Ultimate 12P (9P + A19) Setup!

[wrathothebunny]

Ok, this is just about the most ultimate combination of size, runtime, and lumen output I know of for tactical use in a home defence environment. And that is the Surefire 9P + A19 Extender flashlight I own fitted with my just purchased new 320 Bulb Lumen (210 Surefire Lumens) 12V ultra high-pressure (8 atmospheric) D26 Reflector sized lamp assembly from Lumens Factory (www.lumensfactory.com). This provides me with 60 minutes of runtime (draws only 1.24 Amps) off of 4XCR123a batteries outputting about 210 SF lumens out the torch end of this flashlight. It has very similar characteristics as the new ultra high-pressure G&P G120s (also own in it's Digilight incarnation), but with a broader hotspot and excellent beam characteristics gradiating from hot spot center to flood periphery. My lumens factory fitted surefire "12P" combo stays cool, draws only 1.25 amps, runs for 1 hour, and outputs about a P91 equivalent in total lumens (though more focused). For home defense, it would practically blind an intruder with its generously large and bright hot spot, while providing ample flood to illuminate the periphery. It won't get hot in the hand causing sweat and thus lessening the grip on the flashlight in a high-stress situation, and the light is compact and light enough to hold comfortably in addition to wielding a weapon in the other hand (Harries Technique). It would provide instant target identification thus minimizing non-essential application of lethal force, while rendering the target momentarily, visually stunned (unless they're on meth**correction - PCP**).

 

[mdocod]

Welcome to CPF!

Too bad such a lamp won't be made permanently available. Though, I think more and more people are switching to li-ion setups, so 12V lamps aren't in high demand. technically, the P91 is still brighter, but the longer runtime of the 12V lamp makes it pretty useful. I think you'll find that a G120 can be adjusted to give a similar beam. (the G&P lamps unscrew from the reflectors easily) so if the beam doesn't look good, it might just need to be adjusted.


http://www.candlepowerforums.com/Rules.html <--click

please read rule #7

 

[wrathothebunny]

Sorry about the repost, I just thought this thread ought to be in the incandescent forum rather than the general forum, where I originally posted. I apologize, I'm a new member here, though a long time reader, so I guess I'm just learning the posting rules. In any case, I never understood the fascination with rechargeables, at least for owners who use flashlights for home defense. With rechargeables, your risk of flashing the lamp assembly goes up dramatically, as does the risk that it won't light on the first click. Another risk is that rechargeable batteries slowly drain current over time, just sitting in your drawer, so when you go to use your flashlight, if you haven't charged it anytime recently, it might not have a whole lot of juice. For me, I use my SureFire setup for things that go bump in the night, and for that purpose, I need it to go to full bright, the first time, every time, no matter how long it's been sitting in my bedroom drawer. Now, if I was a law enforcement officer and I was going through a set or two of lithiums a week, then sure, I could see the urgent need for rechargeables. I don't know how many law enforcement guys we have in this forum, I'm sure a few, but I can't imagine that they make up the majority. So for you non law enforcement types, why the rechargeables for a defense flashlight?

 

[mdocod]

With rechargeables, your risk of flashing the lamp assembly goes up dramatically....

CR123 primary cells hold nearly ~2.9V when fresh out of the package for the first few seconds of usage on a typical lamp load (~1.2A). a 9V bulb sees ~8.7V for a few seconds before the cells settle down to their sag of about 2.5V each. Rechargeable li-ion cells will never exceed 4.2V if charged properly, meaning that after initial sag, about 8.2V is about as much as any bulb would EVER see on a pair of li-ion cells. The chances for instaflash are lower in most cases when running li-ion cells. As the battery voltage is more steady.

...as does the risk that it won't light on the first click.

There are a large number of modern cells that are specifically designed with the startup current requirements of incandecent lamps in mind. Pila brand, Wolf-Eyes brand, and AW brand protected cells will all light up powerful lamps on th first try. It's only a risk factor to those who buy cheap cells that are not intended for these applications.

Another risk is that rechargeable batteries slowly drain current over time, just sitting in your drawer, so when you go to use your flashlight, if you haven't charged it anytime recently, it might not have a whole lot of juice.

