True cost to run EV like paying $17.33 per gallon if not for $22 billion in government subsidies.

rwolfenstein

Enlightened
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Mar 29, 2017
Messages
526
Have you all seen the test where an f150 lightning only got 80 miles while pulling a trailer?

Our fleet trucks are supposed to be going to lightnings starting next year. Boy I can't wait for that.
Funny story, the works department at a local college ended up buying one of these all electric vans thinking it would be great. Until someone drove it and didnt figure out the mileage in their head and it died a block away from their distribution center. It took a small generator and a plug in to get it up and running again. As they say, heres your sign.
 

jtr1962

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Nov 22, 2003
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Flushing, NY
I remember talking to a retired DOT worker who advised me that the reason roads and highways arent not improved to reduced congestion was to push more people to start riding mass transit. So if that thought process was from the late 80s into the 90s, I dont imagine that it has changed much.
Induced demand means building more roads doesn't reduce congestion. That's why it's not done. Also, if you're talking large cities where most of this congestion is, there isn't physically room to build more roads anyway, short of double or triple stacking them. That would be horrendously expensive.

The density of cities is only possible because of mass transit. Without it, you would have gridlock if even 10% of the population traveled by private auto. Private autos are the most space inefficient mode of transport bar none. One subway track can move up to 80,000 people per hour. One lane of freeway with average loading per vehicle might move up to about 2,500 people per hour. 40 lanes of freeway equals one subway track. That's not even getting into the added space to park all those cars.
 

Monocrom

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Aug 27, 2006
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NYC
As for congestion pricing, my prediction is the MTA will get the money, spend most of it on another round of retroactive pension increases, not service expansions, then come back, cup in hand, begging for more. Better public transit in this city starts with making the MTA more accountable. As they are now, they're basically a black hole which sucks up money with little to show for it.
My prediction is, the corrupt individuals running the MTA will shove most of it in their pockets; and then swear they need MORE money!
 

jross20

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May 1, 2020
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Georgia, USA
One thing I'd like to know, which hasn't been addressed to my knowledge, is this: If the government wants to pass laws that mandate (force) electric cars on us, then what about the millions of us that live in apartments and don't have personal garages?

How will the charging situation work? Is someone going to install a charging station for each parking space? Who pays for that?

What about security against vandalism, since the stations will be out in the open all night?

What's going to stop some random ******* from walking through the parking lot at 2am and unplugging a dozen cars, leaving people unable to go to work that later that morning?

If you have an assigned charger for billing purposes, what stops someone from hooking up their vehicle to your charger while you're at work, sticking you with extra costs?

----

So far I just hear a lot of fluffy handwaving talk about transitioning to electric vehicles, without any actual clear-eyed, cold rational discussion about the issues involved in implementing EVs on a large scale in the US.

I guess it's not surprising. I also saw recently that the gov wants to start building wind farm turbines in the Gulf of Mexico, apparently oblivious to the fact that hurricanes come through there on a fairly regular basis! Those storms are bad enough for the oil platforms out there; I imagine those 200 ft diameter wind turbine blades won't fair nearly as well against hurricane force winds!

haha, you think us poor peasant will have cars? Those will be for rich people.
 

jross20

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May 1, 2020
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Georgia, USA
How are we going to sustain the lithium production needed for EV batteries? The same mining that gets us our coal for power that everyone hates is how you get lithium/kobalt/other components. And it is DIRTY.

I hope technology gets better. It's just a bad deal right now.

We don't. lmao
 

Monocrom

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NYC
Moving elsewhere could solve that.
Sadly, family obligations keep me here in this City-sized lunatic asylum. Otherwise I'd happily move to Ohio to live with my best friend of 35 years. Cleveland is smaller than NYC. But has impressive attractions. They're just packed in tighter compared to NYC. There's also Columbus which is surprisingly nice. If I want to feel like I'm back in NYC, there's Cincinnati. Where the locals have the same obnoxious attitude all too common here.

