The New King of Throw: Reflector Types Only; Tested and Confirmed!

[wbp]

Re: The New King of Throw Tested and Confirmed!

yes 156000 not 156

With what instrument? Most light meters are calibrated for Illuminant A and are rather inaccurate when measuring LED sources.

 

[waddup]

Re: The New King of Throw Tested and Confirmed!

There is no question,

We took the 3 contenders outside and looked at some trees about 80 yards away

absolute science

 

[MrGman]

Re: The New King of Throw Tested and Confirmed!

This is why we use the wonderous Orb Optronics sp100. It don't do no stinking lux readings. It gives you the entire spectrum readout, intensity at 1000 points across the wavelengths. Here we see the actual outputs of the Raidfire Spear, Tiablo A10 R2, Dereelight DBS with R2 and then the MC-E, measured in their respective "spots". Not going to get this with a $49.95 meter and, the accuracy of measuring the intensity across the spectrum is excellent. 😀

This is the real "Science", the rest is just gravy. Thanks again to wbp.

The Tiable A10 ACE will be getting measured along with the SureFire E2DL, all in due time!

 

[saabluster]

Re: The New King of Throw Tested and Confirmed!

With what instrument? Most light meters are calibrated for Illuminant A and are rather inaccurate when measuring LED sources.

Well you just lost me. I have no idea what you were referring to when you said "Illuminant A". I have a cheap DX light meter and I have no illusions as to its accuracy. I have noticed that it seems to read higher with an LED that is more blue in tint. But I figure it's relatively accurate when comparing two lights that are both LED based and have similar bin tints when all you want is a relative measurement between two lights. This is essentially what I did with my Tiablo A9 and the DEFT. That measurement was even taken with one of my reject lenses as that was all I had at the time of the test.

 

[TITAN1833]

Re: The New King of Throw Tested and Confirmed!

With what instrument? Most light meters are calibrated for Illuminant A and are rather inaccurate when measuring LED sources.

I thought they were calibrated for lux have I missed something :thinking:

 

[LuxLuthor]

Re: The New King of Throw Tested and Confirmed!

I have no business stepping into an LED thread (LOL!), and although it looks like MrGman and wbp did some excellent work, I do think your thread should be qualified up front as stating your label requires a Production/Retail LED model which appeared to be added after Saabluster's DEFT arrived in the thread.

However if your guideline is being able to go out and purchase a light, well then anyone who wants can buy an aspheric lens from a number of locations, stick it on a generic Maglite, and decimate your ranked models in first post.

Then the DEFT which currently has a waiting line--will blow those away. Maybe change your topic/claim to "King of Throw LED Production Retail Lights." Obviously there are also many incan lights that will dramatically out-throw your LED results.

Now the only substantive questions I would raise relate to the methodology in making sure that it is conforming with guidelines from a resource such as section 8.2 in this International Light IL-1400a NIST Radiometer/Photometer.

Then also that the distances & angles comply with The Ryer Manual p.17 regarding reflectors & use of the inverse square law, and Chapter 7 beginning on p. 29.

No question that your results are valid from a relative comparison of one light tested to the next, but I'm not sure if you complied with all the requirements to make an absolute inverse square extrapolation, however expensive the spectral radiometer used. You may have, there is just insufficient documentation of the testing methodology to ascertain.

 

[Glenn7]

Re: The New King of Throw Tested and Confirmed!

Good answer LUX :thumbsup:
and I have to agree - just because you cant get a specific light of your choice today - doesn't make it qualify for a non production light.
Jetbeam is a production light manufacturer and you cant buy a M1X as they are sold out (but making more) - Orb - you cant just always go on line and buy the model you want without waiting.
Just because a manufacturer maybe (for costs and lack of employees) cant keep up with demand - doesn't make it a non production light IMO - it just makes it a high demand very much sort after production light.

Question: how many lights does someone have to make and sell before they are considered a manufacturer?
Or is the definition of a manufacturer what someone does for a living?
Or is it sour grapes because you only have light A and don't/cant have light B - that you make up the "manufacturer/production" rules.

 

[TITAN1833]

Re: The New King of Throw Tested and Confirmed!

