True cost to run EV like paying $17.33 per gallon if not for $22 billion in government subsidies.

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Monocrom

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That, is FUD. I call BS. Etc...Not going to watch FUD video but if you summarize I will listen.
See, this is why I called you out in my previous post.
Now you're resorting to the cheapest of the age-old debating tactics. Pretend a valid counter-point is silly, stupid, not even worth considering. Label it as such (in your case, "FUD"). And that way you don't really have to address it at all. The video speaks for itself. Doesn't require a detailed explanation. Quite frankly, you know it.

Truth is, it's a very effective and sleazy debating tactic. It works! Oh, but not if the person disagreeing with you knows about it and calls you out on it. Like I just did. Oops!

Yeah, that's the line. And, you just crossed it. You blatantly displayed your disingenuousness in front of everyone. Nice job. You don't want an open and honest debate. You want to hit people over the head with your sacred cow beliefs until they agree with you just to get you to stop, and hopefully focus on someone else. Thing is, that doesn't work with me. You weren't on my Ignore List before. But Welcome to it now. You're not worth replying to, and this is the last reply you'll get from me. Have a good one. :)
 

KITROBASKIN

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Inhalation injuries from Lithium-Ion Batteries was being discussed on the American Burn Associations - ABLS Instructors group (Advanced Burn Life Support, which I am an Instructor).

Most have no idea of the potential hazards presented by Lithium-Ion batteries.

The below info was presented during ABA - ABLS Instructor group discussion and provides a good overview of potential problems.
A lot of people do not differentiate between different lithium chemistries. It is a shame when the more dangerous types condemn the less dangerous, but if an LFP cell is pierced, bad things can happen in terms of toxic fumes.
 

mrfixitman

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21 second video of flaming hulk being dumped off the side of a highway. Does not prove EV's are the boogy man or invoke Fear/Doubt to make us abstain from the future. Life is dangerous. Let's be smart.
Thank you for summarizing the video which is FUD. Proves he was full of it. I saw it somewhere else. Teslas are being set on fire all over the world...not that I want to give any of these guys ideas...if you do cover your face. Lots of idiots have be caught on Tesla videos doing all kinds of vandalism. The facts for me are I have been driving OEM EVs for over a decade. Only had a couple of flat tires. 125k miles.
 

Monocrom

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21 second video of flaming hulk being dumped off the side of a highway. Does not prove EV's are the boogy man or invoke Fear/Doubt to make us abstain from the future. Life is dangerous. Let's be smart.
Exactly! Unfortunately there are individuals who swear that the danger simply doesn't exist, never existed in the first place. That's the thing I take issue with. If we pretend there is no danger, then no efforts will be made in the future to improve technology in order to greatly reduce or eliminate the danger.
 

bykfixer

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Leftists NEVER want a fair & honest debate, especially when they are dealing with fake facts, and they know they can't win. If it doesn't fit their narrative, it gets cancelled or rationalized away.

I could point to many examples, but I'll stay away from that area.
The term FUD comes to mind.

About 10 years ago, maybe more I used to debate my well meaning sister about things that now she has no comment over. Won't go over specfics but I used to tell her to stop listening to doom sayers and look at the facts. Time proved her being mad about stuff was a waste of a bunch of good years and worse, she'd been dooped.
 
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Monocrom

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Leftists NEVER want a fair & honest debate, especially when they are dealing with fake facts, and they know they can't win. If it doesn't fit their narrative, it gets cancelled or rationalized away.

I could point to many examples, but I'll stay away from that area.
My best friend of over 30 years is a Centrist. He's a HUGE advocate of EVs. But even he admitted that since the masses mostly live in apartment buildings, where the vast majority of those buildings have no designated or reserved parking spaces for the residents' vehicles, EVs are not the answer for them. Plus, add to that the fact that the outdoor charging infrastructure is pathetically inadequate today; EVs make no sense on a basic level in 2024 for most buyers.

Then you have other serious issues. No routine maintenance means no preventative maintenance that costs car owners less money over the long haul. Ridiculously obscene battery replacement prices after just a few years of ownership. Forcing smart EV owners to lease a new EV every 3 years, or get stuck with mid 5-figure battery replacement costs if they're crazy enough to keep one past the warranty period. Sure, a refurbished battery costs less. But still horribly expensive. And, few folks want a refurbished anything.

I mean, there aren't too many serious issues with EVs. But the handful that do exist are more than enough. Maybe after another 30 years of friendship, my best friend will be able to say "Ha! I told you so!"

