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Good stuff, BB -

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BB said:
hydrogen/fuel cell cars are almost as range limited as today's battery electrics.

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A FCV has never been made that can compete with the range of today's (and by that I mean current battery chemistry, not any of the "production" EVs that are saddled with yesterday's chemistries) Battery Electrics.

Li-ion Tzero. 0-60 in 3.6 seconds (offical), 300+ mile range at 60mph. And this car, hand-built as a single unit, cost 1/4th of what the cheapest FCV has required in funds. If $Billions of federal monies were being offered to fund battery research, and the automakers wanted to build these (like they say they want to build FEV's, BEV's would rule. And there'd be no looking back.
 
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PlayboyJoeShmoe said:
The subject of EVs, FCVs, Hybrids etc. is utterly fascinating!


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I think so too... but I still feel guilty about hijacking the thread. Sorry Marty!

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I think it will be after I'm dead before serious change comes about.

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Straight electric would never work for me here around Houston.

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Oooh! Watch that "never" word. You mean it won't work for you *today*. 90 years ago you couldn't have done what you need to do with the current ICE technology either. And electrics are advancing WAY the heck faster than ICE technology ever did.

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Now give me a diesel/electric Hybrid option I can afford...

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That is *exactly* what I'd like to do... and it is one of the reasons that I spend so much time on this subject. But you can't have one until there is public outcry. Wouldn't you love to have twice the towing power and twice the fuel mileage? It can happen.
 
Darell or Ikendu
What was the effective mile per gallon with FC's, bio-D, dino-D, gas and electric? If I remember electric was about 60mpg, and FC's was about 15-20mpg using gasoline and about 15mpg using hydrogen?

Of course this doesn't take in to account the power used to make the gasoline of diesel in the first place, or the massive amounts of power it will take to make hydrogen.

The thing that really bugs me about FC's is they still use gas, and at a greater rate them any hybrid. Granted they might be cleaner buring, but why take a step backwards?
 
i saw a show on tv the guy ran his car on old grease like u make frys in. was a very cool program the names escapes me
 
Yup that is one way to make Bio-D, from wast cooking oil, I ran my car on it last summer /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif There is a way to run it straight though.
 
raggie33 said:...ran his car on old grease

Yup. This is known as Straight Vegetable Oil (SVO). It has to be heated to 165 F before it is thin enough to flow through the diesel injectors. In effect you have two tanks. One regular diesel (or biodiesel) tank to start your vehicle and another tank heated by engine coolant. Once the used oil is up to 165F, you switch over to the used oil tank. You have to switch back to regular diesel for about 5 minutes before you shut down (otherwise the used oil gels back up and clogs the fuel system when you go to start the vehicle the next time). Biodiesel thins vegetable oils chemically so no heating is needed.

There is some talk that SVO is not compatible with the super high pressure injection systems now becoming popular (like the "common rail" design on the Cummins diesel in the Dodge trucks since 2003). Even the heated SVO is just too thick to go thru these super high pressure systems properly.

Many folks make BioDiesel from used fryer oil by using the chemical conversion process (costs about 40 cents/gal).
 
Ikendu I remember that post, but I thought someone linked to a site that gave us current FC's mileage, I just remember being shocked it was so low, yet everying is pushing for it???
 
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Brock said:
What was the effective mile per gallon with FC's, bio-D, dino-D, gas and electric? If I remember electric was about 60mpg, and FC's was about 15-20mpg using gasoline and about 15mpg using hydrogen?

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Here is the table that ikendu referenced (with a direct link, no less!):
27.8 mpg (1996 reference gasoline powered car)
49.1 mpg (2020 advanced gasoline)
56.0 mpg (2020 advanced diesel)
70.8 mpg (2020 hybrid gasoline)
82.3 mpg (2020 hybrid diesel)
42.3 mpg (2020 Fuel Cell on-board hydrogen extraction from gasoline)
56.9 mpg (2020 Fuel Cell on-board hydrogen extraction from methanol)

Please notice the *year* reference. Now harken back to 1990 when the Impact (prototype of the EV1) came out. After just three years of development, we had a car with the effective GGE of 120 mpg. My EV1 was the same. My Rav with it's barn-door-like aerodynamics suffers along at about 100 GGE. Both the EV1 and Rav4 were released (and unchanged since) 1996. Hmmm. Wonder where we'd be if we had a second or third generation of production EV by now? Where would be we in 2020?

Obviously these numbers ignore all upstream and downstream pollution and energy to originally create the "fuel."
 
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Brock said:
current FC's mileage, I just remember being shocked it was so low, yet everying is pushing for it???

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GGE for the few "demo" FCV's on the road today averages about 20 mpg.
 
OK, is everybody ready for this? Are you ready to smile and laugh at Darell? Actually, I don't know how ANYBODY could prepare themselves for this. It just isn't possible. I've been toiling away day and night to come up with something fun to do in the up-coming parades in which I'll be driving the Rav.

Wasn't gonna show this publicly, but Brock and ikendu made me do it!

Ready? Then: http://darelldd.com/rav/rav_plug_sm.jpg
 
duh.gif
 
Darell, I'm thinkin' of this song:

"Spring little cobra gettin' ready to strike... spring little cobra..."

Honestly, Darell...this is just TOO cool! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Just imagine backing that in to the garage just right to get it plugged in, no wonder no one wants an EV /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
FC is not necessary have to be fueled by hydrogen, I am not talking about using reformer either. But there is direct methanol FC.
I know methanol is toxic but if it handle properly it should be ok. If I remember correctly, one way to produce methanol is from sugar cane. So it is a renewable energy.
Unlike hydrogen, with methanol you dont need super presurred tank.
Would DMFC better than just straight hydrogen FC?

I am no expert in this subject, so please correct me if I am wrong.
 
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Brock said:
Just imagine backing that in to the garage just right to get it plugged in, no wonder no one wants an EV /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

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Having the plug on the back makes driving in reverse a whole new experience. Mothers don't let their daughters out to play any more in my neighborhood.

I'm thinking about painting a giant outlet on my garage door next. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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RewopEldnac said:
FC is not necessary have to be fueled by hydrogen

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Quite true, though that *appears* to be the plan currently (to use pure H2)

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Unlike hydrogen, with methanol you dont need super presurred tank.
Would DMFC better than just straight hydrogen FC?

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I know very little about DMFC, and don't have the answer for this. I could find the answer if you're really interested though. The only thing I know is that nobody is building, nor are the currently *considering* building a FCV with DMFC technology. There must be a reason in there somewhere since you'd think they'd want to do it in the most effective way possible. The demo "production" FCVs on the road today all require very pure H2.
 
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif .... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

RAV looks too cool, Darell!! What a great way to "plug" the use of EV's!!!!
 
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