True cost to run EV like paying $17.33 per gallon if not for $22 billion in government subsidies.

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Toulouse42

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The Tesla Model Y is the best selling car in the world. https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/26/23738581/tesla-model-y-ev-record-world-bestselling-car-electric

EV adoption in the world is happening quickly, however the USA is divided.

Both my Teslas cost less than this. Kelley Blue Book puts the average cost of a new car at $48,008 as of March 2023. That's 1.1% lower than the average price in February, which was $48,558.Dec 28, 2023

The electric experience in my family has been very positive and inexpensive. A year of energy for both transportation and household was $550. Our next upgrades will be more solar and house battery. Then heat pumps for heating, cooling and hot water.

Do you think that repeating the same thing over and over again is going to change minds? My 5 year old grandson does it and because I love him deeply, he can get away with it.

You, not so much.

I used to say that the car you buy is a compromise between what you want, what you need and what you can afford. In a free country I can buy whatever car I want if I can afford it. Now we have to add to that mix - what your government will allow you to own.

I would say more but that's a waste of my time.

PS - Mr Ed - is there no way to stop this irritation?
 

mrfixitman

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Do you think that repeating the same thing over and over again is going to change minds? My 5 year old grandson does it and because I love him deeply, he can get away with it.

You, not so much.

I used to say that the car you buy is a compromise between what you want, what you need and what you can afford. In a free country I can buy whatever car I want if I can afford it. Now we have to add to that mix - what your government will allow you to own.

I would say more but that's a waste of my time.

PS - Mr Ed - is there no way to stop this irritation?
Mr. Ed was kind enough to explain what I did wrong. If you care about your grandson, you should take this seriously: https://www.healthday.com/health-news/mental-health/air-pollution-2659315554.html There might be unintended consequences to GM, Ford and Toyota. Cheap EVs are coming. Bankruptcy is a real danger if big auto doesn't step up. It's hard to turn a big ship and they are headed for the rocks because they can't make a profit. The Chinese and Tesla do.
 
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At this point I think @mrfixitman needs to accept that this is a flashlight forum that has a separate "Cafe" section for random thoughts on any topic. EVs are neither the priority nor passion for most members here. Our main interest (obviously) is flashlights.

I understand the need to reduce pollution because of the harm it does to this and the many following generations. But just as it would be irritating and discourteous to berate and scold any random in-person stranger who smokes or drinks soda by quoting the many studies that state tobacco and excess sugar causes harm; the same effect is in trying to convince this group of the evils of the ICE. Most of us care very little to not at all. Most of us are here to talk about flashlights.

So perhaps just keep the conversation about flashlights. Take the high road and ignore any opinions expressed about EVs.

If you seek an audience who shares the same passion for EVs, there's this forum.
 

mrfixitman

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At this point I think @mrfixitman needs to accept that this is a flashlight forum that has a separate "Cafe" section for random thoughts on any topic. EVs are neither the priority nor passion for most members here. Our main interest (obviously) is flashlights.

I understand the need to reduce pollution because of the harm it does to this and the many following generations. But just as it would be irritating and discourteous to berate and scold any random in-person stranger who smokes or drinks soda by quoting the many studies that state tobacco and excess sugar causes harm; the same effect is in trying to convince this group of the evils of the ICE. Most of us care very little to not at all. Most of us are here to talk about flashlights.

So perhaps just keep the conversation about flashlights. Take the high road and ignore any opinions expressed about EVs.

If you seek an audience who shares the same passion for EVs, there's this forum.
Just trying to debunk EV misconceptions. Like EVs don't work in Chicago cold but in colder Norway.. It wasn't the cold, it was inexperienced Lyft and Uber drivers with new EVs and at the same time a storm. Then not knowing what to do, driving from charger to charger, having the same problem, then running out of charge. That didn't happen to those that charged at home, or poured a little hot water on the sticking parts.
 

mrfixitman

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It must be noted that there are a lot of hidden costs to gasoline and diesel, not to mention the damage to health. Gas would be $15 a gallon.. maybe more.