That is a common problem with NiCD, NIMH, LeadAcid, etc etc, but Li-Ion suffers from very little self discharge. in most cases, expect 80% or more capacity after a year. In some cases, 90%+.

So for you non law enforcement types, why the rechargeables for a defense flashlight?

We are using tactical flashlights for non-tactical situations. just because it's tactical, doesn't mean you have to use it *only* for bumps in the night. I own 5 flashlights that would be considered "tactical" by design, all with li-ion rechargable cells, and I'm a pizza delivery driver, lol. I use them for everything from night walks, to identifying addresses, to anything where some light would be useful. Like looking for a pan in a cubbord.. I don't *need* tactical output for everything, but it just so happens that it fits in my pocket, so there it is. So it gets used a lot.

The other issue, is that flashaholics like to PLAY with their flashlights, lol. So rechargable is very important for guilt free play-time. I know you would have had to use at least 10 minutes of runtime on your 4 primary cells to formulate all your opinions of your new setup, that's a $1.20 worth of CR123 in that configuration.

 

[wrathothebunny]

I actually swap 2 sets of batteries in my setup, one fresh set that stays in my SureFire in case of emergencies, and one used set that I swap in any time I want to "play" with my setup The info you provided concerning rechargeables is very interesting though. My own experience with my Lithium Ion devices suggests much higher self-discharge rates, but if what you say is true, then I suppose technology has advanced considerably since I last checked. In any case, I can definately see a use for rechargeables in my Fenix P3D CE more than anything. My SureFire is really an emergency only tool, more than it is a toy for me, and I try to keep it in an always ready condition. I doubt I would go through more than a set of CR123s more than once every 3 years or so, if that. My Fenix, however, is another matter.

 

[mdocod]

Only devises I can think of that would create the illusion of self-discharge are devises with some parasitic drain...

but anyways. the primaries are great for your intended purpose. Just wait though... you'll be itching to play with it more, lol.

 

[Mark@LF]

wrathothebunny,

If you ever want to play with rechargeables, you can try buying 3 x RCR123a from AW to try on the 12V lamp that you have purchased from us. I have tried it and it works with no problems.

Thanks for the great comments.

Mark

 

[wrathothebunny]

In terms of running rechargeables, it is the initial voltage surge that I am mostly concerned about. My LumensFactory bulb is marketed as a 12V bulb, but it is really designed for 9.6 volts due to voltage sag. 4 rechargeable 123s could produce (4X4.2V) a 16.8 volt initial surge ***correction, 3 RCR123s would be the appropriate configuration***, whereas 4 primararies would likely only produce a 12V initial surge. Even if the primaries and rechargeables level off to about the same voltage level after the first few seconds, it has been well documented that initial voltage surges can take a heavy toll on the filimant of the lamp assembly. It likely wouldn't flash the first time, or even the 50th time, but it will weaken the filament, therefore leading to reduced longevity of the bulb, as well as increasing the chances that one of these times the bulb may flash - and I would really rather not have one of those times be the one time that I really need it.

 

[wrathothebunny]

"If you ever want to play with rechargeables, you can try buying 3 x RCR123a from AW to try on the 12V lamp that you have purchased from us."

I checked on these RCR123as from AW, and it looks like the operating and even initial surge volts would be ok, but at 750mAH, it looks like I would only get about 30 minutes of runtime.

 

[Mark@LF]

You are very correct about the point that it will weaken the filament. I was only suggesting that it would be okay if you want to try it out. But of course it is always better to stick with primaries on a 12V lamp.

Until next time, enjoy your lamp.

 

[wrathothebunny]

In terms of running on rechargeables, it looks like 2X17670 with either a P91 or an EO-9 would be the way to go (initial voltage surge of 8.4V followed by 7.4 normal operating voltage). It also looks like runtime would be slightly longer than if running off of 3 CR123s. I think I remember hearing somewhere though that a P91 is litterally a wall of light off of 17670s, maybe that's due to surefire designing this ultra-high-wattage bulb at an opperating voltage of something around 6.6 volts due to extreme voltage sag, while the 2 17670s would likely maintain a voltage of around 7.2 combined - effectively overvolting the P91. As cool as this might be, I wonder what the effective bulb life is for a P91 in this configuration. Still, I don't really see going rechargeable until a high-wattage 9V LED droppin becomes available. The new Crees and Seols are a step in the right direction, but until they get to about 300 lumens at the emitter (220 out the front) I don't really see changing my current configuration. I will, however, definately consider running my Fenix P3D off of 2 RCR123s.

