True cost to run EV like paying $17.33 per gallon if not for $22 billion in government subsidies.

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fuyume

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As PT Barnum once said, "There's a sucker born every minute." Imagine actually believing that Ford is losing $70K on every EV it sells. This is a public, shareholder-owned company. Institutional shareholders would immediately force Ford to cease production if Ford wasn't making a substantial profit on each and every one, let alone taking any amount of loss, at all.

There will always be people who can't adapt to change. I honestly feel sorry for them, especially people who get old and refuse to embrace the future. There's nothing about age that inherently makes people fearful of the unknown. I'm 55, and I'm not afraid of EVs.

EVs are not, of course, a panacea, and although they may be demonstrably better for the environment than ICEVs, they are not by any means a *benefit* to the environment. In the end, it's not about what you fuel your vehicle with, it's about the fact that we spent an entire century building a society that revolves around the idea of ubiquitous high-speed personal mobility without ever once considering the actual consequences of that. It's not about *what* you drive, it's *that* you drive, at all.

As David Owen said in his book, "The Conundrum" (2012):

"It's usually said that coal is the worst of the fossil fuels…But oil is worse. The reason is that oil is the world's primary source of transportation fuels, and personal mobility underlies and exacerbates almost all the most tenacious environmental challenges, including the consumption of energy in other forms.

The critical environmental damage done by cars is not caused by the fuel that they themselves consume…The critical damage is caused by all the other consumption that driving fosters—consumption that would not occur on the same scale if drivers couldn't move around as easily as they do.

The major carbon-spewing energy drain in a sprawling American suburb isn't the car in the driveway; it's the driveway. That is, it's everything the car makes both possible and necessary: the oversized house, the three-bay garage, the manicured yard, the redundant utilities, the schools, the hospitals, the shopping malls, and all the other accoutrements of inefficient suburban living—none of which would exist on anything like the same scale if residents were less able to move around at will. Cars are consumption amplifiers; driving is the pump that enlarges the sprawl balloon."

The only clean energy is the energy you don't use. There is no such thing as "renewable energy". All forms of energy generation require the use of non-"renewable" resources.

The real problem is not what we use to fuel our mobility, it's that we have substituted the profligate consumption of energy resources and created a polluted world to substitute for better design choices that would have obviated the need to burn those resources and create that pollution in the first place, because we were so arrogant as to fail to see that our "freedom of the road" had real and lasting consequences.

And now that the hens have come home to roost, a substantial proportion of our population now regards the idea that their future lifestyle choices might be restricted by both environmental and economic realities as something akin to totalitarian communism.

It's demonstrably true that, while there will always be those who abhor population centers because they despise the very idea of living in close proximity to others (or are just misanthropic), most people want to live close to where they work, learn, shop, play, and enjoy cultural activities. Most people want to live in towns and cities, even considering the fact that in the US, motor vehicles are taken as a given. 81% of Americans live in an urbanized area or urban cluster.

The theoretical ability to travel in private boxes at highway speeds has destroyed our environment at every level, from the most urban areas to the most rural, and even what is left of wilderness on this planet. Our lives would look much, much different if we simply limited motor vehicle speeds to 25 mph. The biggest problem with cars is not what fuels them, it's the fact that they allow us to go much farther than we could without them, and that is the very definition of sprawl.

Without highway speeds, our lives would necessarily need to be conducted within much tighter radii, and we would need to invest much more heavily in intercity rail, much like we did in the early 20th Century, when cars didn't go fast and air travel simply wasn't a thing.

Humans have used boxes on wheels to move themselves and their goods for millennia. Boxes on wheels will always continue to exist in our society. But, before long, we are probably going to be using horse carts all over again, because human civilization simply isn't going to survive this century if we continue the Happy Motoring delusion.

I live in an urban cluster in Northern New England. There is an Amtrak station with a direct line to NYC, PHL, and DC within walking distance from my house. I have been car-free for over 2.5 years. I don't need a car. Most of my needs can be taken care of within a 5 mile radius. What I need is essentially a glorified enclosed golf cart, a low-speed vehicle to get me, my groceries, and occasionally my music gear and/or tools from one end of town to the other with protection in the case of inclement weather. Heating and air conditioning would be nice, but not actually totally necessary. And needless to say, with such needs, battery electric power would be more than enough. 25 mph gets me to the other end of town, about 4 miles away, in 10 minutes.

But, I cannot operate such a vehicle legally on the streets of my town, despite the fact that the speed limit everywhere in my town is 25 mph or less. There's a growing number of low speed "Neighborhood Electric Vehicles" (NEVs) out there.

