They stopped selling SUREFIRES because of price hike

ToddM

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I would guess dare I say it that some places surefire's are not a huge selling item in the first place. It can't be easy to sell a $100+ flashlight that uses $12 in batteries every hour to the general public.

Add to that the recient increase and dealer price fixing that surefire has done in order to even the playing field between online sellers and in store retailers and I'd guess that some places are going to drop the surefire line.

Will it be a problem for surefire....of course not. Benchmade went through the same thing a couple years ago. It probably impacted their sales but it was soon forgot about. I mean really if you can convince someone to buy a $100 flashlight is it that hard to convince them to buy a $130 flashlight
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Not to mention I'd bet a huge % of surefire's business is by LEO/Military contract compared to it's general public sales. So if their general public sales take a 5-10% decrease due to price increases it's a tiny tiny share and it's more than made up for by the price increase across the board.

Of course that's all just speculation on my part and may be way off. Surefire is the only one that could tell us for sure and from past experience with companies and unpopular policies I bet they don't, and frankly it's none of our business. If we don't like what they do or what they charge we don't have to buy their products.

Most likely dealers will find a way around it. Free shipping for surefire orders over $xx.xx or free batteries or spare lamp included etc. Some places have already started this.

Todd
 

brightnorm

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ToddM:
I would guess dare I say it that some places surefire's are not a huge selling item in the first place.... Todd<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good points ToddM

Brightnorm
 

lightlover

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There may be a story somewhere behind this.
It could be an example of a sales outlet bravely protecting it's customers from a price increase.
I don't know if it's a case of "did they fall, or were they pushed" !

Would the not-so-terribly enormous increase have impacted more on their profits or their principles ?

QUOTE:
"Due to a recent HUGE price increase, we will no longer sell Surefire Products.
Instead we'll bring you similiar Tactical Lights of comparable quality at substantial discount."

There isn't anything of comparable quality - that's why the xxxxxx things cost so much.

lightlover
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(A full discussion on the January SF price increase is on SFDB, in a topic of exhaustive detail and considerable length.)
 
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**DONOTDELETE**

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Hey there are a lot of people who think Surefire products are just too overpriced (including myself). I remember seeing a thread where a couple of CPF members were even talking about a boycott (among themselves anyway) of SF products.

Anyway is the M2 really 4 times better than the Scorpion or 6.5(!) times better then the LX?

Also note that with several SFs you throw out a perfectly good reflector when the globe dies. $17 for a P60 vs $4 for the Scorpion bulb. You do the maths.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>dealer price fixing that surefire has done<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Isn't this in violation of some anti-trust laws in the US? This action would breach the Trade Practices Act in Australia.
 

bwcaw

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Someguy:


Anyway is the M2 really 4 times better than the Scorpion or 6.5(!) times better then the LX?


.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
YES, and definately YES!
 

txwest

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One thing that's being overlooked here, I believe, is that SureFire didn't get any benefit from most of this "price increase". What caused the change in consumer price was that SF set a min. discount off list so the distributers couldn't sell the lights at "dealer" cost to the consumer & still make a profit. For the dealers to compete, they would have to sell the item at their cost, & we all know you can't stay in business that way. TX
 

Steve-at-Springboard

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As far as the Scorpion bulbs go, I believe the Scorpion manual suggests that they last about 4 hours. Surefire used to spec the P60 at 16 hours. When I do the math, it comes out pretty even.

A friend of mine loves Scorpions and sells them. He made a statement at a dinner party that the beam was just as good as a Surefire 6P and perhaps a little brighter. I didn't say a word, but took out my personal 6P and put it on the table next to his Scorpion for all to see and try. His response after all the tests?, "Well, my batteries are a little tired".

He also thinks his batteries last 4 to 5 hours per set.