We took the 3 contenders outside and looked at some trees about 80 yards away back and forth and there was no question, the Tiablo A10 was the clear winner.

I'm sorry that is too funny to let go,
I too took three contenders outside a DBS,sunlite 8W and a spartanian II I looked at some trees about 300 meters I looked back and forth and there was no question the sunlite 8W was the clear winner,now that is scientific testing at it's best in my book



[edit] on a serious note maybe we should just rely on our own eyes when testing throw lights,as we don't all have expensive equipment..just a thought.

 

[Ryanrpm]

Re: The New King of Throw Tested and Confirmed!

I'm sorry that is too funny to let go,
I too took three contenders outside a DBS,sunlite 8W and a spartanian II I looked at some trees about 300 meters I looked back and forth and there was no question the spartanian II was the clear winner,now that is scientific testing at it's best in my book

I take it you are just kinda of on the sarcastic side there?

Speaking of Sunlite, and based on the nice photos of Glenn7 comparing it against the DEFT, DBS, Snipe, ect.....I'd like to see how the 8w measures on that spectral radiance chart. 😎 http://picasaweb.google.com.au/glennkath/Eagle8W?authkey=-UtBFuAevDo#

Especially since Sunlite makes their own LED and are not your standard Cree, Seoul, etc...

 

[TITAN1833]

Re: The New King of Throw Tested and Confirmed!

I take it you are just kinda of on the sarcastic side there?

yes just a little but I made an apology for that already :green: but crazy hmmm I make no apologises for being that 😉

Look testing with instruments is one way testing out in the field is another,but you need to back up the looking with beam shots IMO, placing a object at increasing distance until one light can't reach the object will determine what light throws light the furthest how else can you say one throws further than the other,this thread is about a confirmed test but all I see is numbers and words we need long distance beam shots as well :twothumbs

 

[StandardBattery]

Re: The New King of Throw Tested and Confirmed!

Isn't this a case of people simple wanting more that what the test shows, or what the testers claimed? They just said one light has more lux at 5m than this other one. Use that information as you see fit.

For them that was enough for them to crown it, but kings are toppled every day. Quite frankly the world has moved on from monarchies as they proved unable to satisfy all the people. If you're still living in the dark ages, no flashlight is going to provide enlightenment.

Now we can all enjoy the future tests for what they are.

 

[Alan B]

Re: The New King of Throw Tested and Confirmed!

I am glad to see tests run with such care and precision. This yields a lot of information that we can use. I think testing things that are less available is still useful. Availability is a relative thing, if you want something enough you can almost always get it, with patience. They come up used, or you can commission or build one, etc.

As far as classifying throwers, it might be useful to classify them by head diameter. That's the real feature that both gives them an edge and makes them hard to carry.

 

[MrGman]

Re: The New King of Throw Tested and Confirmed!

I have no business stepping into an LED thread (LOL!), and although it looks like MrGman and wbp did some excellent work, I do think your thread should be qualified up front as stating your label requires a Production/Retail LED model which appeared to be added after Saabluster's DEFT arrived in the thread.

Your right, this is an LED thread, no relabeling will be done. I didn't post this in the General Flashlight Discussion, the Incan, or HID, sections for a reason. The Saabluster is a custom modified light of 1 copy so far. I have never seen it, I have never seen any independent testing of it. When its available it can be considered.

However if your guideline is being able to go out and purchase a light, well then anyone who wants can buy an aspheric lens from a number of locations, stick it on a generic Maglite, and decimate your ranked models in first post .

Go post it in the incan section. I don't care. In the LED section the major hot topic in regards to the best thrower flashlight has been the Tiablo A10 taking over the top spot from Deree DBS when Light-Reviews.com published that it had over 45K lux. Many of those in this thread on LED lights wanted to know if it was really true for this single LED flashlight to have such a high lux reading and actually beat out those other lights. It appears to have done that. I am sure you can put together an incan or an HID light that would still be brighter. Like I said, go post it in the incan or HID sections, this is about LEDs and nobody ever claimed otherwise.

Then the DEFT which currently has a waiting line--will blow those away. Maybe change your topic/claim to "King of Throw LED Production Retail Lights." Obviously there are also many incan lights that will dramatically out-throw your LED results.

