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Darrel: A typical bus route from Victoria to Houston can take anywhere from 3 to 5 hours depending on the time of day or the choice of the routes. I can make it in less than 2. I start out by carrying 4 people for the first hour. I then pick up my nephew at his house. then proceed in Houston to stop at the grand parents in Houston and then proceed to the Zoo, Mueseum, lunch, dinner etc. Some times we can squeeze 2 more people in, total 9, to do all the stuff for the weekend.


ikendu: yep I agree with diesel, but that type of vehicle needs to be on the showroom floor when your vehicle has died and you need another one now.
 
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ikendu said:
Higher mileage vehicles won't start appearing in showrooms until consumers start going in and asking "What's the mileage?" instead of "How much HP can I get?".

We have the technology. We just don't have the will.

[/ QUOTE ]My diesel-headed friend here makes a great point. How often do I hear "As soon as they make X vehicle, THEN I'll buy it"? That sounds good, but it doesn't get the cars made. Buying what they want to offer inspires them to keep telling us that "hey, we're just making what the public wants." We, the consumers, need to make some noise. The politicians aren't gonna stick their necks out. The automakers are going to continue to produce the vehicles that make the most profit in the short term. If we demonstrate the "want" for more efficient vehicles, then THOSE cars will show the best profit. Right now, of course, it is SUVs that bring in the most money.
 
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led-lurker said:
Some times we can squeeze 2 more people in, total 9, to do all the stuff for the weekend.

[/ QUOTE ]Gotcha. Well, we have the technology to make large vehicles much more efficient. It IS too bad they don't yet exist for situations just like yours.

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ikendu: yep I agree with diesel, but that type of vehicle needs to be on the showroom floor when your vehicle has died and you need another one now.

[/ QUOTE ]Indeed! And excuse me while I /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dedhorse.gif

If we never ask for the vehicles we really want, those vehicles will never be on the showroom floor. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
I'm in no position to buy new, no matter what Wonder Car they come out with.

Likewise I can't put any pressure on the manufacturers.

I drive my Beast just as little as possible (saw 15.002 MPG last fillup!) and it just kills me to see all the Hummers, Suburbans, Excursions etc. on the roads.

I also get ill when I see a pickup truck that can no longer do pickup truck work.

At least I still see <1.60 diesel prices if I look around....
 
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PlayboyJoeShmoe said:
I also get ill when I see a pickup truck that can no longer do pickup truck work.

[/ QUOTE ]Wait... you don't mean the guys who slam them to the pavement, put 22" wheels and 30-series tires on... and then, after the $5,000 in mods, still complain about having to pay a few $$ extra for gas? Nah... not those guys. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif
 
led-lurker said: ...start out by carrying 4 ... more people in, total 9

We hated to give out our minivan when the kids got out of college...but we decided to switch back to small, economy cars for the mileage.

When we had to go camping with the family and had way more stuff than would fit in one car...we just took two. So...for that trip, we got a little less total mileage than if we'd still owned the minivan. But... all the rest of the year, our high mileage compact cars met all our needs and in total, we are using far less energy.

Sometimes taking two cars is still better than owning and driving one big car all the time.

You have to do what makes sense for your situation. I'm just saying...there are alternatives.
 
Yep, I get 15 to 17 MPG on the highway with a full size Toyota. I tried to buy a Honda Pilot before the Toyota. The car makers build cars and trucks with center consoles now and depending on the geometry will pinch my 77 inch frame and some time pinch nerves on my knees. Now most vehicles do not have the option to get a car without a center console. The last commuter car we had was a 97 Mitsubishi Mirage that had no center console, that I could fit it and got around 36 MPG on the highway. My wife put 52 miles a day round trip. It was great (except for taking 4 people with all of the gear for a 3 day weekend) until tropical storm Alice made it float away.

My personal vehicles have always been trucks. I miss the convienence of throwing stuff in the back and going down the road. I tend to drive my vehicles untill they die and are not worth anything. I am 36 years old and this is only the third vehicle I have ever owned. It is paid for (with cash), so gas prices will have to go to 6$ a gallon before I rush out to trade in. That is my personal pain threshold, your results may vary. I spend about $100 per month to fuel 2 vehicles and do all of my traveling. We live extremly close to my wife's office (3 miles) but she still has to occasionly respond to an emergency call at another hospital so biking is out. per her contract she can live no farther than 20 minutes away from her primary hospital. we chose to live 3 minutes away. Any body that uses a full size truck and/or SUV and/or Dodge Magnum to commute 30 miles a day (or more for only 1 person in the vehicle) round trip for their job is an idiot.

As per my previous post, the full size SUV was not my first pick, but when you live in a City that only has the Big 3, Toyota and Honda to choose from you choices are limited when you have a vehicle that had died of old age and you can not always fit in a vehicle that get 30+ miles a gallon.
 
