The Official Zebralight Thread .

Lips

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@jon_slider

How far away (proper distance) from the Opple 3 are people testing at these low levels. On the lowest L4 I have to touch the Opple to get a reading. On L2 & L3 I can move back about a foot or so.

You can see a very slight flicker on L2 -L4 holding light against the wall with your eyes (big reading glasses for me!)

Most I can tell it's a non-issue for me. I have to do the ultimate test and see it with night adapted eyes in a dark room...


Sounds like the SC65 719A stock configuration does not offer L4, which is a lower low than stock the configuration low.

It is bothersome to some, not an issue with others. That image with the dash line of light is telling. Consider that obvious flicker could very well be distracting in a rain or snow event.
The lows like L4 & L3 are so low that they wouldn't come into play in a rain or snow event? Maybe bathroom run with very night adapted eyes in very dark room... I tried to test last night but fell asleep!



Attached: L4,L3,L2L1
L4 Touching Opple 3 and varying short distances on rest.
 

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ohio72

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@jon_slider

How far away (proper distance) from the Opple 3 are people testing at these low levels. On the lowest L4 I have to touch the Opple to get a reading. On L2 & L3 I can move back about a foot or so.

You can see a very slight flicker on L2 -L4 holding light against the wall with your eyes (big reading glasses for me!)

Most I can tell it's a non-issue for me. I have to do the ultimate test and see it with night adapted eyes in a dark room...



The lows like L4 & L3 are so low that they wouldn't come into play in a rain or snow event? Maybe bathroom run with very night adapted eyes in very dark room... I tried to test last night but fell asleep!



Attached: L4,L3,L2L1
L4 Touching Opple 3 and varying short distances on rest.
I use L4 for midnight bathroom runs all the time🤣
 

jon_slider

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How far away (proper distance) from the Opple 3 are people testing at these low levels.
as close as possible to get a reading, but not so close that the sensor is oversaturated. I can tell when the LED is not too close by noticing if the Lux on the Photometry screen is below the 50,000 maximum that Opple can report. This is the Photometry screen Im referring to:
IMG_5012.PNG

IMG_5016.jpg

IMG_5013.PNG

IMG_5020.jpg



This is what happens to the Opple if a light is too bright and too close to the sensor: (the light is at 24 lumens but only 1" away from the Opple):
IMG_5015.PNG

IMG_5019.jpg


When I use the Opple to measure outputs that can oversaturate the sensor, by maxing out at 50,000 lux, I move the light further away from the Opple, and I try to get the lux up between 10,000 and 20,000 lux (it will go from 20,000 to 50,000 with a very small change in distance if the light is at higher outputs)

thanks very much for sharing the SC65 risk assessment results from your Opple, we can see that the first 3 lowest levels all have been rated as High Risk, and the frequency on all 3 of them is below 1000Hz. otoh, L1 has a frequency over 3000Hz and shows as No Risk.

fwiw, it looks like your img#269 has a higher frequency of 633Hz than img#271 with a frequency of 187Hz. If I had to guess, I would say img#271@ 187Hz is for L4, and img#269@ 633Hz is for L3, but they are both considered High Risk. ime, frequencies of about 600Hz or less can show dots when waving the light.. and fwiw, Ive read that above 3000Hz there is no "biological effects".

Generally speaking, the slower frequencies can become harmful (cause migraine), IF the light is used for "extended periods", such as when using a light for more than an hour at a time, as the only source of light in an otherwise full dark scenario. Even if the flicker is not visually noticed by the operator. However, I dont want to get into any arguments about whether or not flicker matters, biologically. Most people are happy enough if they simply cannot consciously "see" the flicker.

As far as the SC65, my understanding is that L1 flicker is neither visible, nor biologically harmful. The lower levels may or may not be visible to some people. Though most seem to be able to see the flicker of L4.

With the exception of light belonging to Ohio72 that does not seem to show visible flicker on L4, on camera, nor to his eyes. I dont know if this is due to component variations. I wish he also had an Opple to be able to actually measure the frequency that the light is operating at. imo his light is a fortunate exception to the trend of reports from people who say their L4 produces visible flicker.
 
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Bob_McBob

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To test flicker on the lowest modes, you should hold the light directly on the flicker sensor like this. I can't find my Opple 3 to see if it works, but I've noticed some odd behaviour with the Opple 4 like being much less sensitive in a pitch black room than with normal ambient lighting. I assume that's related to some processing the app does based on the lux measurement.
 

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aznsx

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Wow! I have no idea how some of you guys possibly dealt with (or could have) typical standard performance of NTSC TV in my early years (even with reasonable persistence screen phosphors of the day), without going completely crazy!

Oh wait....that may be how I got this way myself!!:)

Never mind.
 

jon_slider

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I've noticed some odd behaviour with the Opple 4 like being much less sensitive in a pitch black room than with normal ambient lighting. pxl_20230725_182932708-mp-1-jpg.jpg
I do agree that some levels are too low to read in a dark room, and your technique of exposing the sensor to also acquire ambient light, can be effective.