Still no, still don't care about incans. We aren't in the incan thread section.

Now the only substantive questions I would raise relate to the methodology in making sure that it is conforming with guidelines from a resource such as section 8.2 in this International Light IL-1400a NIST Radiometer/Photometer.

Then also that the distances & angles comply with The Ryer Manual p.17 regarding reflectors & use of the inverse square law, and Chapter 7 beginning on p. 29.

No question that your results are valid from a relative comparison of one light tested to the next, but I'm not sure if you complied with all the requirements to make an absolute inverse square extrapolation, however expensive the spectral radiometer used. You may have, there is just insufficient documentation of the testing methodology to ascertain.

As you said, the results are valid, ( I highlighted his text, just for the record) never said that the inverse square extrapolation back to the standard 1 meter was accurate, just a reference, that clarification was posted early on. Don't really care if it is or not.

We compared the three LED lights that are still in the published top 3 spots for LED type lights on Light-Reviews.com using accurate equipment at a distance that is far more realistic than one meter. That is because some people argue that measurements of such lights with deep reflectors cannot be accurately measured at 1 meter (regardless of meter sensitivity range). They were already tested by some one else at 1 meter, there is no reason to duplicate that data yet again. Spot measurements are spot measurements. They do not have to be taken at 1 meter, we aren't submitting this for a Nobel science prize, just doing a direct comparison, get over it. They just have to be taken the same way. In this set of measurements the data indicates that the Tiablo is clearly brighter than the other 2 in question. Confirming the data published at Light-Reviews.com The Sunlight Eable 8w and saabluster havent been tested yet. I would love to see the Eagle 8W, if it turns out to be higher lux, that would be great. If RyanRPM wants to send us his, I am sure wbp and I would love to see it in action. I haven't seen it on light-reviews.com yet either, but at least people can order it up and buy it. If it turns out to be the next King of LED Throwers that would be great.

In regards to the outdoor beam shots, we looked at the 3 lights that we were testing as a double check to our readings. Already stated didn't have the time to do some decent beamshots. Of those 3 lights that were being compared, the Tiablo A10 was to the both of use clearly brighter with a better defined beam. It wasn't a close call as to be subjective, side by side at the same distance, the Tiablo was clearly better without question. I would love to do beam shots of some targets and not just tree branches up in the air. Something more meaningful, but don't have the time to do it just now. Said that back on page 1. Nobody is paying us anything to do this, we have real jobs and real lives to get on with.

Personally I would be embarassed to even mention a maglight incandescent flashlight as a serious light.

 

[Alan B]

Re: The New King of Throw Tested and Confirmed!

Anyone can buy an aspheric lens and put it and an LED drop-in on a M@glite and make a terrific thrower as well, at a cost far below the other top-end lights reviewed here. It would be great to see that tested as well, so that we could see how it compares.

The quest is for knowledge.

Thanks for all your effort in this, and the really interesting results. Guess it is time to sell the old Tiablo A9.

 

[jirik_cz]

Re: The New King of Throw Tested and Confirmed!

DEFT independent testing is here http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=211519

Just FYI LED-lenser X7 has also around 50000 lux with fresh alkaline cells (current draw around 3,3A). Yesterday I've tried it with four AA eneloops in D holders (1AA in one holder) and it scored over 90000 lux (current draw was 7A) and I'm pretty sure that with rechargeable D nimh it would have more than 100000 lux (before it will make ). This is a retail light, so is it a new King of throw now ? 😛

 

[Jay T]

Re: The New King of Throw Tested and Confirmed!

LuxLuthor Posted.

However if your guideline is being able to go out and purchase a light, well then anyone who wants can buy an aspheric lens from a number of locations, stick it on a generic Maglite, and decimate your ranked models in first post.

Mrgman responded with

[
Go post it in the incan section. I don't care. In the LED section the major hot topic in regards to the best thrower flashlight has been the Tiablo A10 taking over the top spot from Deree DBS when Light-Reviews.com published that it had over 45K lux. Many of those in this thread on LED lights wanted to know if it was really true for this single LED flashlight to have such a high lux reading and actually beat out those other lights. It appears to have done that. I am sure you can put together an incan or an HID light that would still be brighter. Like I said, go post it in the incan or HID sections, this is about LEDs and nobody ever claimed otherwise.