The Scorpion is a very good light for the money but its no Surefire (actually its a copy). It has no optional bulbs, no recharge kit, no 9V option, no shock bezel option, no color option and, I don't think it has any filters or beamshaper-type options.
 

txwest

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Steve,
I think the battery on the Scorpion is rated at an hour, same as the 6P. If he had 3 or 4 hrs on his battery, I understand why the 6P was brighter. My ARC SE would have been brighter.
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TX
 
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**DONOTDELETE**

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What caused the change in consumer price was that SF set a min. discount off list so the distributers couldn't sell the lights at "dealer" cost<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is called resale price maintenance.. when a manufacturer (in this case SF) forces retailers to sell goods at a minimum price set by the manufacturer. This is *prohibited* by law in Australia and I'd be surprised if it wasn't the same in the US. SF can only recommend a minimum price but any attempts to enforce it (by cancelling a supply agreement for example) would breach the law.

My gut feeling is that SF jacked up prices to the dealers as all the evidence seems to point in this direction.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>YES, and definately YES!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No.. seriously? Here are my opinions:

Shock-isolated bezel
--------------------
According to several comments made by CPF members, it seems like this feature (the bits of rubber to soften the impact) doesn't work very well. The Scorpion has a rubber ring around the bulb which could also help "isolate" the bulb from a severe shock. Even the UK2L has more "shock isolation" than the M2.

Recharge kit
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Yeah for the price of a new rechargable torch.

Option 1 - Get an C2 with a recharger kit (and end up with 1 switchable torch)
or
Option 2 - Get a Scorpion AND a Stinger (plus several bulbs and lithium batteries to even out the price difference!)

Filter and beamshapers
----------------------
How many of you SF owners have AND use the filters and beamshapers regularly. I'm betting only a small percentage. If you really want coloured lights, use a Luxeon. You'll get more light with infinitely longer runtime (well about 5x anyway).

Type III anodising
------------------
I'd take the rubber sleeve of the Scorpion anyday. You get a much more secure grip, its a lot easier to keep it looking new and it never feels cold to the touch.

Bulb
----
16 hours for P60... are you sure about that? I've never seen that anywhere else.

Beam quality
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This issue is debateable. SFs have a larger hotspot with a small spill beam. The opposite is true for the Scorpion. Which one you prefer is up to you as I wouldn't mind either.

Optional bulb
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Nice idea but when the runtime is reduced to 20 minutes for a $5 set of batteries (or $10 if you don't shop around), its just not economical. Even 1 hour of runtime at $5 is pretty steep.

This is probably why other manufacturers who choose to make small/powerful torches make them rechargable. The $/lumen figure for torches using lithiums is *very* high in comparison.

Lockout tailcap
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OK you win here. This is the only feature in SFs that I think is truly great. Simple, effective but not worth the extra *large* amount of cash.

There you go my opinion. I think thats enough said.
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flashfan

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I don't have the M2, but do have a few Surefire lights.

In any event, I think that the SF 6P provides more of an "apples to apples" comparison with the Scorpion. And for me, in most instances, and if given just these two choices, I would opt for the Scorpion over the SF 6P.

I still remember receiving the 6P (older version), putting in the high output lamp, and expecting it to blow away the Scorpion. I was very disappointed--to my untrained eyes, there seemed to be little if any difference between the output of the two lights. I was so disappointed that I almost returned the 6P. (I'm waiting for the SF A19 adapter to return, so that I can turn my 6P into a 9P.)

Personally, I also like the rubber sleeve on the Scorpion, and wish SF offered one as an accessory. And until the LOTCs were introduced, I felt the Scorpion switch was less likely to turn on accidentally.

Admittedly, SureFire has since made many improvements in their line, and I was sorely tempted to pick up the M2. Eventually I decided against it because of cost. I do not need lights for "tactical" purposes, and couldn't justify the added cost for the same light output as the 6P. The M2 also seems to be a bit bulkier.

No matter how "cool" the M2 looks, and the extra features it has, it didn't really meet my "needs."
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All in all, my opinion is that for general use, the Scorpion provides the best "bang for the buck."

