Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

aimxplode

Enlightened
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
371
Location
California
I use 14500 in my light. I'm trying to figure out what daily or weekly procedure people use keep the voltage from dropping too low (because testing often seems like a chore) using unprotected cells, (any type).

Do you have to get out the voltmeter every so often and test it or maybe do some people get a feel when to pull the battery recharge it before it drops too low..

Seems like one slip up could ruin an expensive cell.

Use a protected cell so you won't destroy the cell if you forget and run it down too low. I just test mine whenever I feel I've used it alot.
 

jirik_cz

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
1,605
Location
europe
4.2V = 100%
4.1V = about 90%
4.0V = about 80%
3.9V = about 60%
3.8V = about 40%
3.7V = about 20%
3.6V = empty
<3.5V = over-discharged

This is not correct for new AW 2900mAh and AW 3100mAh cells. Or any other Panasonic NCR18650 based cells. They still have around 40% of capacity left at 3.6V OCV.
 

alpg88

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
3,949
If someone did buy a unprotected Li-ion battery's and has a light without a low voltage cut off, what would keep the batteries from discharging too low and ruining the cells? Do you just have to guess when to recharge?
basicly nothing stops from killing them by overdischarge, i use 6 unprotected 3s2p in inc light, i can see when bulb is getting dim and recharge needed, but with leds you often can't see when you need to recharge.
 

aimxplode

Enlightened
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
371
Location
California
This is not correct for new AW 2900mAh and AW 3100mAh cells. Or any other Panasonic NCR18650 based cells. They still have around 40% of capacity left at 3.6V OCV.

Hmm, interesting. I'm using Eagletac 3100mAh cells, which use the NCR18650, and I was wondering why it reached lower voltage so quickly. Do you know what a new discharge table for the NCR18650 would look like?
 

yifu

Enlightened
Joined
Oct 15, 2011
Messages
713
Location
Australia
Hmm, interesting. I'm using Eagletac 3100mAh cells, which use the NCR18650, and I was wondering why it reached lower voltage so quickly. Do you know what a new discharge table for the NCR18650 would look like?

The new 2900/3100s can be discharged safely down to 2.5V, but the older chemistries can only be discharged to around 2.75V. The discharge curve for the 2900mah NCR is posted here. At 3.6V the cell still has more than 50% of its capacity so you shouldn't start charging at 3.6v.
http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf2/ACA4000/ACA4000CE240.pdf
You would notice that the cell only reaches maximum capacity when it's above 60 degrees celsius (or 140 F). Which is why i laugh when people say you shouldn't run a high powered light for too long and let the cells get hot in use or it'll cause explosions :) Or that once the battery gets above 40 degrees celsius it would explode. Temperatures above 50 degrees will actually net more capacity and the cell can survive way higher temperatures than 60-70 C. However, the only thing is that storing it at high temperatures will increase permanent loss of capacity to above 10% per year.
 
Last edited:

aimxplode

Enlightened
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
371
Location
California
The new 2900/3100s can be discharged safely down to 2.5V, but the older chemistries can only be discharged to around 2.75V. The discharge curve for the 2900mah NCR is posted here. At 3.6V the cell still has more than 50% of its capacity so you shouldn't start charging at 3.6v.
http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf2/ACA4000/ACA4000CE240.pdf
You would notice that the cell only reaches maximum capacity when it's above 60 degrees celsius (or 140 F). Which is why i laugh when people say you shouldn't run a high powered light for too long and let the cells get hot in use or it'll cause explosions :) Or that once the battery gets above 40 degrees celsius it would explode. Temperatures above 50 degrees will actually net more capacity and the cell can survive way higher temperatures than 60-70 C. However, the only thing is that storing it at high temperatures will increase permanent loss of capacity to above 10% per year.

I've heard that it was 2.5v was under load. So, the 3.6v you are talking about, is that under load or resting voltage?
 
