....no.....I'm one of the idiots that actually pays $5 for their cokes.

Top off your gas tank?
This could mean a couple of different things, but if I do it and it's illegal and I get nailed, then it's certainly my own fault.

Drive home after you've had a beer or two with dinner?
Yep I've done this....and if I get a DUI or something worse happens, it's nobody's fault but my own. Not the bartenders....not the car manufacturers....and certainly not the police officers.

Drive down to the neighbor's house without putting on your seatbelt?
No on this question....I'm one of those people that feels naked without a seatbelt on...no matter how short the trip is.

I'm not afraid to admit that I've done some wrong things in my life and made some mistakes....but I'm also man enough to accept the consequences when they come down on my head.

One of the basic fundamentals of our laws is that ignorance of the law is NO EXCUSE. If you break the law....but didn't know you were breaking a law....you are still held responsible. This keeps every idiot out there from committing crimes and then just saying he didn't know it was wrong.

Nuff said,
Dan out<hr /></blockquote>"Do you NEVER drive 56mph in a 55 zone?
Of course I do....but if I get a ticket, who's fault is it?....not the cops....it's mine, and I pay the ticket."

Originally posted by Cutter:
No Treek13......you need to READ MY OWN POSTS....and open both eyes this time. Someone else posted the 56 mph question to me.......it DID NOT COME FROM ME. SO, YOU ARE WRONG. But if I got a ticket from it...then so be it....because 55 mph is the law.

And you want to read the latest link before you stick both feet in your mouth.

edit**** It certainly is illegal Treek13....it's called disturbing the peace and unlawful assembly. How do you not get arrested more???

I'm pretty sure I see the information I referred to under "Originally posted by Cutter:" and expounded on below the part "Originally posted by Darell:" so indeed I took it from your post.

Cutter · Aug 22, 2002

Originally posted by Graham:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cutter:
I believe the police made several mistakes here. But these kids were in the wrong too. THEY WERE BREAKING THE LAW. IF YOU BREAK THE LAW THEN YOU PAY THE CONSEQUENCES.

Wow, still lots of people making comments here. But information about this whole thing is still sketchy, and many are making large generalisations and assumptions about this whole thing.

One comment about the editorial article referenced - this was one person, who was not actually there at the time. All she had to say was that "yes, kids had gathered there and done annoying stuff previously." Not comments about the arrests themselves, and how they were carried out (which is what I believe most are concerned about)

Generalisations like the one above are still being made, with no evidence to support them.
"They were breaking the law" Were they? Was every person arrested breaking the law? This is the question which I think most of us are interested in. There appear to be indications that they weren't (as in the case of the 10 year old out with her father), and in comments by officers participating, who had trouble going along with their orders to "arrest everybody"

It seems pretty obvious that this is not a clear case, and mistakes were made. Some people probably shouldn't have been arrested, but some people probably should have been.
Does that make it ok? I'd say not.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the problem here seems to be indiscriminate arrests which brought in a number of people who had nothing to do with the offending party.

Graham<hr /></blockquote>What do you want them to do Graham....set up tents in the parking lot and hold interviews for two weeks to determine who need to be taken in. These are police trying to do a very difficult and dangerous job. (One that I wouldn't want to do). And, they are going to make mistakes during the course of that job. Are you perfect? I'm not. And as far as mentioning that the story above was just an editiorial. Maybe so, but doesn't mean it's not true.

At least it was from a person who lives there and has to face the problem on a weekly basis. Can the parents say that...or even the police....or any of you???? I don't think so.

Wingerr · Aug 22, 2002

too many rowdy people here- I'd better go quietly before I get taken in the sweep-

Everyone has valid points- I don't agree with all of them, and I hope I still have that right...left..

Cutter · Aug 22, 2002

Originally posted by lightlover:
I seem to have a bunch of rowdy people hanging around the Café, making trouble and shouting (in capital letters) about politics.

No personal attacks please. That's the law on CPF.