 

[mdocod]

you're right on track with the explanation of the P91 on rechargeable... Keep in mind, the same thing applies to the EO-9 when driven by 2xli-ion, but that's fine, because there's plenty of overhead in the design, and it appears that the lamps are being rated pretty conservatively as far as life goes. The P91 runs about 250 torch lumens @ ~6.7V on primaries, the 17670s drive it at about 7.5V when fresh, the result is about 370 torch lumen. Life is about approx 12-20 hours like this.

The new Crees and Seols are a step in the right direction, but until they get to about 300 lumen's at the emitter (220 out the front)

LEDs don't suffer the same loss when converting for torch lumen's because they emit light on a "half-sphere" output pattern, so there isn't a loss of lumen's through the hole in the bottom of the reflector. So 300 emitter lumen's would be about 260 torch lumen's, depending on reflector surface quality and lens transparency.

 

[wrathothebunny]

I've been thinking this whole rechargeable thing over, as I am currently modding my bike light with a Cree XR-E drop-in lamp assembly and 2 17670s as voltage sources (I chose this size purely for compatibility with my SureFire). Anyway, I was thinking of the sort of utility I might get from running rechargeables on my SureFire when I started thinking of heat issues. My current 12V setup on primaries runs at a very cool temp, but should I go with high amp 9V bulbs, the heat can really crank up. I guess I would consider pairing an EO-9 or a P-91 with the 2 17670s, but I understand that both crank out considerable heat, so much so that running longer than 10 or 15 minutes continuous would make holding the torch rather uncomfortable. Now, I could go with a lower wattage bulb, but then wouldn't I just be better served with my Fenix P3D that cranks 130 lumens out the front? It really seems to me that a lot of members on this forum are running setups that are highly impractical in most situations. I want each and every flashlight I own to be able to stay turned on and comfortable in the hand should I need it to for longer than a "burst." It must be some sort of light fetish or something - seeing how much light can be squeezed out of a given container. I don't really see the utility in it. A specialty flashlight kept for emergencies such as power outages, bump-in-the-night intruder scares, and searching for that wedding ring or whatever that gets lost in the yard at night shouldn't need to run on rechargeables, as it will only need using every once in a great while. A commonly used light can run on rechargeables, but such a commonly used light ought to stay comfortably cool in the hand - thus why run an EO-9 or a P-91, and if running less, than why not simply run a Fenix P3D on 2 rechargeable RCR123s? I think that for 95% of non law enforcement types, 2 flashlights ought to be all you really need - one high powered specialty flashlight, and one moderately-high powered all-purpose flashlight. Run primaries in the former, and rechargeables in the latter.

 

[mdocod]

The 12V lamp you are running now from LF on 4 primaries is about 11-13W worth of light. If it stays cool enough for you, then just stick to something in the same range as far as WATTS go. It's not current alone that decides how much heat a lamp will make.

on a pair of 17670s, a LF HO-9 will be about the same brightness as the configuration you have now (~12W), and will run for about an hour, and will make about the same amount of heat.


So it looks like the solution is simple, HO-9, same output/runtime/heat you have now, but rechargable. hehe. enjoy your new addiction! by the end of the week, you'll have lamps and cells coming from all over the place, lol.

I'm the type that likes incandecent light enough to use lights that aren't any brighter than a new Cree light, and certainly don't run anywhere near as long, just for the fact that they are incan. Works better with my eyes in lots of situations.

 

[wrathothebunny]

So it looks like the solution is simple, HO-9...

I can't say that I'm not tempted to go with an HO-9, but my rational side continues to remind me that it in no way furthers my goals in terms of the intended utility of the flashlight. As an emergency light, functionality is given the utmost weight - and replacing batteries should not be a significant issue unless the flashlight is used beyond what it was originally intended for.

...same output/runtime/heat you have now, but rechargable.

