True cost to run EV like paying $17.33 per gallon if not for $22 billion in government subsidies.

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kaichu dento

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I'm not the one who starts making these threads political along the lines I mentioned here.
You don't have to, because they're already political in nature from the outset in the way they've been pushed into the spotlight. Never should have been a political subject, but once it's open, you'll never be able to close Pandora's box, no matter how many words are used.
Here's the thing-being closed minded drives me nuts.
Right? Well here's the thing, you might be shocked to realize how much of it shows up in your posts.
You have said you bike, drive, walk or take the train, depending upon the situation.
Fixed that for you. I also walk, sometimes little, sometimes a lot, but I'll never field objection over others not doing so as well. My choice for me, their choice for them.
Unfortunately, many people in the US simply won't even consider not driving regardless of the situation.
Unfortunately too many people, (including the ones who made this conversation political in the first place) want to insert themselves into the lives of others and tell them what they can't do, what they have to do. Brought to you, with no courtesy whatsoever, by the same people calling us science deniers, with no apparent evidence that they even know what science is in the first place.
Even worse is the way quite a few of these people drive. You would probably need to be on the receiving end of this to understand it fully.
There's another one of those statements. How is it that you think I've ridden bicycles for years on both sides of the Pacific, along narrow highways with no shoulder, in rural Japan with steep drop off road edges, in crowded cities, and not been on the receiving end of rudeness and dangerous behaviour, from vehicle drivers, other cyclists, pedestrians and motor cyclists?
 

jtr1962

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How is it that you think I've ridden bicycles for years on both sides of the Pacific, along narrow highways with no shoulder, in rural Japan with steep drop off road edges, in crowded cities, and not been on the receiving end of rudeness and dangerous behaviour, from vehicle drivers, other cyclists, pedestrians and motor cyclists?
I'm sure you have. And I'm sure you've been on the receiving end of crap while walking as well. Maybe you're OK just passively accepting it as business as usual. I'm not.

I wasn't implying that you never experienced this stuff. I just don't know if you live in a place where it occurs multiple times whenever you're out. Big difference between that and very occasional occurrences.

Don't know if you've ever been to NYC, but the driving habits here are absolutely atrocious.

For your entertainment:











That's just a few. There are dozens more on this channel.

When I used to cross streets with my mother and the cars got the green, they just started moving, oblivious to her still crossing the street. I had to put my hands up and scream at them to get them to stop.

Unfortunately too many people, (including the ones who made this conversation political in the first place) want to insert themselves into the lives of others and tell them what they can't do, what they have to do.
Only when it negatively affects us. I actually tolerate a lot of stuff that drives other people crazy. But I draw the line if it can hurt me or negatively affect my health.
Brought to you, with no courtesy whatsoever, by the same people calling us science deniers, with no apparent evidence that they even know what science is in the first place.
None of what I wrote about road carnage has anything to do with climate change.

Regarding "close-mindedness":

Sure, I'll admit I may seem close minded at times because I adhere to the idea that your freedoms end when they negatively affect others. That's a hard line for me. It's also a big part of what's known as civilization. I'd love to just start screwing every pretty girl I pass on the street but the law wisely says I'll be locked up if I do that. Closer to the topic at hand, in places where driving has more negative effects (i.e. big cities) we have the right to restrict it, even sometimes curtail it entirely, for the public good. On the flip side, if a person wants to do something which only harms themselves, have at it. I hate nanny state laws which try to protect people from themselves.
 
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Toulouse42

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I lost my best friend recently. He didn't die but just stopped talking to me. He is one of these people who sees the world in black and white terms, as in "Political Party A good, Party B bad" terms. He is also the same about Climate Change - no shades of grey. I often tried to introduce those shades of grey, and then eventually I gave up. It became clear that he just wanted to talk but not listen. One day our conversation strayed into religion and I made a comment that I think broke the proverbial camel's back. I should have known better but the older I get, the less I can tolerate people who are dogmatic about complicated issues, or who just want to contradict everything I say.

Just wanted to say that I still enjoy the contributions on CPF but unlike some, I really don't enjoy the ping pong which sometimes gets a little OTT.
 

bykfixer

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I see you didn't mention which side either of you is on. Bravo!

I can't say I've ever lost a friend over politics or climate change (which I think is political as well) but some family were barely speaking to one another over it. When they are at my house I have a hard fast rule. No talk of politics, or religion. One year I kicked my brother out because he kept bringing up politics at a family gathering. He couldn't belive it and wouldn't leave. He was flabergasted when I said "leave or I'm calling the police". Thing is he agree with me politically but out of respect for those with differing opinions I chose to make sure everybody understood I was serious about it. They all stopped coming over after that and stayed mad at me for quite some time.

I said "look, there are 9,743 things we agree on and 2 we don't, stop talking about what we don't".

I see the American government as two groups trying to drive us off a cliff. One in a rocket ship, the other in a slow moving train. But both lead to the same destination as they enrich themselves at our expense.

IMG_2371.jpeg
 
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Monocrom

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Remind me never to get on your bad side. Damn, I thought my family could be vengeful. They got nothing on you.
No worries, even when we strongly, fundamentally disagree; you've never once tried to dismiss my opposing view points as being silly or unimportant. I appreciate that. If you showed up at the front door of my Lounge, the Bouncer would politely refuse admittance since your name is not on that list, and never has been.
Mind if I send a former friend to the I Hate Monocrom Lounge? That's the guy I mentioned a few times who made a cottage industry out of knocking everything I ever did. Can you serve him up some nice chocolate ice cream as well, but made from the other kind of chocolate?
Ah yes, I know exactly what you mean. I'll serve him up some Carob. ;)
 
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I lost my best friend recently. He didn't die but just stopped talking to me. He is one of these people who sees the world in black and white terms, as in "Political Party A good, Party B bad" terms. He is also the same about Climate Change - no shades of grey. I often tried to introduce those shades of grey, and then eventually I gave up. It became clear that he just wanted to talk but not listen. One day our conversation strayed into religion and I made a comment that I think broke the proverbial camel's back. I should have known better but the older I get, the less I can tolerate people who are dogmatic about complicated issues, or who just want to contradict everything I say.