.......

Personally I would be embarassed to even mention a maglight incandescent flashlight as a serious light.

Umm Mr G, Lux was talking about an aspheric lens on a mag lite. An aspheric lens does not work well on an incandescent light. Lux was talking about LEDs. Please click on the link in his post, notice the aspheric lens lights in his post are LEDs? His post does not belong in the Incandecent section, nor does it belong in the HID section.

Rather than foaming at the mouth telling him to GTFO of the LED section. You should concider his point that an aspheric lens on a $25 Mag could possibly beat any of the kings of throw.

 

[saabluster]

Re: The New King of Throw Tested and Confirmed!

The Saabluster is a custom modified light of 1 copy so far. I have never seen it, I have never seen any independent testing of it. When its available it can be considered.

MrG it is very clear you haven't taken the time to look at my thread/s on the DEFT. You will find a link in my sig. Just to clear this up, I am saabluster and the light is the DEFT.😉 There has already been 17 built and shipped with many more to come. So I'm not sure where you are getting that there is only "1 copy so far". Lux gave you a link to some testing that he did that I think most anyone would consider independent. Glenn7 has linked to his thread showing the DEFT next to a DBS and Eagle 8w if I remember correctly.

Personally I would be embarassed to even mention a maglight incandescent flashlight as a serious light.

I'm sure Lux will be along shortly to confirm but I think he was referring to a mag LED not an incan as he knows quite well that an incan does not really work with an aspheric. And don't take what he says too seriously he was you a little. I think everyone here really appreciates what you guys have done here with the test. It rare that any of us CPFers have access to equipment like the "big boys" do. Thanks.

 

[TITAN1833]

Re: The New King of Throw Tested and Confirmed!

DEFT independent testing is here http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=211519

Just FYI LED-lenser X7 has also around 50000 lux with fresh alkaline cells. Yesterday I've tried it with four AA eneloops in D holders (1AA in one holder) and it scored over 90000 lux (current draw was 7A) and I'm pretty sure that with rechargeable D nimh it would have more than 100000 lux (before it will make ). This is a retail light, so is it a new King of throw now ? 😛

Wow impressive can you measure lux@5m i'm guessing here but it may come second to the DEFT,but yes as it's a light that you can purchase over the internet like the DEFT can then it has to be considered IMHO

 

[jirik_cz]

Re: The New King of Throw Tested and Confirmed!

Wow impressive can you measure lux@5m i'm guessing here but it may come second to the DEFT,but yes as it's a light that you can purchase over the internet like the DEFT can then it has to be considered IMHO

Sorry I've forgot to mention that those values were already measured at 4 meters (5790 lux) and converted to 1 meter value (92640 lux). 😗

Other thing is that manufacturer doesn't allow use of other than alkaline D batteries... So the "record" is probably not valid 😀

But believe me, it is pretty impressive to get around 1600 lumens and 90000 lux with just four AA eneloops :naughty:

 

[PhantomPhoton]

Re: The New King of Throw Tested and Confirmed!

First, I'd like to distribute a couple chill pills...



Okay good now maybe we can go back to rational discussion.
The DEFT is not a one of a kind light, I have one as well. I hope that many more people will be able to get them in the future and that Saabluster eventually sees some reward for all the time and money he's invested into making this great light available to people.

Second I've played with some of the new LED lensers and they do indeed throw very well. I'd like to try and put one up against the DEFT soon as I think they will do pretty well against it. The larger LED lensers do blow away my DBS.

Third I agree with a lot of what LuxLuthor said and thank him for his comments and for lending us LED nuts his vast experience with other light sources. Really, there is no standardized way to test LED superthrowers. Therefore being as open as possible with data and trying different measurement processes, distances, etc may in the end give a better overall picture of the real world performance one may expect.
It reminds me of fanboys each claiming their computer setup is better because a certain benchmark tests always seems to favor one company over the other. In the end the good revewers post results from a multitude of synthetic and real game-fps/ encoding-time tests and just make comments not really declaring one better than the other in absolute terms.