What would happen if fossil fuel subsidies were eliminated?


We estimate that scrapping explicit and implicit fossil-fuel subsidies would prevent 1.6 million premature deaths annually, raise government revenues by $4.4 trillion, and put emissions on track toward reaching global warming targets.Aug 24, 2023
1708713217810.png

https://www.imf.org › 2023/08/24


Fossil Fuel Subsidies Surged to Record $7 Trillion

 

mrfixitman

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I don't agree. Lithium mining, other battery components and their construction as well as end of life disposal is not ready for prime time.


My point is that we don't have a stable or adequate grid. It is very fragile, not adequately serviced, transformers are dangerously old, and trying to get reliable solar and wind in many areas of the country are preposterous. You need to review current power sources: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

California was unable to have adequate electricity to charge EV's and home/commercial needs. Blackouts are still all too common.


That assumes the 65% of USA living in homes are willing to install charging stations, and that electric rates will not keep going up dramatically. Those in condos or apartment buildings are screwed.


https://www.caranddriver.com/research/a31875141/electric-car-battery-life/Again I don't agree if your battery lasts 8-12 years (which we don't know since there is not adequate track records yet) under a myriad of conditions, even having to pay a likely increasing cost of battery replacement is not feasible for many...especially with the ridiculous initial charges of EV's even with all the subsidies which we are also all paying for in taxes.


Nope, new technology has it up to 95% efficient. Burns clean.


Some good points. I don't really care about the air/noise pollution effects of ICE in large cities, as that's their personal choice to live there. Personally, I like the idea of using the oil and gas energy we have in our own country. Get rid of some of our $33T deficits and away from hostile middle east/Brazil oil sources. Current administration are complete idiots about nearly everything, including their approach to hydrocarbon & energy uses. Eventually If EV's become less expensive, and we can supply our own manufactured batteries, instead of depending on China, it may be more interesting. We are not there yet.

I don't believe that's right about hydrogen or fuel cells, and I don't care where the information comes from.....doesn't mean it's wrong if it comes from oil companies. I also don't agree that hydrogen fails on every technical issue. DOT is putting infrastructure for semi trucks across the country which is faster to fill. They wouldn't be doing that if EV's were the only solution.

I did notice this Toyota breakthrough which is interesting.

https://ts2.space/en/toyotas-new-battery-breakthrough-could-revolutionize-electric-vehicle-industry/
Toyota has been talking about a battery breakthrough for decades.... crickets..still waiting. Furthermore, I have a 200 amp service. My current charger (which cost $200, from Tesla) draws 32amps. 7.2kw. I could do 50 amps but why bother? The way I charge, it won't help much and I don't need the extra cost.
 
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mrfixitman

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Heck, if anything, mrfixitman has done a wonderful job convincing me that my next vehicle will absolutely be an ICE one.
It's a free country, the last time I checked. You should always do what you think is in your best interest. Here is another point of view to consider: EVs can absorb excess power when available and store that energy for future needs," said NREL's Paul Gasper, a battery degradation scientist. "There is potential to store renewable energy within the global EV fleet to improve the flexibility and resilience of our power grid."Oct 12, 2023

Electric Vehicles Play a Surprising Role in Supporting Grid ...


At least that is what I try to do at my house. At this point I can't really do that except at level 1 charging which takes days. Doesn't work if you need a full charge overnight. So more solar and house battery to come.
 

mrfixitman

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Toyota has been talking about a battery breakthrough for decades.... crickets..still waiting. Furthermore, I have a 200 amp service. My current charger (which cost $200, from Tesla) draws 32amps. 7.2kw. I could do 50 amps but why bother? The way I charge, it won't help much and I don't need the extra cost.