I don't pay for a car loan, I don't pay for fuel for a car, I don't pay for car maintenance, I don't pay for car insurance, I don't pay for car registration, I don't pay for car parking or parking tickets. And that means I can invest that money into better things than a hole in the driveway that needs to be constantly filled by my time, labor, and money.

My ebike cost me about $1600 total, with all the accessories, and takes pennies to charge. It will take me at least 20 miles on a charge at 20 mph. It's just limited in how much I can carry on it, and is obviously not weather-protected.
 

vadimax

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These Chinese vehicles are a total crap so far. But if you value your life cheaper than dirt, well, then you are welcome.

Russians with major car manufacturers out of russia now started to buy Chinese vehicles. And first "surprises" start to pop out. You may search on YouTube "сломалась педаль газа на китайце" what translates to "an accelerator pedal broke off on Chinese". Watch the results.

Having rather cold winters in russia for the latest 30 thousand years accelerator pedals break off (cheap plastic). And I don't understand these people. They must thank god their accelerators break off when they just attempt to drive in the morning. They could easily lose their brakes with the pedal going off at some 50 mph.

Just one of the search results:

 

Monocrom

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And now that the hens have come home to roost, a substantial proportion of our population now regards the idea that their future lifestyle choices might be restricted by both environmental and economic realities as something akin to totalitarian communism.
What you refer to as a "lifestyle Choice," many of us correctly refer to as Freedom of Movement. The ability to go anywhere and do anything with no restrictions being imposed. As far as Communism goes, having been born into the former Soviet Union, restriction on Freedom of Movement was very much a real thing. I don't mean into places where citizens clearly wouldn't be allowed. I mean places where you'd think the government wouldn't care about. But they definitely did. And the armed guards at various checkpoints made that fact clear.

As far as vehicle restrictions go, there was the Lada for the masses. There were a couple of other vehicles later on. But if you wanted a car, you paid full-price for a Lada sedan, then got put onto a waiting-list that was 3 or 4 years long before you could take delivery of one. Plenty of YouTube videos out there on Soviet era Ladas. Remotely powerful engines? Oh hell no! Nothing that could outrun the vehicles imported into the nation for police officers to use. Sheet-metal? Nice and thin. Saves on production costs.... makes it easier for police officers and soldiers to shoot into the vehicle with their issued weapons, if a driver was stupid enough to try to run from them. Brakes, very basic. Driver tries to flee, they're likely to lock up when he hits a sharp corner. Even back then, the Lada was about 20 years behind the closest competitor for a Peoples' car in every single way, shape and form. That was done intentionally. Can't allow the masses to have anything too good.

Economic reality is that inflation is out of control because our American leaders are incompetent morons who would easily fail a High School Economics 101 class. Want to fix the economy, elect individuals whose fiancial acumen isn't on par with that of a 3 year-old child.

Enviornmental?.... Oh, you mean actual environmental issues or the made-up nonsense of the current hidden agenda pushing Climate Change movement which I went into a great deal of detail about, and debunked in a now deleted topic? Which one? Please be specific.
 

RWT1405

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There will always be people who can't adapt to change. I honestly feel sorry for them, especially people who get old and refuse to embrace the future. There's nothing about age that inherently makes people fearful of the unknown. I'm 55, and I'm not afraid of EVs.
I can only speak for myself, but I'm not afraid of EV's, and if they work for you, I'm happy for you.

I realize that what works for me, may not work for others.

I expect the same realization from them, about me and my needs/uses.

However, what I AM afraid of is Big Daddy Government telling me that I MUST purchase an EV, and only an EV.

Many don't seem to understand the difference.

And now that the hens have come home to roost, a substantial proportion of our population now regards the idea that their future lifestyle choices might be restricted by both environmental and economic realities as something akin to totalitarian communism.
When the Government "mandates" (FORCES me) to purchase an EV, and ONLY an EV, what do you call it?
 

vadimax

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I can only speak for myself, but I'm not afraid of EV's, and if they work for you, I'm happy for you.

I realize that what works for me, may not work for others.

I expect the same realization from them, about me and my needs/uses.

However, what I AM afraid of is Big Daddy Government telling me that I MUST purchase an EV, and only an EV.

Many don't seem to understand the difference.


When the Government "mandates" (FORCES me) to purchase an EV, and ONLY an EV, what do you call it?
 

