True cost to run EV like paying $17.33 per gallon if not for $22 billion in government subsidies.

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mrfixitman

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As PT Barnum once said, "There's a sucker born every minute." Imagine actually believing that Ford is losing $70K on every EV it sells. This is a public, shareholder-owned company. Institutional shareholders would immediately force Ford to cease production if Ford wasn't making a substantial profit on each and every one, let alone taking any amount of loss, at all.

There will always be people who can't adapt to change. I honestly feel sorry for them, especially people who get old and refuse to embrace the future. There's nothing about age that inherently makes people fearful of the unknown. I'm 55, and I'm not afraid of EVs.

EVs are not, of course, a panacea, and although they may be demonstrably better for the environment than ICEVs, they are not by any means a *benefit* to the environment. In the end, it's not about what you fuel your vehicle with, it's about the fact that we spent an entire century building a society that revolves around the idea of ubiquitous high-speed personal mobility without ever once considering the actual consequences of that. It's not about *what* you drive, it's *that* you drive, at all.

As David Owen said in his book, "The Conundrum" (2012):



The only clean energy is the energy you don't use. There is no such thing as "renewable energy". All forms of energy generation require the use of non-"renewable" resources.

The real problem is not what we use to fuel our mobility, it's that we have substituted the profligate consumption of energy resources and created a polluted world to substitute for better design choices that would have obviated the need to burn those resources and create that pollution in the first place, because we were so arrogant as to fail to see that our "freedom of the road" had real and lasting consequences.

And now that the hens have come home to roost, a substantial proportion of our population now regards the idea that their future lifestyle choices might be restricted by both environmental and economic realities as something akin to totalitarian communism.

It's demonstrably true that, while there will always be those who abhor population centers because they despise the very idea of living in close proximity to others (or are just misanthropic), most people want to live close to where they work, learn, shop, play, and enjoy cultural activities. Most people want to live in towns and cities, even considering the fact that in the US, motor vehicles are taken as a given. 81% of Americans live in an urbanized area or urban cluster.

The theoretical ability to travel in private boxes at highway speeds has destroyed our environment at every level, from the most urban areas to the most rural, and even what is left of wilderness on this planet. Our lives would look much, much different if we simply limited motor vehicle speeds to 25 mph. The biggest problem with cars is not what fuels them, it's the fact that they allow us to go much farther than we could without them, and that is the very definition of sprawl.

Without highway speeds, our lives would necessarily need to be conducted within much tighter radii, and we would need to invest much more heavily in intercity rail, much like we did in the early 20th Century, when cars didn't go fast and air travel simply wasn't a thing.

Humans have used boxes on wheels to move themselves and their goods for millennia. Boxes on wheels will always continue to exist in our society. But, before long, we are probably going to be using horse carts all over again, because human civilization simply isn't going to survive this century if we continue the Happy Motoring delusion.

I live in an urban cluster in Northern New England. There is an Amtrak station with a direct line to NYC, PHL, and DC within walking distance from my house. I have been car-free for over 2.5 years. I don't need a car. Most of my needs can be taken care of within a 5 mile radius. What I need is essentially a glorified enclosed golf cart, a low-speed vehicle to get me, my groceries, and occasionally my music gear and/or tools from one end of town to the other with protection in the case of inclement weather. Heating and air conditioning would be nice, but not actually totally necessary. And needless to say, with such needs, battery electric power would be more than enough. 25 mph gets me to the other end of town, about 4 miles away, in 10 minutes.

But, I cannot operate such a vehicle legally on the streets of my town, despite the fact that the speed limit everywhere in my town is 25 mph or less. There's a growing number of low speed "Neighborhood Electric Vehicles" (NEVs) out there.

I don't pay for a car loan, I don't pay for fuel for a car, I don't pay for car maintenance, I don't pay for car insurance, I don't pay for car registration, I don't pay for car parking or parking tickets. And that means I can invest that money into better things than a hole in the driveway that needs to be constantly filled by my time, labor, and money.

My ebike cost me about $1600 total, with all the accessories, and takes pennies to charge. It will take me at least 20 miles on a charge at 20 mph. It's just limited in how much I can carry on it, and is obviously not weather-protected.
Well said. However Ford is leveraging their truck losses against profits from ICE trucks. I still think electric is the only way to carry this society forward and still drive. I am a member of the Freeway philharmonic. Without a reliable vehicle it would be very hard to get to the next gig. Home stays are being used to cut down on driving. My main worry is air pollution amongst other pollutants. That is why electric wins. In my opinion bicycles should be registered and insured. I think it's obvious that modern electric bikes are mopeds.
 

mrfixitman

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Considering the subject of being an early adapter, I switched all the lightbulbs in my house to LEDs a few (4 maybe 5) years ago. None of those early Cree bulbs were worth a damn. They've been replaced over the last two years with great LED bulbs.

Sometimes it doesn't pay to be an early adapter.
I have encountered those bad led lightbulbs. What is recommended for long life?
 
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weekend warrior

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However, what I AM afraid of is Big Daddy Government telling me that I MUST purchase an EV, and only an EV.


When the Government "mandates" (FORCES me) to purchase an EV, and ONLY an EV, what do you call it?
Hyperbole? Fear mongering? Paranoia? Quite a few things I could call that statement.
 

vadimax

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The truth? Who's forcing you to buy an EV? Show me what legislation, what law, what government body is forcing you to buy an EV?
Do you live under a rock? Is it comfortable under there?

Now pretend you have never heard about plans to make EV sales that and that % of all new vehicle sales? HOW is it possible to meet that goal having in mind EVs are inferior to ICE vehicles without enforcing?
 