There is a kernel of truth to this. Oil doesn't wear out. It just get dirty. In a few million years it can be pumped and used again. However a better option is a Frantz toilet paper filter system.
 

Monocrom

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Sorry, but I honestly stopped reading your posts back in that 1st Amendment violation thread you made. Before it got locked, I pointed out exactly what needed to happen before the masses in America would adopt EVs. Out of several points I brought up, you chose to only respond to one of them. And to be honest, you really didn't do a good job of it on that one point. So, that tells me that you have no intelligent rebuttal to what I brought up in that topic. And yes, you had plenty of time to respond before the topic was locked. That tells me everything I need to know.

Now you're just going round and around, repeating the same thing over and over again. Pretty much everyone is sick of you now. Even those who like EVs. You're not on my Ignore List. But I'll be skipping past your posts from now on.
 

mrfixitman

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I don't agree. Lithium mining, other battery components and their construction as well as end of life disposal is not ready for prime time.
My Tesla is doing fine. My Leaf which I sold for $6k Had 98k on the clock and 9 bars of health and on a warm day could still get EPA range if driven slowly. It never really got EPA unless driven at 55mph. However I only paid $13,550 new so I got my money's worth. My son still drives our other Leaf in Portland. Took 36 hours to drive it from San Francisco. 60 miles at a time. Free car took the sting out of it. The Leaf is the best EV for reliability but the battery and range not so good. Avoid 2012 and earlier Leafs.
My point is that we don't have a stable or adequate grid. It is very fragile, not adequately serviced, transformers are dangerously old, and trying to get reliable solar and wind in many areas of the country are preposterous. You need to review current power sources: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

California was unable to have adequate electricity to charge EV's and home/commercial needs. Blackouts are still all too common.
Haven't had a blackout for quite a while in San Francisco. My measly 32 amps isn't going to hurt anything and I have a 200 amp service. I think my dryer uses more juice.
That assumes the 65% of USA living in homes are willing to install charging stations, and that electric rates will not keep going up dramatically. Those in condos or apartment buildings are screwed.
California law mandates grid access for tenants. However it's on their dime to install the lines.
https://www.caranddriver.com/research/a31875141/electric-car-battery-life/Again I don't agree if your battery lasts 8-12 years (which we don't know since there is not adequate track records yet) under a myriad of conditions, even having to pay a likely increasing cost of battery replacement is not feasible for many...especially with the ridiculous initial charges of EV's even with all the subsidies which we are also all paying for in taxes.
Our 2013 Leaf still going strong in Portland. Charging to 80% gets 60 miles. EPA is 84 miles. Tough little EV. Took it to San Diego but it takes a day.
Nope, new technology has it up to 95% efficient. Burns clean.


Some good points. I don't really care about the air/noise pollution effects of ICE in large cities, as that's their personal choice to live there. Personally, I like the idea of using the oil and gas energy we have in our own country. Get rid of some of our $33T deficits and away from hostile middle east/Brazil oil sources. Current administration are complete idiots about nearly everything, including their approach to hydrocarbon & energy uses. Eventually If EV's become less expensive, and we can supply our own manufactured batteries, instead of depending on China, it may be more interesting. We are not there yet.

I don't believe that's right about hydrogen or fuel cells, and I don't care where the information comes from.....doesn't mean it's wrong if it comes from oil companies. I also don't agree that hydrogen fails on every technical issue. DOT is putting infrastructure for semi trucks across the country which is faster to fill. They wouldn't be doing that if EV's were the only solution.
Hydrogen fails on every technical issue. That is mostly financial. It is really expensive and made from fossil fuel. Green hydrogen is only good for making steel.
Although hydrogen vehicles are generally more efficient than those fueled by petroleum, transporting and dispensing hydrogen is more expensive than for conventional fuel, so hydrogen must reach a cost substantially below $4/kg, possibly as low as $2/kg, to be a cost competitive option.