[EDIT: Feel free to self-moderate, and edit your previous posts if necessary.]
Jahn

I agree with wingerr on this one

Seems we were getting a little rowdy. I love a good lively debate but it appears we might draw some wrath down upon us. I'll tone it down or maybe just end my debate here. I've about said all that I can. Should we agree to disagree.

P.S. Ummmmm......you're not going to have us all arrested in a big police sweep are you lightlover???

Cutter · Aug 22, 2002

Originally posted by treek13:
It originally came from Darell, but you used his example and expounded on it. I quoted it from you(literally using the quote button next to your post). Note I am merely stating my case, not trying to insult you.

By the way treek13....no insult taken

I'm not quite that thin skinned

All I was doing though was answering a question that Darell had posed. It also was an exteme example but I answered it anyway. However, I just didn't want to get into the rut of answering exreme examples like that.....it would never end.

Peace out

Graham · Aug 22, 2002

Originally posted by Cutter:
What do you want them to do Graham....set up tents in the parking lot and hold interviews for two weeks to determine who need to be taken in. These are police trying to do a very difficult and dangerous job. (One that I wouldn't want to do). And, they are going to make mistakes during the course of that job. Are you perfect? I'm not.

Dan, you were the one who mentioned extreme examples. Yet you continue to use them yourself (Talian and living in Afghanistan?),in addition to shouting, which isn't really conducive to discussion.

I think all people expect is for police to do their job to the best of their ability. Sure, mistakes happen, but we hope that they are minimal, and cause minimal problems for people who are not at fault.

Graham

**DONOTDELETE** · Aug 22, 2002

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Cutter:
I believe the police made several mistakes here. But these kids were in the wrong too. THEY WERE BREAKING THE LAW. IF YOU BREAK THE LAW THEN YOU PAY THE CONSEQUENCES.
--------------------------------------------------------
??? excuse me are we living on the same planet? I see people breaking laws constantly, and getting away with it. Certainly we don't think the ones that are caught and punished are all of 'em? They're just the tippiest top of a humungous iceberg -- it's just a little show to help perpetrate the illusion of law and control to lull and pacify and satiate the masses...
In my life I see people being robbed, harrassed, intimidated, lied to, deprived of all sorts of services they supposedly have a right to, and, most of the time, no gets caught or punished for doing that to them...

**DONOTDELETE** · Aug 22, 2002

Originally posted by Cutter:
What do you want them to do Graham....set up tents in the parking lot and hold interviews for two weeks to determine who need to be taken in.
-----------------
yes. that's what I expect. or else go home.
In fact that was my job, when 15,000 Cuban refugees entered the US it was my, and others, job to sit down for a few minutes with each one and interview them, to find out why they were here and if they were released from jail in Cuba, why they were jailed...seems we could do the same for a few hundred teenage US citizens, I mean if we are still playing "democracy" ? -- nahhhh, screw that, too time consuming........just toss em in the tombs for a night, maybe if we're lucky they'll contract TB...

Cutter · Aug 22, 2002

Originally posted by Graham:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cutter:
What do you want them to do Graham....set up tents in the parking lot and hold interviews for two weeks to determine who need to be taken in. These are police trying to do a very difficult and dangerous job. (One that I wouldn't want to do). And, they are going to make mistakes during the course of that job. Are you perfect? I'm not.

Dan, you were the one who mentioned extreme examples. Yet you continue to use them yourself (Talian and living in Afghanistan?),in addition to shouting, which isn't really conducive to discussion.

I think all people expect is for police to do their job to the best of their ability. Sure, mistakes happen, but we hope that they are minimal, and cause minimal problems for people who are not at fault.