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Darell said:
I would be right there with you if it weren't for the nagging safety issue of your vehicle of choice. The saftey both of your passengers, and of the others on the road.

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Every piece I've read on SUV safety has questionable (at best) statistics. Usually you see something like this:

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19.5 per cent of all fatal road crashes involved rollovers, and 35.2 per cent of SUV-related fatal crashes involved rollovers. [cite]

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That sounds damning at first, but when you think about it, it loses some of it's punch. Since we're not given any context for this statistic, the simplest explanation I could think of was that it shows that it takes a more severe crash to produce a fatality in an SUV than it does in a regular car. Doesn't that imply some safety value? I think the author was trying to imply that you're more likely to be injured if your SUV rolls over than if your car rolls over, but then the statistic we'd want to see is percent of rollovers involving a fatality, not the percent of fatalities involving a rollover.

Here's another one I like:

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Bradsher reports that four-fifths of those killed in roll-overs were not belted in, even though 75 percent of the general driving population now buckles up regularly. [cite]

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We have some actual numbers here, but they don't actually show anything meaningful. First we have the statement that SUV drivers hate seatbelts. Fine, now we assume the numbers will back that statement up. Four-fifths (80%) of those killed in (presumably SUV) roll-overs were not wearing seatbelts. Great, now where are the numbers on regular automobile roll-overs? Instead of that, which would give you a meaningful comparision, we get the bait-and-switch: 75% of the general public buckles up! Gee, that's a great stat, but how many car drivers buckle up, and how many SUV drivers do so? No idea. Did the author of the book make this same mistake, or is it the reviewer's bad grasp of basic statistics? I'm not planning on wasting the money on the book to find out.

Inevitably, these SUV "expose" stories degenerate into anecdotal evidence and ad hominem.

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...the bigger the SUV, the more of a jerk its driver is likely to be. [ibid.]

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SUV drivers generally don't care about anyone else's kids but their own, are very concerned with how other people see them rather than with what's practical, and they tend to want to control or have control over the people around them. [ibid.]

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The argument that SUV drivers are "assholes" is really hilarious. Do people think these guys were nice people before they bought their first SUV? I've got news for you - there are lots of assholes driving regular cars, too! I guess they're just "future SUV drivers." :|

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...automakers have, over the past decade, ramped up their SUV designs to appeal even more to the "reptilian" instincts of the many Americans who are attracted to SUVs not because of their perceived safety, but for their obvious aggressiveness. [ibid.]

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So the aesthetics are damaging the environment? Or causing more deaths? Uh, what's the problem here? Marketing guys giving people what they want?
 
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Darell said:
You mean the full purchase-price first-year tax write-off wasn't enough of an incentive? Dang. That's good news.

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To be fair, isn't the tax write off just for businesses? And it's intended for delivery vehicles or other large commercial vehicles, it's just an unintended side effect that the H2 qualifies. There's no specific "Hummer Deduction."
 
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tylerdurden said:
To be fair, isn't the tax write off just for businesses? And it's intended for delivery vehicles or other large commercial vehicles, it's just an unintended side effect that the H2 qualifies. There's no specific "Hummer Deduction."

[/ QUOTE ]I didn't call it a Hummer Deduction though that is what it has become. Yes it is for businesses only... but for ANY business. Yes it is intended for industrial/farm vehicles. The intent is being abused. The abuse is not unintended. Vehicles are being built on purpose today to be just a few pounds over the limit to qualify. And these vehicles are being marketed with this "feature" of big money savings.
 
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tylerdurden said:
So the aesthetics are damaging the environment? Or causing more deaths? Uh, what's the problem here? Marketing guys giving people what they want?

[/ QUOTE ]Tyler -

I have no desire to debate this. You've obviously made up your mind. I would like to suggest that you do some more research on this, however. If you can, find out what SUV injuries (vs any other class of vehicle) are costing insurance companies. I don't claim to know all the answers, but I am quite confident that SUVs are responsible for more deaths per mile than any other vehicle class.
 
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Darell said:
The intent is being abused. The abuse is not unintended.

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I agree. But then again, I think people should take full advantage of every tax loophole they can.
 
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tylerdurden said:
I agree. But then again, I think people should take full advantage of every tax loophole they can.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm all for 'em too! Right up until they start harming others. And this qualifies in spades, I'm afriad. This is a loophole that rewards people who purchase some of our dirtiest, most fossil-fuel hungry, deadliest vehicles on the road. I'm not a big fan of being dependent on other countries for our energy... and here we are subsidizing that very thing. With MY tax dollars.
 
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Darell said:
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PlayboyJoeShmoe said:
I also get ill when I see a pickup truck that can no longer do pickup truck work.

