There aught to be a law!

idleprocess

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That is highly dependent on a shop, I know people with tinted windshields, hid kits, that pass inspection in ny. you may get a tech who will measure a tire tread wear and test drive a car, before passing it, or you may get a guy who wont do anything other then scan your sticker, enter pass in every line, and give you a new sticker. chances of that happening go up if a mechanic is a friend of yours and no one is looking. i do not know of a single shop that got in troubles for passing a car with excess tint or led/hid kits,

Or in the DFW area you go to the 'right' shop, ask them to roll down the garage door, slip them a Jackson or few, and miraculously your out-of-spec vehicle passes inspection. Probably not gonna happen so easily with the likes of straight pipes or if you're too dumb to de-'tune' with a stock ECU image for the purpose of a visit, but headlights/window tint no one in law enforcement GAF in the DFW area.
 

jaycee88

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Surprisingly, DOT doesn't make that many laws when it comes to transportation lighting. I think this is due to the highly technicality of the field and the government simply doesn't have the knowledge to address it.

FMVSS 108 regulates transportation lighting. It's pretty detailed. The laboratory test procedures manual is over 700 pages long.
Gotta say, this is the first time in a long time I've heard someone comment that the government doesn't have enough laws. :)


You cannot go for a drive and not notice the LED DRLs.

LOL, literally the whole point of Daytime Running Lights is to be noticed! They are there for conspicuity, the fact that you can't go for a drive and not notice them means that they work.
 
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kaichu dento

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…the whole point of Daytime Running Lights is…
The whole point of DRLs was supposedly to improve traffic safety in a perfect case of tunnel vision.
Once they become a distraction, or worse yet, blinding, then they become worse than what they were supposed to alleviate.
Many of them work perfectly, but in a 'brighter is always better' world, many others are now worsening traffic safety.
Another poor decision made was that of not turning on all marker lights as well, leaving us with cars running around at night with headlights, but no taillights.
Worse yet, the ever greater presence of streetlights has left us with cars going around at night with no lights on at all, either out of mischief, attempts to go incognito or simply not realizing they're off, since it's so well lit even without them.
 

theory816

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FMVSS 108 regulates transportation lighting. It's pretty detailed. The laboratory test procedures manual is over 700 pages long.
Gotta say, this is the first time in a long time I've heard someone comment that the government doesn't have enough laws. :)




LOL, literally the whole point of Daytime Running Lights is to be noticed! They are there for conspicuity, the fact that you can't go for a drive and not notice them means that they work.

You are correct it is pretty lengthy and detailed lol. Just flew over me.

DRLs are meant to be seen, sure, but the LED DRLs are standing out even more in traffic, which is not its purpose. Its creating negative visual noise. And because LEDs are whitish, it stands out even more than the halogen lights in daylight. You're suppose to notice the DRLs and not fixate on it.
 
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jaycee88

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The whole point of DRLs was supposedly to improve traffic safety in a perfect case of tunnel vision.
Once they become a distraction, or worse yet, blinding, then they become worse than what they were supposed to alleviate.
Many of them work perfectly, but in a 'brighter is always better' world, many others are now worsening traffic safety.

When you say 'worsening traffic safety', you have actual statistics that show that DRL's on certain vehicles have led to an increased number of accidents?
I ask because I personally have never been blinded (or at least have never felt blinded) by DRL's during the day.
The only time I can recall being distracted by DRL's was the first time seeing the current Hyundai Tucson's garish setup. I was like 'WTF is that?' I didn't have an accident, but it did take up a bit of my attention. But that was only the first time, when the model first came out - now that there are more of them, they don't distract me.
And if I'm being honest, I was initially distracted because I was trying to figure out what kind of car it was, because I've always been a car/bike nut.


Another poor decision made was that of not turning on all marker lights as well, leaving us with cars running around at night with headlights, but no taillights.
Worse yet, the ever greater presence of streetlights has left us with cars going around at night with no lights on at all, either out of mischief, attempts to go incognito or simply not realizing they're off, since it's so well lit even without them.

Ultimately, the onus is on the driver to remember to turn their headlights on when it gets dark out.

And if that's asking too much, no problem. In a couple of decades when driverless vehicles become the norm and then mandatory, our grandchildren won't have to worry about glarey DRL's, or headlights, or streetlights, or texting while driving, or getting their license..... 😄
 

jaycee88

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DRLs are meant to be seen, sure, but the LED DRLs are standing out even more in traffic, which is not its purpose. Its creating negative visual noise. And because LEDs are whitish, it stands out even more than the halogen lights in daylight. You're suppose to notice the DRLs and not fixate on it.