Now, if there was some lumen gain and the remaining functionality decreased only slightly, then I could perhaps justify the switch. However, net lumens would stay the same with an HO-9, and runtime would decrease to 50 minutes from the 60 minutes provided by SureFire primaries (I do not want to bore out my SureFire, so I'd be using 2x17670s). I also have a suspicion that the HO-9 would derate faster than the 12V lamp. Beyond that, the hot-spot and flood would slightly decrease as smaller voltages go hand in hand with smaller filaments (LumensFactory explains this on their site); a 12V filament is longer than a 9V filament, all things being equal, and a longer filament corresponds to a bigger hotspot. Efficiency would slightly drop as well (again, see LumenFactory's website were they indicate that higher voltages correspond to higher lumens per watt), which would correspond to a slightly higher generation of heat.

All of this doesn't add up to much, but the reality remains that the beam comming from LumenFactory's 12V, 12 watt lamp will be just slightly better and last 20% longer that the beam comming from LumenFactory's 9V, 12 watt HO-9. The only reason that I would go for this would be to save on batteries, and the only reason I would want to save on batteries is if I was using my flashlight in more instances than just emergencies (more frequent use would of course use up the life of the bulb thus raising the possibility of it failing during an emergency). The only reason I can think of using this flashlight beyond emergencies is if I was playing with it in the backyard at night to admire the beam.

enjoy your new addiction!

Thus, I would need to develop and then nurture a light fetish to justify switching to rechargeables. As tempting as this is, I just don't see myself, or want to see myself crossing that line. In any case, my Fenix P3D is just a little brighter than is appropriate for most tasks on its turbo setting, so I'll probably keep that as my "duty" light and the SureFire will sit in the drawer for emergencies. It will probably go in the gun-safe with the Glock 45 ACP I'm planning on getting at some point for home defense. After having considered all of the valuable input I have received, I still have to conclude that the "12P" setup I currently have configured matches the highest net functionality in its class (its class being compact, bright, good beam quality, cool in the hand, long running, highly reliable, low maintenance, indoor home defense), and I just can't bring myself to step down from that, if only just slightly. Though I am sticking with primaries for now, I do concede that it is likely that at some future point I will switch to rechargeables in my SureFire "12P," but only when doing so raises the net functionality of the flashlight.

***I am reminded of a childhood tale I had read as a boy. It told the story of an impoverished family that lived by the sea. Their young son fell ill, and they could not afford to hire a doctor for his treatment. They prayed to their God, asking for a miracle - the next day, the father fished the sea as usual, but came up with a miracle - a large oyster that housed a massive, beautiful pearl. Though the parents originally were ecstatic that they could now save their son with the money they would surely get for the pearl, their tale took a turn for the worse when they looked more and more to the value of the pearl - thus losing sight of what they really wanted. What I really wanted was something that would help me and my family stay safe - I don't want to loose sight of that and focus instead on the "pearl."***

 

[Mark@LF]

I like the story, I remember when I was small I was told a story similar to theis one.

Oh, I am sorry to tell you guys that the 12V D26 Sample Run lamp is sold out now.
Maybe in the future we might make an improved production version of these.

Thanks for the support.

Mark

 

[Tessaiga]

Hey Mark, I ordered one from you as well.. How bright do these get on 2 X AW RCR123A?? is this a recommended setup?

 

[Mark@LF]

Tessaiga,

It would be very dim when you used 2 X AW RCR123A, this is definately NOT a recommended setup. The lamp is a 12V, 2 x RCR is 7.2-7.4V.

Try using 3 X AW RCR123A as a setup, it should perform roughly the same or a little brighter then when you use primaries. The trade off is a shorter total average life.

Thanks

Mark

 

[mdocod]

Hello Wrathofthebunny!

Great story, good points.

 

[winston]

while rendering the target momentarily, visually stunned (unless they're on meth).

:tsk: I hate to see such blatant lies and misinformation tarnish a forum like CPF: a forum that is renowned for the extensive peer-review process applied to any new theory or methodology introduced. Meth users hate bright light! That's a big part of the fun of catching ecstasy dealers at my work. :naughty:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/u11767x505l76787/

http://www.breathtest.wsp.wa.gov/SupportDocs\Studies_&_Articles\Downside of Methamphetamine.pdf