That could be because the ambient lighting is adding enough lux to get a reading. If the ambient source is daylight, it may not be skewing the flicker results as much as happens if the ambient light is house AC lighting.

When testing Flicker at low outputs, ambient house AC light has a strong influence on my Flicker results. Even if I set a light directly on top of the sensor, so it is totally covered, I still find I need to turn off electric lights in the room, when testing for Flicker.

If I test with a house light on, the Opple 3 picks up its frequency, and it affects the Flicker Risk Assessment and Raw Data.. The house lighting will show up in the Flicker test, giving a frequency of 120Hz, and changing the shape of the plot of the Raw Data into a sort of S shaped wave.

I do think testing in the dark is most accurate, but some low outputs dont produce enough lux for the Opple to get a reading. I usually dont handhold the light, nor the Opple, to avoid affecting the reading due to movement.
 
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radellaf

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Got my shipping notice. Yay. I'll try using them on L3, in a dark room, as the only light source, and see if I get a headache bigger than the rest of life can be blamed for ;)
If you use two at the same time the pwm would be out of phase so you'd sorta double the frequency, though the maximum off-time would be anywhere from same to half of one flashlight. Maybe that can justify why I bought two, though it's really "whee! Nichia! R9! No Cree Rainbow! Take my money!"
 

SYZYGY

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View attachment 47563

ordered:
7/14/2023

shipped:
8/14/2023

i received the lights and got to play with them.

first of all, the NCR18650GAs ZL is selling are different now.

PXL_20230818_223601915.jpg

PXL_20230818_223615654.jpg


the wrap is different (green!), the flat top is even flatter, and the cathode diameter is a bit narrower. i expect compatibility to be worse overall with these except for devices specifically designed for flat tops. a non-issue if you're only using them in ZLs anyways.

on to the lights. i had played with a sc600 4+ HI briefly before since i got one for a friend, so this is the second one. it's a good light if you don't care about super high output (but want something more than sc64/sc65) and demand acceptable tint and tint shift.

i think i forgot to note my preferred settings last time, so i'll write them down this time in case i ever have to program another one of these:

(12 = max output)

SC600w Mk IV Plus HI
G6:
  • L: 2, 4
  • M: 6, 7
  • H: 9, 11
G7 (used for moonlight and max output):
  • L: 1, 1
  • M: unused
  • H: 12, 12
SC65c HI
G6:
  • L: 3, 4
  • M: 6, 7
  • H: 9, 11
G7 (used for moonlight and max output):
  • L: 1, 1
  • M: unused
  • H: 12, 12
i have short click for L, double click for M, and long press for H.

PXL_20230818_224156695.jpg

PXL_20230818_224221978.jpg

PXL_20230818_234855206.jpg


here's my modest 'collection' of sc64 lights along with this new sc65 that's going to a family member.

the sc64w HI is a high cri emitter swap done by mcbob. iirc it has slightly less output than stock but higher CRI (especially R9).

the sc64c LE is a 519a 3500K dedome emitter swap done by me. it's my edc light.

sc65 is just a hair shorter than sc64, but it's hard to notice even side by side.

i went through my usual process of programming that i do every time i get a new model. i try to roughly match the levels for the lows and mediums to my other ZLs, and then i do 9 and 11 for the highs. i match by visual comparison in a dark room. my philosophy... for the lows: for L1, i want the lowest output that is actually useful in everyday use (not super dark adjusted eyes). for L2, i want a bit more output than that. something perfectly usable in a dim environment, but possibly too bright in a very dark environment. mediums: useful output that doesn't drain the battery so fast. somewhere between 9 and what i have my lows set to. highs: i just go for the second highest thermally regulated output (11) and then a respectable level that gives me consistent output (9). and then i'll occasionally use G7 when i want to use moonlight (1) or max output (12).

beam shot (the sc65 is at output level 7):

PXL_20230818_234455816.jpg


left: sc64c le (Nichia 519A R9080 sm353 3500K M400 L5 dedomed, me)
center: sc65c hi (Nichia 719A 4000K 90+ CRI, ZL stock)
right: sc64w hi (high cri 4000K 90+ XHP35 HI, bob)

the tint and tint shift on sc65 are quite nice. if you like that color temp, i think you'll be happy with it.

ok, so how about the driver? flickering issues??

i will tentatively say that it is acceptable. i put it to level 1/12 (moonlight) and could not notice flickering in normal use. i could not notice flickering when illuminating a subject, and i also could not notice it when directly observing the emitter (even when flicking my eyes back and forth). i could only notice it when quickly waving the light back and forth (an observable pulse in the trail due to a persistence-of-vision effect), and even then i'd say it's not terrible. it's nothing like a low-frequency, PWM-driven LED. on this sample, it is imo firmly in the non-issue realm.