If you're still reading this post, you sure are tenacious!
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ToddM

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Well if you consider my post a criticism I own one scorpion (in fact the only streamligth I own, though soon to add a ultrastinger) and 7 surefire lights.
 

txwest

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I own 4 SL's, includeing the Scorpion, & I believe 11 (maybe 12) SF's, includeing the M2. I like them all. In the 6V, small, lithium powered, high output lights, I think the Scorpion is the most bang-for-the-buck. This is based on non-tactical use. If the LX were shaped differently so it was easier to carry, I'ld class it as the most bang-for-the-buck. Once again, this is based on non-tactical use! Just my 3 cents. TX
 

ToddM

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As for the stinger -vs- the M2 in my opinion the M2 certainly is a better light, is it 5x better. Honestly that depends on your needs.

I like the lockout tailcap on the M2 for sure.

The shock isolated bezel is a good idea but again bulb blowing issues don't seem to be that big of a deal in either light. I do like that the scorpion has a spare bulb in the flashlight and it's cheaper to replace. However the surefire bulbs from what I've read are supposed to last 15-20 hours. The scorpion bulb from 3-5 hours. So while it's only 1/4th of the price of a surefire bulb over the long haul it's the same cost of operation. Same with batteries, they are both supposed to run a hour with similar light outputs.

I do like the adjustable beam on the scorpion, however I'd like it more if it allowed a even tighter spot. Mine will go just a touch tighter than my 6P but not much, I do like the very wide focus for some work. Beam quality on both is very good.

The switch on the scorpion is a little hard for me to activate to constant on.

Also it's been well documented that the scorpion is anything but water resistant. The hard anodized coating is nice but again not really needed.

The pyrex lens of the M2 is nice especially if you plan long term use or high output use. Not sure if the scorpion can melt it's lens if used constant on for a long time. (don't really want to try and melt mine
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)

If your abusing your light every day, need water resistance, need the high output bulb option, and require the lock out tail cap then sure the M2 is certainly worth the extra $. If your just looking to toss a light in the glovebox for occasional use for $30 it's pretty hard to beat the scorpion.

It's a lot like knives, most of us could all get away using a $25 buck for every knife chore we do. However some of us choose to carry knives of much higher quality and price. It's not always a matter of rational need
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**DONOTDELETE**

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Those favoring the scorpion over the M2:

Do you have both? I can't imagine if you had both that you would still carry and use the scorpion. Most people who criticize SF lights only go off of the spec sheet. Just curious.
 
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**DONOTDELETE**

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I can't imagine if you had both that you would still carry and use the scorpion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not saying the M2 isn't a better light, but I don't think its 4x better.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Also it's been well documented that the scorpion is anything but water resistant<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Really. I tried putting my Scorpion in a 9L bucket for around an hour and there wasn't a problem.

The pseudo o-ring (the extrusion on rubber sleeve) works OK but I wouldn't mind seeing more waterproofing features.

If you're abusing your light every day, I think the rubber sleeve would protect a torch more effectively (or at least keep it looking newer) than the Type III anodizing.
 

WarrenI

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It's funny that this is making itself known now. A while back I mentioned conversations I had with the local LEOs. Many of them have much knowledge about SFs, but do not use them. The run times were just too short and the battery cost were too high. They did not need the beam to the most perfect and they needed to think of their lights a working tool.

The SWAT teams have several SFs, but they are the gun mount versions. They try not to use it unless it is time to make their move. Their main hand held lights for SWAT are Streamlights, with Mags and Streamlights for patrol. I've seen many damaged lights, esp. for the patrol guys. When handling a situation, I've seen clubs and lights being thrown or tossed (sometimes hitting the subject). Of course, their piece of carry not be tossed would be their sidearm.

The local fire department has a basic requirement that any light should last no shorter than 3 hours without battery changes. The bulb must be shock resistant. They are very leary about bulbs that burn very bright, as they will tend to burn out when subjected by their shock test.
 

brightnorm

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WarrenI:

The local fire department has a basic requirement that any light should last no shorter than 3 hours without battery changes. The bulb must be shock resistant. They are very leary about bulbs that burn very bright, as they will tend to burn out when subjected by their shock test.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WarrenI,

What lights is the FD using, and what bulbs?

Brightnorm
 
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