Ohio is technically part of the Mid-West so you generally get the benefits of that region. I can live with the occasional Life-threatening weather alerts. Plus, I don't have a desire for Meth so no worries there.
 

newts

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Aug 11, 2023
Messages
29
Location
Nashua Newts Hampshire USA
Quite frankly, sick and tired of the City's not-so-secret war against cars and drivers. That whole congestion pricing B.S. is not the first shot fired. Not even close.
A lot of people are getting tired of the war against people by the oil and car companies. Pedestrian deaths in the US have been increasing to a 30 year high. More than half the real estate in cities is taken up by parking. Our foreign policy and military spending is built around oil but I never see that cost factored into the cost per mile for oil powered transportation.
 

newts

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Aug 11, 2023
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29
Location
Nashua Newts Hampshire USA
It depends upon the chemistry. Sodium-ion and iron-air are both much closer to a battery where the sourcing is far less destructive.
Also, as we learn to recycle batteries, it'll basically be a mine once thing. Fossil fuels are use once and throw away, except for when they're used as feedstocks for stuff like plastics.

This is an interesting development which might help the cause of hydrogen:

What is white hydrogen?

We should ditch our lithium powered flashlights and go back to clean renewable whale oil lamps
 

letschat7

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 7, 2022
Messages
1,994
Location
West Virginia, North America
Plus, I don't have a desire for Meth so no worries there.
That and Opium are a real issue here. One of my friends that I grew up with got addicted to methamphetamines and turned to a life of crime. At some point he started doing home invasions and was trying to rob a mother at gun point. She wouldn't give up her purse so he beat her in front of her child. All to feed his addiction. I think they should take the addicts and burn them to death in cages but instead the police keep them on the streets even though they have no usable skills, rob the working class, and drain limited resources.
 

jtr1962

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Joined
Nov 22, 2003
Messages
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Location
Flushing, NY
A lot of people are getting tired of the war against people by the oil and car companies. Pedestrian deaths in the US have been increasing to a 30 year high. More than half the real estate in cities is taken up by parking. Our foreign policy and military spending is built around oil but I never see that cost factored into the cost per mile for oil powered transportation.
Yes, exactly. Oil-based transportation has a load of externalities not charged to the end user. We all still pay for them one way or another. Some studies I've read put the total cost as high as $10 per gallon.

The pedestrian deaths have been going up thanks to the popularity of SUVs and pickups. The blunt front ends cause far more injury at any given collision speed. Their height and poorer visibility means many drivers don't even see pedestrians in the first place. Besides that, these huge vehicles make electrification much harder. The stress on the grid, and use of lithium are valid points people bring up. However, if we went from SUVs/pickups to highly aerodynamic sedans the size of battery needed for any given range goes down by a factor of 3 to 5. That's 1/5 to 1/3 the lithium, 1/5 to 1/3 as much electricity to charge the battery.

Overall, 40K to 50K die annually on the roads. If this were any other mode of transport, the NTSB would shut it down until it could be made safe. Can you imagine the reaction if 40,000 people a year died in plane crashes? Yet we brush it off as just a side effect of how we get around. Auto dependency was and is a huge mistake we'll spend decades fixing.
 

alpg88

Flashlight Enthusiast
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Apr 19, 2005
Messages
5,209
Honda accord weights 3400lb tesla S 4700lb.
Honda passport 4200lb, tesla x 5300lb. will GWB or VNB hold up when full of cars, both ways (pretty regular occurrence, or a VNB when both levels stay in traffic? we already had 1 multilevel parking collapse in nyc, extra weight of Tesla's was blamed, Cuz tesla pretty much makes 90% or more of all electric cars at least in nyc.
 