however, i noticed a weird thing on max brightness (12/12). after 10s, it did a sharp step down, and then 10s later it BADLY flickered. i'm talking flickering that anyone would notice. i reproduced it several times in a row, but i could no longer reproduce it after removing the battery. i tried the same battery in other lights, i tried different batteries in the sc65, etc. the battery that originally caused the issue was brand new with ~50% SoC (fresh from ZL).

i suspect that this was some bug caused by a high resistance connection. maybe it was current-starved, idk. the spring on this sc65's tailcap is a little wonky. the sharp edge of the spring's tip protrudes upwards slightly, and i can sometimes feel it really grab the cell and spin it around in there when i screw on the tailcap. i guess it's not a big deal, and maybe i just got a bad connection to the battery that one time. i can't reproduce the max output flickering anymore.

i have done more of what i call the persistence of vision trail test at a few outputs. basically you just observe the emitter while waving the light around as fast as you can. on higher outputs, obviously aim it away from your face so you just are just seeing a bit of light coming off the edge of the reflector. i do this in a dark room.

i can clearly see a pulsed trail on 1/12 and 12/12. as i previously described, it's not bad at all though, and i can't notice any flickering in normal usage. and despite being pulsed, it has a somewhat smooth character, and the pulses are tight even while waving it around pretty fast.

interestingly, i do not see the pulsed PoV trail on medium outputs like 6 and 7. it looks about the same as my sc64-series lights. 🤷‍♂️

in conclusion, i think the driver's fine, and i'm usually pretty picky about flickering light sources.
 
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Mark Montgomery

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My copy flickers worse than any other light I own and it is noticeable in every high mode I try. I can upload a video to YouTube but it looks horrible, makes the light unusable in my opinion. Tried multiple different batteries, I'll try to throughly clean the flashlight tomorrow and check again.
 

jon_slider

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My copy flickers worse than any other light I own and it is noticeable in every high mode I try... Tried multiple different batteries
You are the only person to report flicker on High modes on the SC65c Hi.

Hopefully you are Not using Protected Button Tops. The light needs Unprotected Flat Tops (they are shorter)..

If the batteries you are using are too long, they might not make good contact and could explain the flicker on high modes. If the batteries you are using are Protected, that could also explain the flicker on high modes (the high power modes could be making the protection stutter).

If you Are using Unprotected Flat tops, your light is defective and should be returned for refund. (Once refunded, you could buy again. This could be simpler and faster than asking for an exchange, imo)

I hope you get the High Modes flicker issue sorted. The visible flicker reported by others on the SC65c Hi, is in relation to the lowest mode, L4.
 

Mark Montgomery

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Hi jon_slider!

I posted in response to post #5,354.

"however, i noticed a weird thing on max brightness (12/12). after 10s, it did a sharp step down, and then 10s later it BADLY flickered. i'm talking flickering that anyone would notice."

This seems to be what mine does although it can happen in other high modes for me. I use the flat top Sanyo NCR18650GA in mine, I don't use protected batteries unless the flashlight requires their use. :) I am pretty sure it happens with a Samsung 30Q also.
 
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jon_slider

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Hi Mark ;-)
"however, i noticed a weird thing on max brightness (12/12). after 10s, it did a sharp step down, and then 10s later it BADLY flickered. i'm talking flickering that anyone would notice."
oh! I missed that
hope you both find a suitable solution 🍺

I wonder if resetting the thermal calibration would be helpful?

Reddit post with instructions:
thanks to bob_mcbob:

"Setting the thermal regulation level sets the temperature the controller throttles down to maintain. The higher the setting, the higher the output it can maintain, though it's not a huge difference.
PID Thermal Regulation Temperature Programming for two highest output levels

  • Turn off the light from H1 and then turn back on to H1
  • Press and hold to cycle from Low to High 6 times
  • On the 7th (or more) cycle, release the switch
  • when High, to add 1 degree C (up to 5 max)
  • when Med, to revert back to the factory default
  • when Low, to subtract 1 degree C (up to 5 max)"
 

Mark Montgomery

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Apr 10, 2021
Messages
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Hi Mark ;-)

oh! I missed that
hope you both find a suitable solution 🍺

I wonder if resetting the thermal calibration would be helpful?

Reddit post with instructions:
thanks to bob_mcbob:

"Setting the thermal regulation level sets the temperature the controller throttles down to maintain. The higher the setting, the higher the output it can maintain, though it's not a huge difference.
PID Thermal Regulation Temperature Programming for two highest output levels

  • Turn off the light from H1 and then turn back on to H1
  • Press and hold to cycle from Low to High 6 times
  • On the 7th (or more) cycle, release the switch
  • when High, to add 1 degree C (up to 5 max)
  • when Med, to revert back to the factory default
  • when Low, to subtract 1 degree C (up to 5 max)"

I'll give that a shot after I try to reproduce it a few more times.

I too have a hard time reproducing it. Out of maybe 30 uses it has happened 3-4 times, more troubleshooting is needed for sure, so I am testing all the batteries I have used in it again. If I continue having problems I'll contact Zebralight, just more curious now than anything.
 

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