Last edited:

yifu

Enlightened
Joined
Oct 15, 2011
Messages
713
Location
Australia
I've heard that it was 2.5v was under load. So, the 3.6v you are talking about, is that under load or resting voltage?
Resting voltage. I was simply saying that if you recharge the newer NCRs at 3.6V resting voltage, you forgo about 60% of it's real capacity, which makes it a 1400-1500mah cell if that's fine with you... The truth is, with these newer cells, after the sharp drop from 4.2-4v, the resting voltage and V under load reaches parity and are nearly the same. Worse cells have higher internal resistance and that will induce a voltage sag, not seen with the NCRs.
 

och

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
57
Can 18650 battery explode if you insert it into the charger the wrong way? Or into the flashlight?
 

Fusion_m8

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 23, 2005
Messages
1,922
Location
Melbourne, Australia.
Can 18650 battery explode if you insert it into the charger the wrong way? Or into the flashlight?

If UNprotected 18650s and/or if the charger/flashlight does not have any active safety features such as short circuit/overheating protection. The answer is very much a "YES".

Protected batteries have a PCB or Protection Circuit Board that prevent short circuits, over discharging and over heating to occur. Some LED flashlights have in built protection circuits that shut down operation if over heating/discharging of the battery occurs or if the batteries are inserted the wrong way, however the majority of the LED/HID and incandescent lights have no such protection and the unprotected battery(s) can explode if inserted/connected the wrong way or overdischarged/short circuited.
 
Last edited:

yifu

Enlightened
Joined
Oct 15, 2011
Messages
713
Location
Australia
Can 18650 battery explode if you insert it into the charger the wrong way? Or into the flashlight?
Won't happen with a protected AW cell. Although once the IC protection kicks in you would need a cold start charger to re-activate it.
 

Patriot

Flashaholic
Joined
Feb 13, 2007
Messages
11,255
Location
Arizona
I own 4 x 18650 3000mah Ultrafire cells recently purchased from the Marketplace. I was going to test and dissect them but I'm probably not going to get around to it. If Lux Luthor or one of the other battery gurus would like to examine the 3000mah Ultrafire cells or put them to some testing, I'll be happy to mail them out. The one condition I would set is that some form of data make it back to this thread for the sake of education.
 

benthiccracker

Enlightened
Joined
Mar 7, 2012
Messages
406
Location
United States

IMR 18490 by benthiccracker, on Flickr
So I bought these batteries brand new. I marked them and will rotate them. I have a 4 bay charger on the way. If I get a voltmeter/multimeter and check the batteries for over charge 4.2 V and over discharge <3.5 V I should be okay? I will be running them in a extended 9P overbore Zero Res switched with a Malkoff M91. SAFE?

  • Brand: Trust Fire 4 bay Charger
  • Model: TR-003P4.
  • Input 1: 110V-240V 50/60HZ.
  • Input2: DC 12V 2A.
  • Output: 4.2V 4*500Ma.
  • Constant Charge Current: 500MA [FONT=&#23435]±[/FONT]10%.
  • Constant Charge Voltage: 4.2V [FONT=&#23435]±[/FONT] 10%.
  • Cut-Off Current: 60MA [FONT=&#23435]±[/FONT] 10%[FONT=&#23435]。[/FONT]
  • Comes with protected function.
  • Comes with LED charging indication.
  • Size: 141*106*33mm.
  • Plug Standard: US Plug.
  • Compatible with 10430, 10440, 14500, 16340, 17670, 18500 and 18650 battery.
 

benthiccracker

Enlightened
Joined
Mar 7, 2012
Messages
406
Location
United States
so always be alert, check frequently each time you recharge to see if there is any damage on plastic wrapping and both terminal, if then light output suddenly act funny or you hear hissing sound, immediately put the light on vertical standing position then run away.
LOL! Run, Forest run! <Torch shoots off like a rocket>
 

yifu

Enlightened
Joined
Oct 15, 2011
Messages
713
Location
Australia
Should be ok. From my experience with a Trustfire TR-01, it has a rudimentary CC/CV phase. And either way, LiMn cells have a lower internal resistance so it will terminate at around 4.23-4.25 volts with a Trustfire. That should be fine but it would be best to terminate under 4.2V. Also, IMR cells can be discharged down to around 3V without damage and regular LiCos can be discharged down to 2.5V without damage. Discharging down to 3.7v is just plain wrong as you forgo around 50% of the capacity for an LiCo.
Your setup should be very safe. M91s only draw about 850mA with 18500s so you should use regular AW18500s as you get more runtime. I have never seen a thread about an AW cell exploding ever before so you should be very safe.
 