Can Green Hydrogen Be a Cost Competitive Transportation ...


November 2010 was when Toyota first announced it was pursuing solid-state EV batteries. 13+ years after that, the company issued a steady stream of press releases promising that this wonder-battery was definitely in development.Feb 13, 2024

Toyota's 745-Mile Solid-State Battery Breakthrough, Explained


I'll believe it when it's in a car.
 

mrfixitman

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Sorry, but I honestly stopped reading your posts back in that 1st Amendment violation thread you made. Before it got locked, I pointed out exactly what needed to happen before the masses in America would adopt EVs. Out of several points I brought up, you chose to only respond to one of them. And to be honest, you really didn't do a good job of it on that one point. So, that tells me that you have no intelligent rebuttal to what I brought up in that topic. And yes, you had plenty of time to respond before the topic was locked. That tells me everything I need to know.

Now you're just going round and around, repeating the same thing over and over again. Pretty much everyone is sick of you now. Even those who like EVs. You're not on my Ignore List. But I'll be skipping past your posts from now on.
Sorry you feel that way but I don't have any idea which post you are talking about. I thought I pretty well went through point by point on the Toyota battery breakthrough that's been going for 10 years among others in that post. I only have so much time in the day for commenting. I try to do it to dispel myths that are rampant here. Lots of FUD which I try to dispel with my experience mixed with items from the web which I believe are true. I am trying to be helpful in my way. I did share my 26650 battery discoveries in another forum.
 

LRJ88

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I'm sorry (not really but it sounds better) but i'm getting rather tired of the arguments stemming from "i want this, this works for me, so in the interest of bettering the environment i'm going to push this to the point of not reading what people have actually said". EVs aren't there yet to be viable for many reasons, chief among them being infrastructure, efficiency, cost, and the slave labour being used to produce the massive amounts of cells needed for them to work. I frankly do not care about specific cases where they do work when i live in a country where we've had people having to use other transportation during the winter due to EVs having dropped enough capacity that they can't make it to work and back on a charge.

If we were to instead focus on solutions there needs to be 4 main improvements to make it actually work:
Lowered cost to make it cheaper to get into the market and being able to change batteries without paying enough to cover for a new car.
Faster charging, at least up to 80% SAFELY from <20% within 10 minutes.
Improved infrastructure to make charging possible without messing up the whole grid.
Creating the cars out of renewable resources rather than having to do it via slave labour.
 

mrfixitman

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I'm sorry (not really but it sounds better) but i'm getting rather tired of the arguments stemming from "i want this, this works for me, so in the interest of bettering the environment i'm going to push this to the point of not reading what people have actually said". EVs aren't there yet to be viable for many reasons,
For a large part of the population EVs are viable.
chief among them being infrastructure,
Tesla has great infrastructure
efficiency,
I get130 mpge in my Tesla model three. Electricity costs me 19¢ per kwh. My car has a 50 kwh and goes 262 miles. That is $9.50. How much would it cost an Accord or Camry to do that distance?
Average cost of a new car in the USA is $48k. Both my Teslas cost less than that.
and the slave labour being used to produce the massive amounts of cells needed for them to work.
I see machines.
I frankly do not care about specific cases where they do work when i live in a country where we've had people having to use other transportation during the winter due to EVs having dropped enough capacity that they can't make it to work and back on a charge.
81% EV saturation in Norway. Which is colder than anywhere in this country.
If we were to instead focus on solutions there needs to be 4 main improvements to make it actually work:
Lowered cost to make it cheaper to get into the market and being able to change batteries without paying enough to cover for a new car.
Most modern EVs will not need battery replacement and the used pack will be used for grid storage.
Faster charging, at least up to 80% SAFELY from <20% within 10 minutes.
GAC has the technology.
Improved infrastructure to make charging possible without messing up the whole grid.
The current grid is fully capable.

Creating the cars out of renewable resources rather than having to do it via slave labour.
I am not qualified to refute that, but it sounds like FUD.
 