I can't say I've ever 'fixated' on DRL's other than to identify a DRL (and its car) that I haven't seen before....but that only happens the first time.

Other than that, when I'm driving/riding, I've never felt distracted by DRL's of any type, halogen or LED. The cars with DRL's are more conspicuous than cars without, especially in adverse conditions (e.g. overcast sky), but I don't find myself simply staring into the DRL's, if that's what you mean by 'fixate'.

Could there be some confirmation bias contributing to this? i.e. You believe that LED DRL's are a distraction, so you subconsciouly notice/pay attention to them more, and that basically confirms your belief.
And certainly, going onto a forum where others express the same, and that's just even more confirmation.
 

theory816

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I can't say I've ever 'fixated' on DRL's other than to identify a DRL (and its car) that I haven't seen before....but that only happens the first time.

Other than that, when I'm driving/riding, I've never felt distracted by DRL's of any type, halogen or LED. The cars with DRL's are more conspicuous than cars without, especially in adverse conditions (e.g. overcast sky), but I don't find myself simply staring into the DRL's, if that's what you mean by 'fixate'.

Could there be some confirmation bias contributing to this? i.e. You believe that LED DRL's are a distraction, so you subconsciouly notice/pay attention to them more, and that basically confirms your belief.
And certainly, going onto a forum where others express the same, and that's just even more confirmation.
Fixating was just an exaggeration to highlight the problem. Most people don't fixate on something when they are driving because its dangerous. Instead, anything that stands out in traffic causes our eyes to be drawn to it, whether in the peripherals or directly whereas if it hadn't been there, our eyes wouldn't be drawn to it. The fact is, LED DRLs stand out more in traffic because its very conspicuous. It is visual noise that is above other visual noise(billboards, trash etc).
There is no confirmation bias because our eyes all work the same, abiding by the same rules when light hits the eyeballs. And also one may just not be aware of the problem unless pointed out.
But its funny because your post is akin to someone saying that the streets littered with trash doesn't bother them lol.
 

bykfixer

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Many modern vehicles have an auto headlight feature where a sensor knows when its dark or wipers are on, then headlights are turned on. No need to turn on your lights with that feature. My work truck has a green lamp on the dash to tell me when the headlights are on.

It actually has an option to keep the lights on as day time running lights but since my bulbs are not LED I keep that turned off. My old jalopy Lexus, however has a pair of lamps if you will that are dedicated DRL's. If the car is running those lights are on. Yet they are not bright like the headlights.

In the area I live there is so much light pollution, especially when raining that you can drive around without head lights on and not even realize it. A few years back I got pulled over for driving without headlights on. I got a warning, but told the officer I could see just fine without them otherwise I would have remembered to turn them on. And that's why I use the auto feature these days.

But these days there are lots of vehicles on the road with blinding headlights. Especially emergency vehicles like rescue squads and fire trucks. Even their tail lights on some are so bright they blind you in the daytime.
 

jaycee88

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Fixating was just an exaggeration to highlight the problem. Most people don't fixate on something when they are driving because its dangerous. Instead, anything that stands out in traffic causes our eyes to be drawn to it, whether in the peripherals or directly whereas if it hadn't been there, our eyes wouldn't be drawn to it. The fact is, LED DRLs stand out more in traffic because its very conspicuous. It is visual noise that is above other visual noise(billboards, trash etc).

But isn't this a good thing? To notice the DRL's more than things which aren't important to driving safety, like billbooards and trash (unless the trash is sizeable and is in your path of travel LOL)?
Also, if you notice something in your periphery, it means you didn't need to look directly at it to notice it (literally the definition of peripheral vision). I'd say this is another benefit of DRL's - you'll sense there's a vehicle there, even if your eyes might not be looking directly at it.


There is no confirmation bias because our eyes all work the same, abiding by the same rules when light hits the eyeballs.

There is more to human vision than light simply hitting our eyeballs though. The brain needs to interpret the signals the eyeballs send.
DRL's standing out more than billboards is the way it should be, because when you're driving, you're not going to have a billboard turning left in front of you, it will be another vehicle. Unless it's one of those vehicles with billboards on them. :LOL:


And also one may just not be aware of the problem unless pointed out.

Maybe. I certainly have never considered it a problem, and I still don't. If you notice them, but have not fixated on them, what is the problem?
I certainly haven't been in a collision or even a close call due to being blinded or distracted by a DRL....have you?
(I'm assuming that we're talking about DRL use during the day, not at night which is a different matter)


But its funny because your post is akin to someone saying that the streets littered with trash doesn't bother them lol.