TEEJ

Flashaholic
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
7,490
Location
NJ

IMR 18490 by benthiccracker, on Flickr
So I bought these batteries brand new. I marked them and will rotate them. I have a 4 bay charger on the way. If I get a voltmeter/multimeter and check the batteries for over charge 4.2 V and over discharge <3.5 V I should be okay? I will be running them in a extended 9P overbore Zero Res switched with a Malkoff M91. SAFE?

  • Brand: Trust Fire 4 bay Charger
  • Model: TR-003P4.
  • Input 1: 110V-240V 50/60HZ.
  • Input2: DC 12V 2A.
  • Output: 4.2V 4*500Ma.
  • Constant Charge Current: 500MA ±10%.
  • Constant Charge Voltage: 4.2V ± 10%.
  • Cut-Off Current: 60MA ± 10%
  • Comes with protected function.
  • Comes with LED charging indication.
  • Size: 141*106*33mm.
  • Plug Standard: US Plug.
  • Compatible with 10430, 10440, 14500, 16340, 17670, 18500 and 18650 battery.

+/- 10% on the charging range is large. 4.20v +/- 10% = 4.62 v to 3.78 v

So a pair of cells could come off at 4.62 v (OVER CHARGED), or, as low as 3.78 v (Not very charged).

As a rule of thumb, don't buy a charger that is named "Anything"fire.

Because it might set anything on fire.



There are decent chargers that are programmed to charge the cells more safely...and t make the cells last longer.

For example, its great that you'd measure the charge, but what if it IS 4.62 v?

The cell is already damaged proportionally...and if the extended tube is to run multiple cells in series...and the cells come of the charger with that kind of range of charges....how are you going to get matched sets?

The cells will constantly have different histories, different internal resistance, etc.

So, in a perfect world, I'd say just replace the charger with a real one...a Pila IBC (2 Bay), or an Xtar WP6 II (6 Bay), or another one recommended by the guys here who review these things.

It would work better for your application.
 

benthiccracker

Enlightened
Joined
Mar 7, 2012
Messages
406
Location
United States
+/- 10% on the charging range is large. 4.20v +/- 10% = 4.62 v to 3.78 v

So a pair of cells could come off at 4.62 v (OVER CHARGED), or, as low as 3.78 v (Not very charged).

As a rule of thumb, don't buy a charger that is named "Anything"fire.

Because it might set anything on fire.



There are decent chargers that are programmed to charge the cells more safely...and t make the cells last longer.

For example, its great that you'd measure the charge, but what if it IS 4.62 v?

The cell is already damaged proportionally...and if the extended tube is to run multiple cells in series...and the cells come of the charger with that kind of range of charges....how are you going to get matched sets?

The cells will constantly have different histories, different internal resistance, etc.

So, in a perfect world, I'd say just replace the charger with a real one...a Pila IBC (2 Bay), or an Xtar WP6 II (6 Bay), or another one recommended by the guys here who review these things.

It would work better for your application.
Jeeez, I need to start doing more homework before I spend $$$... Anybody wanna buy a "Start-a-Fire" 4 bay charger? Cheap! J/K don't think I would get any bites anyway on this thread...
 

bshanahan14rulz

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 29, 2009
Messages
2,789
Location
Tennessee
The ones that have exploded weigh less afterwards, LOL.

Sure, they weigh less afterwards, but the air feels much heavier in your lungs, that's where all the weight goes ;-)

Take a look at the linky ;-) I think maybe the plaster filling would have made the difference in weight harder to notice, but there still ought to be a difference, right?

Not my picture, picture from the original poster at another forum: http://i.imgur.com/aPGyA.jpg
 
Last edited:

Anzycpethian

Newly Enlightened
Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
30
I don't know where else to post it but I have a question: When a lithium cell explodes inside a flashlight, isn't the aluminum tube / body of the flashlight enough armor to your hand to prevent most dangerous injuries?
Where can I find more information about what happens when a cell explodes inside a flashlight, like does the body explode in splitters or strongly dents?
 
Top