(Though if I'm honest, he's already become forgetful. Tried to mention one time in the past I nearly humiliated myself. I had to remind him he was there, and he did humiliate himself in front of those good-looking girls back when we were both in High School. Came as a complete shock to him.)
 

mrfixitman

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My best friend of over 30 years is a Centrist. He's a HUGE advocate of EVs. But even he admitted that since the masses mostly live in apartment buildings, where the vast majority of those buildings have no designated or reserved parking spaces for the residents' vehicles, EVs are not the answer for them. Plus, add to that the fact that the outdoor charging infrastructure is pathetically inadequate today; EVs make no sense on a basic level in 2024 for most buyers.
A large majority (83 percent) of rental housing units in American metropolitan areas included some kind of parking on site. About 38 percent of rental units had garage parking, while 45 percent had surface or other non-garage parking spaces. In California renters have the right to charge.This California law allows an EV charger to be installed "within an owner's unit or in a designated parking space" or "at a parking space allocated for the lessee." This may also include a common area or a location specifically designated for use by a particular owner. If you add Plugshare and other sources at work, this only leaves a small part of the population without resources.
Then you have other serious issues.
I can't wait to hear.
No routine maintenance means no preventative maintenance that costs car owners less money over the long haul.
Yes EVs don't need it because they don't run from freezing to 4,500°F. When was the last time you replaced an electric motor in your washing machine? EVs will need: Wheel bearings, brake pads, washer fluid, air in the tires, wiper blades. No auto transmission service, no oil changes, no smog test and no tuneups. No:
  • Oxygen Sensors.
  • Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor.
  • Engine Oil Level Sensor.
  • Engine Oil Pressure Sensor.
  • Coolant Temperature Sensor.
  • Coolant Level Sensor.
  • Air Intake Temperature Sensor.
  • Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor. All these things run up to the boiling point. Again these wide temperature swings wear things out. The sensors in EVs run at low temperatures.
Ridiculously obscene battery replacement prices after just a few years of ownership. Forcing smart EV owners to lease a new EV every 3 years, or get stuck with mid 5-figure battery replacement costs if they're crazy enough to keep one past the warranty period. Sure, a refurbished battery costs less. But still horribly expensive. And, few folks want a refurbished anything.
A bit of FUD here. According to Tesla CEO Elon Musk, Tesla car batteries are supposed to last around 300,000 to 500,000 miles or about 1,500 times of charging and discharging.Oct 30, 2023 That means by the time you need new batteries you will have junked the car. Me personally. I would find a junkyard battery and keep going. Battery prices are coming down and will meet parity soon and eventually put EV cost below ICE. All I have imparted here is easily Googled or from personal experience from decades of EV repair, design or use. Not fear, uncertainty or doubt. Remember, EVs are just big flashlights with wheels and cargo space.
 
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mrfixitman

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Exactly! Unfortunately there are individuals who swear that the danger simply doesn't exist, never existed in the first place. That's the thing I take issue with. If we pretend there is no danger, then no efforts will be made in the future to improve technology in order to greatly reduce or eliminate the danger.
Look at the statistics. Hybrid-powered cars were involved in about 3,475 fires per every 100,000 sold. Gasoline-powered cars, about 1,530. Electric vehicles (EVs) saw just 25 fires per 100,000 sold.Jan 28, 2022 Accordingly to this, the danger is small. Appears fear is a factor here. Every time an EV burns it's news. ICE. Not so much. Clicks instead of facts.
 

Bimmerboy

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It's a waste of time quibbling about the tech. The only pertinent issue is the present EV market is being forced at the point of a gun. It's completely immoral. If one wants to fight against it, it's only in the realm of rights and morality where success can be won.
 

mrfixitman

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It's a waste of time quibbling about the tech. The only pertinent issue is the present EV market is being forced at the point of a gun. It's completely immoral. If one wants to fight against it, it's only in the realm of rights and morality where success can be won.
It's happening in 2035 because ICE spews poison. That is dangerous and immoral. Forced, because it is the only technical way to reach zero emissions. The only way ICE can reduce emissions is by cheating. Electric combined with renewable energy is as clean as you can get. If you have a better way, please share. Personally I am getting more solar and a battery.
 

mrfixitman

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Article dated March 5, 2024. Newsmax was talking about this last night. The climate freaks have been trying to bury this study since 2022.

That is the FUDDIEST of FUD. If you ever saw the tires on a Tesla, they are wide. All cars tires wear. There is virtually no brake dust with electric cars. So the extra marginal amount of tire dust is no where near the damage ICE do to the air.
 

mrfixitman

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Skier

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As PT Barnum once said, "There's a sucker born every minute." Imagine actually believing that Ford is losing $70K on every EV it sells. This is a public, shareholder-owned company. Institutional shareholders would immediately force Ford to cease production if Ford wasn't making a substantial profit on each and every one, let alone taking any amount of loss, at all.