Toulouse42

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Mr. Ed was kind enough to explain what I did wrong. If you care about your grandson, you should take this seriously: https://www.healthday.com/health-news/mental-health/air-pollution-2659315554.html There might be unintended consequences to GM, Ford and Toyota. Cheap EVs are coming. Bankruptcy is a real danger if big auto doesn't step up. It's hard to turn a big ship and they are headed for the rocks because they can't make a profit. The Chinese and Tesla do.
Now you're talking about something that I do know, professionally. Are you sure that Tesla is making a profit? Are you really sure? How long have they been making a profit?

Cos, I looked at an analysis of the Tesla Financial Statements for 2019 and I saw accumulated losses of over 6 Billion dollars. Now in all fairness I didn't bother to go any further but they would have to be doing incredibly well to make up those losses. Tesla is publicly quoted so you can easily find them online.

You also keep repeating that Tesla make the best selling car in the world, many many times.

Whilst that is impressive, they sold 1,8 million cars in 2023. In 2021 it was half that.

Toyota sold over 10 million in 2023. Tesla is not even in the top 10.

I spoke recently about Data vs Information. You keep repeating Data but so far I am not better informed by your relentless contributions.

On this page of this thread, you have posted 10 times in replying to various individuals. Are you paid by the word?

Whilst you craft yet another reply, I'm going off to enjoy my day and my family.
 

mrfixitman

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Now you're talking about something that I do know, professionally. Are you sure that Tesla is making a profit? Are you really sure? How long have they been making a profit?

Cos, I looked at an analysis of the Tesla Financial Statements for 2019 and I saw accumulated losses of over 6 Billion dollars. Now in all fairness I didn't bother to go any further but they would have to be doing incredibly well to make up those losses. Tesla is publicly quoted so you can easily find them online.

You also keep repeating that Tesla make the best selling car in the world, many many times.

Whilst that is impressive, they sold 1,8 million cars in 2023. In 2021 it was half that.

Toyota sold over 10 million in 2023. Tesla is not even in the top 10.

I spoke recently about Data vs Information. You keep repeating Data but so far I am not better informed by your relentless contributions.

On this page of this thread, you have posted 10 times in replying to various individuals. Are you paid by the word?

Whilst you craft yet another reply, I'm going off to enjoy my day and my family.
Not only is the model Y the best selling "car" not just EV, it's that too of course, but for the time in this era an electric is the best selling car in the world. On top of that it is also one of the safest.
 

LRJ88

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For a large part of the population EVs are viable.
Based on what calculations, by what person/organisation? Or is it just a guesstimate?
Tesla has great infrastructure

Care to wager a bet on that? Tesla is able to dump out a lot of cars due to using the "go green!" think but it doesn't matter if they aren't treating their employees well, and that in turn affects all of their areas of work.
I get130 mpge in my Tesla model three. Electricity costs me 19¢ per kwh. My car has a 50 kwh and goes 262 miles. That is $9.50. How much would it cost an Accord or Camry to do that distance?
Efficiency not in cost, but how far you can go. Batteries are heavy and if you want to go even further you need to add an even heavier battery which in turn affects other parts negatively. Add cold to that and your total net distance sinks like a rock.
Average cost of a new car in the USA is $48k. Both my Teslas cost less than that.
Initial cost isn't the entire cost, considering how few authorised Tesla repair centers we have and how much they charge for issues which are sadly quite common you'll rack up a way larger cost compared to issues affecting a regular ICE.
I see machines.


You don't know the entire chain of producing an EV.
81% EV saturation in Norway. Which is colder than anywhere in this country.
No, 82% of new cars sold, due to making it prohobitively expensive to buy an ICE. That's not choosing, that's forcing, which even with their network of chargers still isn't enough to have an effective infrastructure. The claims made by state officials in this matter are claims made because politicians can't see more than their own entrails from having their head so far up their arses.