[/ QUOTE ]Wait... you don't mean the guys who slam them to the pavement, put 22" wheels and 30-series tires on... and then, after the $5,000 in mods, still complain about having to pay a few $$ extra for gas? Nah... not those guys. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif

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Indeed Darell, that is one class.

But here is another example. Every day (weekday that is) a Crew Cab Dually F-350 with a hard bed cover and no trailer ball. With ONE Lady driving it, comes down my Dads street.

It IS diesel, so it could be worse. It still hacks me off!

And LOTS and LOTS of new Dodge and Ford 1/2ton Crews with bed covers, being used as a car.

I think you get the jist of what I'm saying!

A couple of the big name stations have 1.69.9 diesel signs up. I can still get 1.55ish if I drive south a bit, or way north (up HWY59 N near Splendora is a Flying J with GOOD diesel price!).
 
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Darell said:

You've obviously made up your mind. I would like to suggest that you do some more research on this, however. If you can, find out what SUV injuries (vs any other class of vehicle) are costing insurance companies. I don't claim to know all the answers, but I am quite confident that SUVs are responsible for more deaths per mile than any other vehicle class.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have not made up my mind about this. I am just pointing out that MOST of the stories about "how evil SUVs are" in the mainstream media have shitty statistics and then devolve into simple namecalling and critiquing the mindset of the SUV driver (instead of the facts of SUVs themselves). There may be real data out there and it could all just be dumbass journalists who don't understand statistics munging it in an effort to "sex it up."

Comparing something like (eg) "average number of fatalites per accident" for cars vs. SUVs is meaningless without data like "average number of occupants" for cars vs. SUVs to go along with it. Many "news" stories seem to forget this. Journalists claim that their big value-add is their research, editing, and fact-checking resources but too often they are underutilized are just plain wrong.

For the record I drive a minivan, though I have driven an SUV in the past. I prefer the minivan.
 
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PlayboyJoeShmoe said:
But here is another example. Every day (weekday that is) a Crew Cab Dually F-350 with a hard bed cover and no trailer ball. With ONE Lady driving it, comes down my Dads street.

[/ QUOTE ]Oh yeah. We have the same single-passenger commute vehicles around here. Add the chrome-clad Hummer and a smattering of Escalades to round it all out, and there's hardly room for a little EV on the road.

With all my big talk, there isn't a day that goes by when I don't wonder if I'm just wasting my time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif
 
Wow! Tough to keep up with all the similar threads these days! They've all pretty much become the same thing. grrr. And I mean grrr at me, since I'm as much at fault as anybody...

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tylerdurden said:
I have not made up my mind about this.... There may be real data out there and it could all just be dumbass journalists who don't understand statistics munging it in an effort to "sex it up."

[/ QUOTE ]Excellent. Yup, we're in agreement. You simply can't believe all that you hear. But interestingly enough, there is far more GOOD press out there about SUVs (in the form of advertising) that the motoring public doesn't seem to question.

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Comparing something like (eg) "average number of fatalites per accident" for cars vs. SUVs is meaningless without data like "average number of occupants" for cars vs. SUVs to go along with it.

[/ QUOTE ]"Meaningless" might be a bit exreme, but less relevant is certainly true. And good news! We have those numbers for anybody who cares to find them.

Congrats on driving one of the safest vehicle classes on the road.
 
The "drive" toward big vehicles isn't likely to change until fuel costs remain high enough to really start to hurt.

That's too bad...but a fact of life IMHO.

If anyone's got ideas how to "sell" some sort of program to encourage higher fuel mileage to the American motoring public...I'd really love to hear it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Here's an idea I've been thinking about...

If we added 10 cents of tax to every gallon of gasoline...we could put in a subsidy (or just lower existing taxes) of 20 cents for every gallon of diesel (we consume two gallons of gasoline for every one gallon of diesel in the U.S.).

Diesel engines get about 15% better fuel economy (with a big increase in torque at the same time!) just due to the engine design alone (another 15% or so is due to the higher energy content of diesel fuel). People that wanted to really save on fuel costs could shift to diesels (diesel fuel is also hugely safer to transport and use...another benefit). Plus...much of our goods and services today ride on the diesel trucking industry, this would lower costs for all of those things.

BTW...diesels develop their big torque bonus at less than half the engine speed of a gasoline engine...way less engine wear! PBS ran a Scientific American Frontiers show last week that did a nice job of demonstrating how new clean diesel technologies will provide extremely clean diesel ICEs. Although...they didn't even mention biodiesel. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

This "shift the tax from one fuel to another" idea would get people to shift to more fuel efficient engines and position them to use biodiesel some day if that ever really takes off. Less fuel now and even less petroleum in the future. Some of us (EV & biodiesel users /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) have ALREADY hugely reduced our use of petroleum!

Just an idea! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Anybody got others?
 
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