Toulouse42

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Hyperbole? Fear mongering? Paranoia? Quite a few things I could call that statement.
We've been through this a hundred times before. I'm pretty sure that it was earlier on this thread that I explained in some detail how the government already has in place all the powers it needs to force it to happen. You don't want to listen, that's not my problem.

Some of the things I outlined are already happening in my country. Not only that but our leaders are so emboldened that they are happy to discuss their ideas out loud. I agree with vadimax. You must be living on Mars, in a cave, with a paper bag over your head.

PS - You asked what law was being used. Well, over here its called the Zero Emission Mandate passed in September 2023. Your country will have something similar in place.
 
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LRJ88

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The truth? Who's forcing you to buy an EV? Show me what legislation, what law, what government body is forcing you to buy an EV?
Well, since you're so willing to not actually make sure that you know what you're talking about:


And this will be met by sanctions if the countries involved aren't meeting said goals, "if you don't do what we tell you we'll make sure you regret not doing it".
 

Toulouse42

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Thank you LRJ88. Given that all the western countries are talking the same talk and are all quoting the same date of 2035, it is safe to believe that the USA has the same thing in place. Are there any American contributors who can tell us what that is?
 

weekend warrior

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Well, since you're so willing to not actually make sure that you know what you're talking about:


And this will be met by sanctions if the countries involved aren't meeting said goals, "if you don't do what we tell you we'll make sure you regret not doing it".
Yeah I seen similar proposed laws in the US. It's a law requiring new cars built after 2035 to be zero CO2 emissions. It's not a ban on ICE vehicles, it's not the government forcing me to buy an EV. So as I said- it's hyperbolic and fearmongering to call it that. I'm sorry the very real challenge of climate change exists and it scares you that responsible governments are trying to slow it down. But luckily if you're so opposed there will be ICE vehicles to buy for a very long time still.
 
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Image.jpg
 

LRJ88

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Yeah I seen similar proposed laws in the US. It's a law requiring new cars built after 2035 to be zero CO2 emissions. It's not a ban on ICE vehicles, it's not the government forcing me to buy an EV. So as I said- it's hyperbolic and fearmongering to call it that. I'm sorry the very real challenge of climate change exists and it scares you that responsible governments are trying to slow it down. But luckily if you're so opposed there will be ICE vehicles to buy for a very long time still.
No new ICE cars sold, which means that the ICE cars already in circulation will be the only ones available to purchase in the first stage of this. How long can you keep a car rolling? Cars here suffer terribly from road conditions which means that you're less likely to be able to keep repairing your rust bucket past a certain point, if you even can repair them what with right to repair etc. The governments give not a single, solitary **** about the climate and the environment, they care about making it look good when they make decisions. The governments here are happy to burn coal to charge their EVs, and that's the same way so many people look at it because moving over to EV gets seen as some form of panacea.
 

weekend warrior

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No new ICE cars sold, which means that the ICE cars already in circulation will be the only ones available to purchase in the first stage of this. How long can you keep a car rolling? Cars here suffer terribly from road conditions which means that you're less likely to be able to keep repairing your rust bucket past a certain point, if you even can repair them what with right to repair etc. The governments give not a single, solitary **** about the climate and the environment, they care about making it look good when they make decisions. The governments here are happy to burn coal to charge their EVs, and that's the same way so many people look at it because moving over to EV gets seen as some form of panacea.
So I'm supposed to sit here and cry into my tear jar at the prospect that in 2045 I might not be able to keep up with the maintenance costs on my 2034 model ICE car? This is what we do here? And I'm sure 2 decades from now there will have been no improvements made to EV, or hydrogen, or e-fuel vehicles to make me want to buy one.

And over half of Germanys energy consumption comes from renewables. And it's only going up. The current year if you're not aware is 2024, not 1924. We don't just mindlessly burn coal anymore. But you're absolutely right that we still depend on and use fossil fuels to sustain the energy demands of the world. Big Gov' isn't just outright banning fossil fuels because they're not complete idiots.
 

Monocrom

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The truth? Who's forcing you to buy an EV? Show me what legislation, what law, what government body is forcing you to buy an EV?
Are you kidding me!? :crackup:
I might be wrong here. Let me grab my frickin' HUGE pair of Russian Military binocs that my Father gifted me when I was a helluva younger fellow, and let me just take a look.... Oh yes, there it is! Your post in this very same topic where you were splitting hairs about how no politician in power in America is actually trying to ban ICE vehicles by 2035. They're "only" banning the sale of new ICE vehicles by the year 2035. YOU said it yourself in this very same topic! Or, are we still splitting hairs. Shall we pretend that Hydrogen vehicles are plentiful and actually available to the masses? Shall we pretend that hybrid vehicles aren't a blatant variation of EVs? Shall we pretend that even one person in America, who isn't Amish, is going to trade in their ICE vehicle for a Horse & Buggy? Oh yeah! Plenty of other options when in 2035 (according to YOU) the sale of new ICE vehicles becomes banned.

You know I miss jtr1962. He and I got into some intense debates over the years on CPF. But there was always mutual respect. Reason being, he was open, honest, up-front, and intelligent. His posts were genuinely thought-provoking, even when I strongly disagreed with him. He very recently lost his Mother. So his break from CPF is absolutely understandable. I lost my Father back in 2017. I still have those binocs though. Former Soviet Union always good at making quality military gear. Everything else was garbage.

For your sake, take some good advice when you hear it. You're no jtr1962. All you're doing at this point is providing some very unintentional, though admittedly needed, comic relief to this thread. And while appreciated for improving the mood, you're not making yourself look good. You honestly aren't.
 
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