Most modern EVs will not need battery replacement and the used pack will be used for grid storage.
A battery for an EV runs on average 5-6 years, what do you suggest is done with the car after that?
GAC has the technology.

They have it, but they also require completely different charging stations and batteries used in their cars, they don't work with the EVs being sold here today with the regular cells.
The current grid is fully capable.

I'd like to get some numbers on how it's fully capable and where that extra power would be coming from without cutting off power to other utilities currently.
I am not qualified to refute that, but it sounds like FUD.
I refer back to the other point about slavery here, which regardless of what you say about the current technology it isn't renewable, it still requires massive amounts of new natural resources compared to being able to use existing resources .
 

bykfixer

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1) a car is only as safe at the idiot driving it.

2) CPF has this marvelous invention called "ignore".

3) EV mandates are not about saving the planet, they're about control and wealth.

Now I'm going to side with someone here about the big car makers. I have faith in the future for Toyota and Honda. Maybe even Hyundai. But most of the rest are stubborn and only think about the right now profit margin. Gotta have growth to keep those investors happy. Never mind you're plane is low on fuel and headed for a giant storm. Nope, gotta cut costs ya know. Unions demanding 50% raises because the CEO's make 8 figures..... the EV mandates are the iceburg and car makers are the Titanic running a slalom course through a mine field of iceburgs at full speed.

Trouble is, when their bubble bursts Uncle Sam will bail them out. Too many jobs at stake. The ripple effect of the big 3 in the US going under would be such a massive scale many communities across America would never recover.

Case in point, a big factory across the river from my town closed in the 80's. At first it didn't seem so bad. Yeah, the nearby mom and pop store closed, then a few restaraunts, big deal right? But in 10 years commerce in that once bussling community was gone. Gone. Dead. Whole sections of town were vacant. A big mall, gone. There's a Food Lion where there used to be a giant mall. Hotels, gone. Restaraunts, other factories including a big name soda maker. Million dollar homes vacant street after street. Etc etc. Wanna buy a Rolax watch or some H, yeah they got plenty of that now.

The gubment stepped in around 2012 and injected cash into urban renewal areas. All that led to was more subsidized housing. 'Cause, you know even drug dealers need a home.

I don't ignore the guy who hales from the Frisco Bay. He actually has some good points on occasion. I do however skim over the stale rhetoric like somebody trying to convine me Pepsi is better than Coke because these studies or those charts and graphs say so.
 
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mrfixitman

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Now you're talking about something that I do know, professionally. Are you sure that Tesla is making a profit? Are you really sure? How long have they been making a profit?

Cos, I looked at an analysis of the Tesla Financial Statements for 2019 and I saw accumulated losses of over 6 Billion dollars. Now in all fairness I didn't bother to go any further but they would have to be doing incredibly well to make up those losses. Tesla is publicly quoted so you can easily find them online.

You also keep repeating that Tesla make the best selling car in the world, many many times.

Whilst that is impressive, they sold 1,8 million cars in 2023. In 2021 it was half that.
That is an S curve. This year Tesla will sell over 2m cars.
Toyota sold over 10 million in 2023. Tesla is not even in the top 10.
People also ask


Is Toyota more profitable than Tesla again?


Over the last four quarters, Tesla (NASDAQ:TSLA) generated total revenue and earnings of $96 billion and $15 billion, respectively. Toyota's (NYSE:TM) revenue and earnings are roughly three times larger at $299 billion and $44 billion.Feb 14, 2024. Three times larger profit selling 10 times more cars. Seems Tesla is earning more profit per car.
I spoke recently about Data vs Information. You keep repeating Data but so far I am not better informed by your relentless contributions.

On this page of this thread, you have posted 10 times in replying to various individuals. Are you paid by the word?

Whilst you craft yet another reply, I'm going off to enjoy my day and my family.
 

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