Should it? When you're driving, your attention should be on traffic around you. The only time you should be bothered by trash is if it's something like a sofa in your path of travel - something that is a real hazard.

When you're a passenger, then of course you can feel free to observe how the neighborhood has gone downhill. :)
 
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theory816

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But isn't this a good thing? To notice the DRL's more than things which aren't important to driving safety, like billbooards and trash (unless the trash is sizeable and is in your path of travel LOL)?
Also, if you notice something in your periphery, it means you didn't need to look directly at it to notice it (literally the definition of peripheral vision). I'd say this is another benefit of DRL's - you'll sense there's a vehicle there, even if your eyes might not be looking directly at it.




There is more to human vision than light simply hitting our eyeballs though. The brain needs to interpret the signals the eyeballs send.
DRL's standing out more than billboards is the way it should be, because when you're driving, you're not going to have a billboard turning left in front of you, it will be another vehicle. Unless it's one of those vehicles with billboards on them. :LOL:




Maybe. I certainly have never considered it a problem, and I still don't. If you notice them, but have not fixated on them, what is the problem?
I certainly haven't been in a collision or even a close call due to being blinded or distracted by a DRL....have you?
(I'm assuming that we're talking about DRL use during the day, not at night which is a different matter)




Should it? When you're driving, your attention should be on traffic around you. The only time you should be bothered by trash is if it's something like a sofa in your path of travel - something that is a real hazard.

When you're a passenger, then of course you can feel free to observe how the neighborhood has gone downhill. :)
The public domain has a ton of problems. Driving has a ton of problems. Really this is just another set of problems for driving. As we speak, the damage is already done and nothing can really be done about it. The standards and laws set out by the manufacturers and government tried to make driving comfortable and safe. But marketing and greed took over. And now what you have is visual pollution, on top of more pollution.
 
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kaichu dento

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I personally have never been blinded (or at least have never felt blinded) by DRL's during the day.

Ultimately, the onus is on the driver to remember to turn their headlights on when it gets dark out.
Many people are though and your insistence that it's not an issue because you have eyes that aren't bothered by any of the lights now coming down the road needs to be backed up by studies proving that no one else is affected. Otherwise your statements aren't believable, or at least that's what you're throwing down at the rest of us.
Our experiences need to be backed up by statistics, but yours don't.

Then you cancel out all reason to even have the DRL's in place since it's on the drivers themselves to use their equipment properly, and it should have just been left at that.

Keep contradicting yourself in order to try and win an argument by backing both sides of it. Annoying, but also a bit interesting to watch.
 

bykfixer

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I've never really seen day time running lights as a benefit anymore than everybody running around honking the horn. If some do and some don't use them I do notice that because it's something different from the rest of the crowd. It's like those bloaks with loud motorcycles who say it makes them safer because they can be heard more. Yet I don't hear them approaching, just when they've gone past because the sound comes out of the rear.
Jet airplanes?.... yeah I hear them coming. Quite a ways off actually. But motorcycles? Not really. They need to have giant woofers with snoop dawg bumpin' to be heard as you can hear that approaching.

So if the day time running lights were twirling like on a freight train I'd notice them. Those folks with extra bright drl's are just another annoyance in my view.
 

idleprocess

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It's almost like ... there are studies on this subject (general safety assessment):
TL;DR - there's a slight reduction in accidents when vehicles have DRLs.

Looking at glare:
TL;DR - 7000cd intensity is associated with discomfort-inducing glare while reducing DRL intensity to 1500cd would result in negligible discomfort while still presenting significant safety benefits.

Based on the prior ... I don't know what the regs are on DRLs but man do those Super Duty bracket DRLs pump out a lot of omnidirectional lumens.
 

theory816

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I've never really seen day time running lights as a benefit anymore than everybody running around honking the horn. If some do and some don't use them I do notice that because it's something different from the rest of the crowd. It's like those bloaks with loud motorcycles who say it makes them safer because they can be heard more. Yet I don't hear them approaching, just when they've gone past because the sound comes out of the rear.
Jet airplanes?.... yeah I hear them coming. Quite a ways off actually. But motorcycles? Not really. They need to have giant woofers with snoop dawg bumpin' to be heard as you can hear that approaching.