Just wanted to say that I still enjoy the contributions on CPF but unlike some, I really don't enjoy the ping pong which sometimes gets a little OTT.
Still ... If you listed all the off-topic posts in this thread, 👆that one would certainly make the list. :yellowlaugh:

L@@K at me. Now I'm off-topic. 😁

Addendum: What the heck? In for a penny. In for a pound.

I'm sorry for the loss you must be feeling. I know it hurts. Truth be told, if he wouldn't engage in civil discourse with you, well, he wasn't a friend worth having. It's taken me many years to accept that fact. True friends care about your opinions and are willing to listen to them as well as share their own.
 
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jtr1962

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I lost my best friend recently. He didn't die but just stopped talking to me. He is one of these people who sees the world in black and white terms, as in "Political Party A good, Party B bad" terms. He is also the same about Climate Change - no shades of grey. I often tried to introduce those shades of grey, and then eventually I gave up. It became clear that he just wanted to talk but not listen. One day our conversation strayed into religion and I made a comment that I think broke the proverbial camel's back. I should have known better but the older I get, the less I can tolerate people who are dogmatic about complicated issues, or who just want to contradict everything I say.

Just wanted to say that I still enjoy the contributions on CPF but unlike some, I really don't enjoy the ping pong which sometimes gets a little OTT.
Sometimes you just have to get toxic people out of your life. I did the same last year with a person I've associated with on and off since 2006. He changed. We could no longer just talk about common interests. Instead, no matter the topic, he would find some reason to inject criticism of me. Not even constructive criticism mind you. I'm talking about chastising me for stuff I did or didn't do 35 or 40 years ago. "Oh, you should have tried harder to use your engineering degree. Why didn't you get married and have children? Why did you stay with your parents? Why didn't you date?" Then he would dismiss all my reasons for not doing stuff he thought I should have. Meanwhile, he got divorced after a few years, had one kid he was mostly estranged from, moved back in with his parents at 47, and had many years where he didn't even make five figures. Hardly a person to give advice.

Then he always constantly asked me to do favors, acting like he was doing me a favor by giving me the "opportunity" to do favors for him. And the constant, long phone calls. Major time sink. Complete narcissist, too. Both my siblings agreed with me 100% on that.

He actually suggested last year we not have contact for a while. I guess the arguments were getting tiresome even for him. So I obliged. I enjoyed it so much when he contacted me a few months later I wrote him a nice, long send off letter. Haven't had any contact since.

Then there was another person who trivialized it when I was depressed over my cat dying in early 2021. I cut him loose too.

Like you, the older I get the less patience I have for stupidity, dogmatic viewpoints, or constant fighting.
 

KITROBASKIN

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What was the topic???
Some people don't like electric vehicles because they don't have the internal combustion sound? Current technology is not good enough?

Monocrom; You made my day with your kind comments. What you probably don't know is some of your written beliefs are shared by more of us than we will admit.
 

alpg88

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IT is not the sound, modern cars are just as quiet, most noise is actually tire noise these days, i'm talking about unmolested cars, nor hyper performance v8s. EVs are not practical in high density cities just yet, nor on a long trips. Some here try to tie it with toxic masculinity, which is a fallacy by itself, but it has nothing to with it for most people
 

bykfixer

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I wonder if it has more to do with the mentality of the driver, not the vehicle itself. And coincidently the worst drivers drive Tesla's, Ram's and Suburu's. (I know several Suburu drivers who drive carefully by the way)

If so I'd say Tesla are on average occupied by distracted drivers in general who live in a bubble, Ram's by over taxed drivers (as in tired construction folks) and Suburu's distracted soccer moms and dads with bratty kids. I'd also say if they showed which model of each that may shed some light on it.
 
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IMA SOL MAN

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I wonder if it has more to do with the mentality of the driver, not the vehicle itself. And coincidently the worst drivers drive Tesla's, Ram's and Suburu's. (I know several Suburu drivers who drive carefully by the way)

If so I'd say Tesla are on average occupied by distracted drivers in general who live in a bubble, Ram's by over taxed drivers (as in tired construction folks) and Suburu's distracted soccer moms and dads with bratty kids. I'd also say if they showed which model of each that may shed some light on it.
Well, if you read the linked article, which I just skimmed, it looks like the problem with the Tesla is the auto pilot feature. IIRC, Subaru has some kind of auto pilot, or auto brake? Maybe that is the problem. IDK, just guessing.

I imagine the bulk of the problem is people who text and drive, or otherwise drive irresponsibly. Maybe irresponsible people are just drawn to those three vehicles? Just a guess.
 

jtr1962

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From the observations of both myself and my brother, black SUVs seem to have the worst drivers. That doesn't necessarily imply a higher crash rate, but it sure as heck results in a lot of "almosts".

I concur that the Tesla autopilot feature might be the culprit. It's not designed to be used without the driver ready to take over if something goes wrong. People being idiots of course, they don't use it that way.

The Ram lives up to its name coming in second.
 

alpg88

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From what i see daily on roads, in my 30+ years driving in NYC, bmw and infinity are the biggest a holes, regardless of color or vehicle type, teslas are not even on my radar.
 
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