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Kestrel

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I have an older friend who is borderline poor, living on Social Security plus a tiny pension. His backup plan is living in the truck camper he's finishing building. He resides in WA State, which plans to not permit registration of ICE vehicles starting 2035 ? Pretty difficult to live in an electric truck with a few thousand pounds in the bed. :-/

The only thing I can say is that WA will need to revise their planning at some point, or they are going to eventually have to deal with a few million unruly peasants with torches & pitchforks.
 

weekend warrior

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I have an older friend who is borderline poor, living on Social Security plus a tiny pension. His backup plan is living in the truck camper he's finishing building. He resides in WA State, which plans to not permit registration of ICE vehicles starting 2035 ? Pretty difficult to live in an electric truck with a few thousand pounds in the bed. :-/

The only thing I can say is that WA will need to revise their planning at some point, or they are going to eventually have to deal with a few million unruly peasants with torches & pitchforks.

A quick google search shows that you're completely wrong about almost everything you said.

The state plans to ban the sale of NEW internal combustion vehicles by 2035. You can still register and buy used ICE cars within the state, or register out of state cars. And they're not going to come to your house and take your ICE car. This comes on the heels of GM planning to cease production of ICE vehicles by 2035, and Ford investing some $50 billion into electric vehicles by 2026.

I don't know if you were intentionally lying but this is a real problem with this country. People spreading misinformation and completely skewing facts to make normal progressive legislation look scary and dangerous to normal middle class people.
 

alpg88

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People spreading misinformation and completely skewing facts to make normal progressive legislation look scary and dangerous to normal middle class people.
But they are, there is nothing normal about progressive legislations, it s an oxymoron, just look around not one of their legislation improve our lives. I don't know if you were intentionally lying but this is a real problem with this country. people are brainwashed to believe fails are wins.
 

Monocrom

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Banning ICE vehicles or banning the sale of new ICE vehicles is splitting hairs. Last I checked, America is supposed to be a republic; not a frickin' state central dictatorship. Who the hell are these miserable excuses for Governors to be telling the People what we can and can't buy after a certain year!? That is disgustingly Obscene! It is the very definition of corruption. Let the Market decide which new vehicles American citizens should buy. Not some pathetic psychological re-incarnation of the not-so-funny little man with deformed genitals and an Oliver hardy moustache who ruled Germany before 1946.
 

Kestrel

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Jeez, WW; what the hell did you think about that QUESTION MARK in my above post ?!?
My friend /in a neighboring state/ had told me that, so I posted it here as a query ???? Why don't you work on your reading comprehension for starters, instead of doing the standard frothing-at-the-mouth thing.

And anybody who accuses me of intentionally lying in this forum, doesn't have the first clue about CPF.
 
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bykfixer

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The hell with it, if I have to deal with people like that in an EV thread; just another addition to my "Ignore" group.

You are welcome to your utopias and I'll just pay attention to the threads in this forum that actually have merit.
I stopped watching it days ago until I saw you had posted. I'll go back to ignoring it for a few more days.
 

raggie33

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the old folks said they used to have to walk up hill to school both ways now we must find the hills that are down hill both ways . your welcome world i solved this problem
 

Toulouse42

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There will always be people who can't adapt to change. I honestly feel sorry for them, especially people who get old and refuse to embrace the future. There's nothing about age that inherently makes people fearful of the unknown. I'm 55, and I'm not afraid of EVs.
Fuyume - This statement of yours is the problem. When you say "embrace the future" you assume that the future that you see and approve of is the only one. There are in fact multiple potential futures which depend on what enough people chose to do or not do today and tomorrow. Some you will like and some you will not. I'm not afraid of EVs and I'm much older than you. I have spent my professional career embracing and driving change. BUT, I'm not an early adopter until I understand that the new technology will improve my life. I detest with a vengeance people who tell me what to do because they are convinced that they are right. On a variety of subjects, our "leaders" are incompetent beyond belief but that does not stop them mandating stuff that I disagree with.

I'll give you an example of a potential future that none of us will like. Right now, our leaders are "bigging up" war with Russia and discussing conscription. Your efforts might be better spent on speaking to your representatives and demanding that they tone down the rhetoric. This will not end well but it will sure as hell take your focus off EVs.
 
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Considering the subject of being an early adapter, I switched all the lightbulbs in my house to LEDs a few (4 maybe 5) years ago. None of those early Cree bulbs were worth a damn. They've been replaced over the last two years with great LED bulbs.

Sometimes it doesn't pay to be an early adapter.
 

bykfixer

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I was using CFL's in the 90's. Part to save money, part to help reduce electric demands but mostly because they didn't :poof: every 90 days.

When I moved from place to place I'd replace all bulbs in my new place with them. When I left they went with me. (Leaving the old bulbs in the fixures)
Some are still working in my ceiling fans to this day.
 
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