bigburly912

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Aug 12, 2015
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Virginia
Honda accord weights 3400lb tesla S 4700lb.
Honda passport 4200lb, tesla x 5300lb. will GWB or VNB hold up when full of cars, both ways (pretty regular occurrence, or a VNB when both levels stay in traffic? we already had 1 multilevel parking collapse in nyc, extra weight of Tesla's was blamed, Cuz tesla pretty much makes 90% or more of all electric cars at least in nyc.
You should see the electric line trucks. They are insane heavy
 

jtr1962

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Nov 22, 2003
Messages
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Flushing, NY
Honda accord weights 3400lb tesla S 4700lb.
Honda passport 4200lb, tesla x 5300lb. will GWB or VNB hold up when full of cars, both ways (pretty regular occurrence, or a VNB when both levels stay in traffic? we already had 1 multilevel parking collapse in nyc, extra weight of Tesla's was blamed, Cuz tesla pretty much makes 90% or more of all electric cars at least in nyc.
Honestly, if those weight differences cause a structure to fail, then it was marginal to start with. Most good engineers design structures to handle at least 2 or 3 times the maximum load they'll ever see in real life. I think the live load factored into the design of the GWB was 8,000 lbs per foot. Per lane, that's 1,000 lbs per foot. There's a huge safety margin, even with bumper to bumper Teslas.
 

alpg88

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
5,209
Is that static load?

Entire auto industry world wide, works hard to lower weight of cars, fuel economy is one thing, but weight plays huge role in safety, stopping distance, amount of force during collision... but with EV they seem neglect it.
 
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jtr1962

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Nov 22, 2003
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7,502
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Flushing, NY
Is that static load?
Live load. Not sure of the figure for static load but keep in mind "worst case" for bridges is actually a crowd of pedestrians crossing. Think how many people can stand in the space one car takes up in a regular 11 foot wide lane. Maybe 4 or 5 across and at least 10 or 12 deep. Easily 50 people, if not more. If they average 150 pounds each, that's 7,500 pounds. When walking live load is much higher than static load. For vehicles there's not much difference between the two.
Entire auto industry world wide, works hard to lower weight of cars, fuel economy is one thing, but weight plays huge role in safety, stopping distance, amount of force during collision... but with EV they seem neglect it.
They don't neglect it. Unfortunately, batteries weigh what they weigh, and the market demands a certain amount of range. I think we're at roughly 200 Wh/kg at the pack level for EV batteries. The average EV uses about 350 Wh per mile. So each additional mile of range adds around 1.75 kg (a little under 4 pounds) to the weight.

Hopefully when more energy dense batteries become available we'll opt to keep the range the same, but use the better battery to lighten the weight, instead of increasing the range.

As I already mentioned elsewhere we can get "free" range just by having better aerodynamics. That would also allow for smaller batteries.
 
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jabe1

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Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
3,063
Location
Cleveland,Oh
Look at what the f150 lightning or the ludicrous hummer EV weigh.

We could make a good dent in the air/noise pollution areas by getting rid of gasoline powered lawn equipment.
 

alpg88

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
5,209
why stop there, lets get rid of cargo ships, planes, heavy construction equipment, one bulldozer makes more pollution a day than a Honda accord a year. and power plants that run on gas, ban them too, oh wait, how are we gonna charge electric lawn movers, lol.
 

alpg88

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Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
5,209
Live load. Not sure of the figure for static load but keep in mind "worst case" for bridges is actually a crowd of pedestrians crossing. Think how many people can stand in the space one car takes up in a regular 11 foot wide lane. Maybe 4 or 5 across and at least 10 or 12 deep. Easily 50 people, if not more. If they average 150 pounds each, that's 7,500 pounds. When walking live load is much higher than static load. For vehicles there's not much difference between the two.
True but people walking that dense is not happening, even when we walked over Manhattan bridge on 9/11 we were not that close to each other, was not a dense crowd at all
 

idleprocess

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Feb 29, 2004
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decamped
We could make a good dent in the air/noise pollution areas by getting rid of gasoline powered lawn equipment.
I would not shed a tear if 2-stroke engines were phased out for lawn maintenance operations in the city. Quite the opposite in fact.
 
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