Graham<hr /></blockquote>I think that was a valid point Graham...not an exteme example. They had a large group of people gathered there that weren't supposed to be there and may have been gathering there illegal and causing disturbances for some time. Sure, you might have a couple of innocent people mingled in there, but there is really no feasible way for a limited amount of cops to determine that in a group of 300 people on the spot. And I only pull out extreme examples when others do to make a point

And as far as yelling...didn't mean to...was just trying to make a point. I've made a lot of posts on this discussion and when someone comes in sporadically and makes me repeat myself....it's aggravating. Surely you can understand that.

Greta · Aug 22, 2002

Okie dokie then! That was a fun discussion, wasn't it?

Cutter... ah the cameras at the intersections in Phoenix. That's how I got a nice picture of my daughter in the mail last fall. She goes to ASU. Of course, I got the picture of her in the mail because the car she was driving is registered to me. Have I gotten any more pictures of her? Nope! 'Cuz she knows that if I do, she'll be walkin'! OH MY!!... Does that mean I'm being a responsible parent and teaching my child to obey the law?!?! ... there's a novel idea!

Here's just a little info regarding these car clubs. Did you know that they are considered to be gangs? No really! They are! By definition, they are gangs. So that means that any crime that is commited by anyone in one of those car clubs (loitering, littering, noise violation, curfew violation, underage drinking, shoplifting etc etc) is considered to be gang related and/or a gang crime... and guess what? That makes it a felony...

Isn't that interesting? Did I tell you that before my husband became a drug detective, he was a gang officer? Ya... he's pretty much covered the whole spectrum of a scenario like this one. He's an interesting guy to listen to...

Cutter · Aug 22, 2002

Originally posted by Ted the Led:
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Cutter:
I believe the police made several mistakes here. But these kids were in the wrong too. THEY WERE BREAKING THE LAW. IF YOU BREAK THE LAW THEN YOU PAY THE CONSEQUENCES.
--------------------------------------------------------
??? excuse me are we living on the same planet? I see people breaking laws constantly, and getting away with it. Certainly we don't think the ones that are caught and punished are all of 'em? They're just the tippiest top of a humungous iceberg -- it's just a little show to help perpetrate the illusion of law and control to lull and pacify and satiate the masses...
In my life I see people being robbed, harrassed, intimidated, lied to, deprived of all sorts of services they supposedly have a right to, and, most of the time, no gets caught or punished for doing that to them...

It doesn't make it right my brother. Its still doesn't make it right. And is no way a valid excuse for these kids. They don't need anyone making excuses for their mistakes....their parents are handling that job just fine.

Cutter · Aug 22, 2002

Sasha,

Thank God your here. I've been fighting the good fight without you for too long.

Cutter · Aug 22, 2002

Originally posted by Ted the Led:
Originally posted by Cutter:
What do you want them to do Graham....set up tents in the parking lot and hold interviews for two weeks to determine who need to be taken in.
-----------------
yes. that's what I expect. or else go home.
In fact that was my job, when 15,000 Cuban refugees entered the US it was my, and others, job to sit down for a few minutes with each one and interview them, to find out why they were here and if they were released from jail in Cuba, why they were jailed...seems we could do the same for a few hundred teenage US citizens, I mean if we are still playing "democracy" ? -- nahhhh, screw that, too time consuming........just toss em in the tombs for a night, maybe if we're lucky they'll contract TB...

I tell you what Ted....then why don't you drive to Houston and do those interviews for them. I'd rather have the cops back out on the street protecting the truly innocent.

By the way...that sounds too much like a bad quote from a movie.

I eat breakfast 300 yards from 15,000 cubans trained to kill me. You want the truth?.....You can't handle the truth.

Greta · Aug 22, 2002

I didn't forget you Cutter...

I got sidetracked with trying to get the Last 50 Posts installed and set up. Besides, there really isn't anything I could add to what you've written... I'd just be typing "ditto" over and over and over... and I'd start sounding like some kinda Rush Limbaugh follower or somethin' like that...

Cutter · Aug 22, 2002

Originally posted by Sasha:
I didn't forget you Cutter...