There will always be people who can't adapt to change. I honestly feel sorry for them, especially people who get old and refuse to embrace the future. There's nothing about age that inherently makes people fearful of the unknown. I'm 55, and I'm not afraid of EVs.

EVs are not, of course, a panacea, and although they may be demonstrably better for the environment than ICEVs, they are not by any means a *benefit* to the environment. In the end, it's not about what you fuel your vehicle with, it's about the fact that we spent an entire century building a society that revolves around the idea of ubiquitous high-speed personal mobility without ever once considering the actual consequences of that. It's not about *what* you drive, it's *that* you drive, at all.

As David Owen said in his book, "The Conundrum" (2012):



The only clean energy is the energy you don't use. There is no such thing as "renewable energy". All forms of energy generation require the use of non-"renewable" resources.

The real problem is not what we use to fuel our mobility, it's that we have substituted the profligate consumption of energy resources and created a polluted world to substitute for better design choices that would have obviated the need to burn those resources and create that pollution in the first place, because we were so arrogant as to fail to see that our "freedom of the road" had real and lasting consequences.

And now that the hens have come home to roost, a substantial proportion of our population now regards the idea that their future lifestyle choices might be restricted by both environmental and economic realities as something akin to totalitarian communism.

It's demonstrably true that, while there will always be those who abhor population centers because they despise the very idea of living in close proximity to others (or are just misanthropic), most people want to live close to where they work, learn, shop, play, and enjoy cultural activities. Most people want to live in towns and cities, even considering the fact that in the US, motor vehicles are taken as a given. 81% of Americans live in an urbanized area or urban cluster.

The theoretical ability to travel in private boxes at highway speeds has destroyed our environment at every level, from the most urban areas to the most rural, and even what is left of wilderness on this planet. Our lives would look much, much different if we simply limited motor vehicle speeds to 25 mph. The biggest problem with cars is not what fuels them, it's the fact that they allow us to go much farther than we could without them, and that is the very definition of sprawl.

Without highway speeds, our lives would necessarily need to be conducted within much tighter radii, and we would need to invest much more heavily in intercity rail, much like we did in the early 20th Century, when cars didn't go fast and air travel simply wasn't a thing.

Humans have used boxes on wheels to move themselves and their goods for millennia. Boxes on wheels will always continue to exist in our society. But, before long, we are probably going to be using horse carts all over again, because human civilization simply isn't going to survive this century if we continue the Happy Motoring delusion.

I live in an urban cluster in Northern New England. There is an Amtrak station with a direct line to NYC, PHL, and DC within walking distance from my house. I have been car-free for over 2.5 years. I don't need a car. Most of my needs can be taken care of within a 5 mile radius. What I need is essentially a glorified enclosed golf cart, a low-speed vehicle to get me, my groceries, and occasionally my music gear and/or tools from one end of town to the other with protection in the case of inclement weather. Heating and air conditioning would be nice, but not actually totally necessary. And needless to say, with such needs, battery electric power would be more than enough. 25 mph gets me to the other end of town, about 4 miles away, in 10 minutes.

But, I cannot operate such a vehicle legally on the streets of my town, despite the fact that the speed limit everywhere in my town is 25 mph or less. There's a growing number of low speed "Neighborhood Electric Vehicles" (NEVs) out there.

I don't pay for a car loan, I don't pay for fuel for a car, I don't pay for car maintenance, I don't pay for car insurance, I don't pay for car registration, I don't pay for car parking or parking tickets. And that means I can invest that money into better things than a hole in the driveway that needs to be constantly filled by my time, labor, and money.

My ebike cost me about $1600 total, with all the accessories, and takes pennies to charge. It will take me at least 20 miles on a charge at 20 mph. It's just limited in how much I can carry on it, and is obviously not weather-protected.
If every gasoline vehicle on the planet was converted to EV, Total carbon footprint would not be effected. Cars do not use that much fuel in comparison to other modes of transportation. EV is a sensible platform for a very small subset of user, in very discreet weather conditions. Consider other fossil fuel consumers. Airplane, train, marine, ocean going ship...Consider other worldwide fossil fuel users that could care less about carbon footprint. Asia, India, Russia...
 

Monocrom

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+

Tesla shares are about $100 less per share than 2 years ago.
So, if you invested $10,000 in Tesla then, it would be worth around $6500 today.

underwater(n)
People are losing confidence.
Though if Musk doesn't screw up the new compact $25,000 EV coming out next year, or perhaps later on in this one; the company's stock value is likely to improve.
 

orbital

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People are losing confidence.
Though if Musk doesn't screw up the new compact $25,000 EV coming out next year, or perhaps later on in this one; the company's stock value is likely to improve.
+

stocks go up & down, not my best post ever ^
Very 'overvalued' still today at $561 billion
 
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