So if the day time running lights were twirling like on a freight train I'd notice them. Those folks with extra bright drl's are just another annoyance in my view.
DRLs simply increases the awareness of a car for a pedestrian or driver. That's all their main purpose. And they do work. But what marketing has done is stylized it using LEDs and made it more noticeable than what was intended because the white LEDs create a very strong contrast. If everyone used white LED DRLs, then it would be less of a problem but the issue is that they don't because older cars don't use white LEDs, so now you have a mixing of light that creates visual noise.
 

jaycee88

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Many people are though and your insistence that it's not an issue because you have eyes that aren't bothered by any of the lights now coming down the road needs to be backed up by studies proving that no one else is affected. Otherwise your statements aren't believable, or at least that's what you're throwing down at the rest of us.
Our experiences need to be backed up by statistics, but yours don't.

Interesting you say that, because you haven't provided statistics to back up your assertion that DRL's are 'worsening traffic safety'. DOT has basically been wishy-washy about DRL's which is why they're not mandated in the U.S., but they also have not prohibited them either.

Personally, DRL's don't bother me. That's just my experience. Do they bother you? Have you personally been blinded or distracted by DRL's to the point where you had an accident, or otherwise 'worsened traffic safety'?

Then you cancel out all reason to even have the DRL's in place since it's on the drivers themselves to use their equipment properly, and it should have just been left at that.

In what way does saying that drivers need to turn their headlights on at night cancel out all reason to even have DRL's? DRL's and headlights serve different purposes. A DRL does not function well as a headlight, at all.* I assumed you knew that.

* Except in the case where the DRL is the low beam of a headlight running at full intensity.
 
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jaycee88

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Based on the prior ... I don't know what the regs are on DRLs but man do those Super Duty bracket DRLs pump out a lot of omnidirectional lumens.

From my reading of the FMVSS 108 test procedures, no point in the beam of a dedicated DRL may exceed 3000cd, unless the DRL is a high beam DRL in which case there is one point which has a maxima of 7000cd.

I'm not familiar with the Super Duty DRL's, are they actually DRL's, or are they auxiliary lamps?
 
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idleprocess

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From my reading of the FMVSS 108 test procedures, no point in the beam of a DRL may exceed 3000cd, unless the DRL is a high beam DRL in which case there is one point which has a maxima of 7000cd.
Note that the study was from 1998 so things have likely changed since then.

I'm not familiar with the Super Duty DRL's, are they actually DRL's, or are they auxiliary lamps?
They're separate assemblies from the high beams, thus I'd say they're aux lamps. While the style has evolved over time, the 2017 model here is reasonably indicative; the white 'brackets' around the headlights are the DRL. Subjectively they seem to put out markedly more light than other DRLs - to the point that to the driver (especially the demo that's all about that foreground light with fog lights and lightbars) might not know their low beam headlights are off.
 

jaycee88

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They're separate assemblies from the high beams, thus I'd say they're aux lamps. While the style has evolved over time, the 2017 model here is reasonably indicative; the white 'brackets' around the headlights are the DRL. Subjectively they seem to put out markedly more light than other DRLs - to the point that to the driver (especially the demo that's all about that foreground light with fog lights and lightbars) might not know their low beam headlights are off.

Ah, okay, I've seen those on the road. Are these the ones that also do double duty as turn signals?
Without doing photometric testing, it's hard to know for sure if they're not actually compliant with regulations
 

idleprocess

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Ah, okay, I've seen those on the road. Are these the ones that also do double duty as turn signals?
Perhaps? Living in the DFW metro - one of the regional capitals of Truckistan - the brodozer demo that tends to inhabit these things isn't exactly ... community minded ... thus turn signal usage isn't common.
 

theory816

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Interesting you say that, because you haven't provided statistics to back up your assertion that DRL's are 'worsening traffic safety'. DOT has basically been wishy-washy about DRL's which is why they're not mandated in the U.S., but they also have not prohibited them either.

Personally, DRL's don't bother me. That's just my experience. Do they bother you? Have you personally been blinded or distracted by DRL's to the point where you had an accident, or otherwise 'worsened traffic safety'?



In what way does saying that drivers need to turn their headlights on at night cancel out all reason to even have DRL's? DRL's and headlights serve different purposes. A DRL does not function well as a headlight, at all.* I assumed you knew that.

* Except in the case where the DRL is the low beam of a headlight running at full intensity.
Its important to note that just because something does not cause an accident doesn't mean it doesn't cause driving discomfort(no one said that it causes accidents.). Many things don' cause accidents and arn't crucial from getting you to A and B. Its more about driving comfort. The different and inconsistent lighting creates distraction and friction for comfortable driving.

A good example of this would be christmas lights. If you take all all yellow string of lights and replace a few bulbs wit LED white lights, youre creating visual noise. Try it the next time you hang christmas lights and you'll know what I'm talking about.
 
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