I got sidetracked with trying to get the Last 50 Posts installed and set up. Besides, there really isn't anything I could add to what you've written... I'd just be typing "ditto" over and over and over... and I'd start sounding like some kinda Rush Limbaugh follower or somethin' like that...

Off the subject, but I REALLY liked the Last 50 Posts thing you set up. VERRYYY COOOLL. Thanks for taking the time to do that.

Saaby · Aug 22, 2002

OK ok time for me to take a second and chime in again, seriously this time though...

ON the stop light cams: Don't get me started. Summary: Camera goes in, accidents go up. Yellow light "on" time goes up instead, accidents and red light runners go down...but then the state doesn't make any money.

On the car clubs: This isn't the same but is very related. Drag racing is illegal. Local race track (Which I happen to work at) hosts legal, controlled drag races 1-2 a month, very nice

Cutter · Aug 22, 2002

Originally posted by Sasha:
Okie dokie then! That was a fun discussion, wasn't it?

Cutter... ah the cameras at the intersections in Phoenix. That's how I got a nice picture of my daughter in the mail last fall. She goes to ASU. Of course, I got the picture of her in the mail because the car she was driving is registered to me. Have I gotten any more pictures of her? Nope! 'Cuz she knows that if I do, she'll be walkin'! OH MY!!... Does that mean I'm being a responsible parent and teaching my child to obey the law?!?! ... there's a novel idea!

Here's just a little info regarding these car clubs. Did you know that they are considered to be gangs? No really! They are! By definition, they are gangs. So that means that any crime that is commited by anyone in one of those car clubs (loitering, littering, noise violation, curfew violation, underage drinking, shoplifting etc etc) is considered to be gang related and/or a gang crime... and guess what? That makes it a felony...

Isn't that interesting? Did I tell you that before my husband became a drug detective, he was a gang officer? Ya... he's pretty much covered the whole spectrum of a scenario like this one. He's an interesting guy to listen to...

I've said it before Sasha...you rock. All these other parents would be complaining and griping to the city about that ticket instead of placing the blame where it belongs. On the person who ran the red light. And then they'd probably pay the ticket for the kid. Unbelievable but I've seen it happen. If I ever got a ticket as a kid, I got two things.....a lecture.....and I got to pay the ticket. And the cops only got one thing.....my hard earned money (not a lawsuit). It's good to see there's at least one responsible parent out there.

And verrryyy interesting about the car clubs there. You (through your husband...of course

)are the one in here that's most qualified to answer some of these issues. And I'm in total agreement with you.

Dan out

Cutter · Aug 22, 2002

Originally posted by Saaby:
OK ok time for me to take a second and chime in again, seriously this time though...

ON the stop light cams: Don't get me started. Summary: Camera goes in, accidents go up. Yellow light "on" time goes up instead, accidents and red light runners go down...but then the state doesn't make any money.

On the car clubs: This isn't the same but is very related. Drag racing is illegal. Local race track (Which I happen to work at) hosts legal, controlled drag races 1-2 a month, very nice

Interesting Saaby....but the reports I've read show that the accident rate goes down with the cameras installed. And I'm all for a longer yellow light to help people stop running the red lights.

And, a very good point about the drag racing thing.

Saaby · Aug 22, 2002

OK as long as cutter is going off topic I'll go off a little more.

Serious accidents (in the intersection) go down but rear end type accidents go WAYYYY up from prople slamming on their brakes when they see the yellow to avoid a ticket when they should (and could) just go through...get it?

Cutter · Aug 22, 2002

Ohhh....now I get it Saaby. But once again....who's fault is that. The city's fault for putting in the camera??....or once again...the individual who was breaking the law by following too closely to the car in front of them.

Not to mention the fact, that statistically, people are much more likely to survive that particular type of collision than if you ran a red light and T-Boned a car coming out into the intersection. Get my point??

***edit*** better start posting more Saaby. I've already had over 80 posts in like a 36 hour period. I'm coming after you buddy.

thank you for shopping at kmart. your going to jail

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