US proposed knife ban could include any one hand opening knives

I carry and use whatever I wish.
If I get caught with something or get into trouble I will pay the consequences. I'm 100% fine with that. No reason to give the Police a hard time for just doing their job.

Till then I have what I need with me, whatever I feel it is I need. Laws are all well and good and I properly follow most of them. I also behave myself so there's no reason for anyone to become interested in what I carry. It's worked well for me for a long time. Act like you have sense in public, respect others, and be respectable that way nobody feels the need to search you.

:shrug: Am I just nuts or what?
 
Kind of agree with you there about the lock. What happens is that from about 12 years old, you learn to be careful and don't let it close on your fingers. Call it natural selection.

True, you learn to be careful. But at the same time, I know for a fact that I'm not perfect, and that lack of perfection can affect me at any time, hence the use of a safety mechanism on my knife. Same reason for other forms of insurance, monetary and otherwise, seatbelts, safety goggles when using class IV lasers, PFDs and so on. Sure I learn to be careful about what I'm doing, I'd be terribly remiss if I didn't, but that in no way implies that I shouldn't use said safety equipment. In case you're wondering, my threshold of useful vs stupid safety devices is set just a bit below the "locks on knives" level.
 
Fact remains. You can look it up anywhere. No good just burying your head in the sand and tying to ignore facts.
Try Google. Site :uk. Gun fatalities. Choice of hundreds of Govenment, charity, newspaper articles, etc, etc, etc. They will all say the same.

Re: my point about Americans so used to gun crime they can't concieve the lack of it.

Interesting how your response completely ignored the facts I presented in my other post.

Allow me to clarify... If that "7" was accurate, do you honestly believe that the police officers' union in England would have won the particular victory I mentioned above? I highly doubt it.

You don't get major police policy changes for less than 10, isolated, out-of-the-ordinary, incidents per year. You get such a policy change due to angry officers who are p*$$ed off at being shot at. And apparently at an often-enough basis, that their union's case was strong enough to at least get a partial victory.

I don't need to quote statistics from any website with an obvious bias. I know there's no way in the world that there are about less than 10 incidents per year. And I know it, because I know about the major police policy change that took place just a few years ago; in your country. You don't get that type of change without a major problem existing in the first place, with regards to officers being shot at and assaulted.
 
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I for one am contacting my elected representatives as per the method given on kniferights.org. The fact of the matter is I can make almost any knife open with one hand, including most well maintained SAKs. The verbiage of the proposal is far too ambiguous and as usual out of touch with reality.

While not a firearm owner myself, I support and stand up for the rights of firearm owners for the most part not because I particularly like guns but because I understand the reality of the present day. And well, when similarly unrealistic proposals go forth about knives, I'm not about to sit quietly either.

:ohgeez:
 
Interesting how your response completely ignored the facts I presented in my other post. .
Perhaps you don't understand what a fact is. I presented facts, you presented an opinion based on something which you obviously know nothing about. ( such as the next comment )

You don't get major police policy changes for less than 10, isolated, out-of-the-ordinary, incidents per year.
You do over here. You get major policy changes for a single incident. In fact, anytime an English police officer discharges his weapon, he is automatically suspended from active duty until an investigation is completed by a public organisation independent of the police force. They may then recommend changes to police procedure. You don't seem to understand the difference between the US and the UK. You make policy changes because something happens lots of times. We make policy changes because it happened ONCE.

You get such a policy change due to angry officers who are p*$$ed off at being shot at. And apparently at an often-enough basis, that their union's case was strong enough to at least get a partial victory.
Hell, it's like trying to point something out to a blind man. Police in England don't get shot at because the criminals don't have guns. We are still talking about a police woman who was shot outside the Iranian Embassy in the 1980's. Last time I heard of a police officer getting shot dead, it was over a year ago and that was an accident at a police training camp.

I don't need to quote statistics from any website with an obvious bias.
Yes you do, mostly because it's not a website, it's every single report ever done by anyone. It's every single newspaper in England. It's every single pro or anti-gun group in England. It's every single anti-violence charity in England.

THESE ARE THE FACTS.

Please stop sprouting all this un-informed made-up claptrap and look up some facts. Saying that you are right and that everyone else in the world must be wrong because it doesn't fit what you believe just makes you look like a fool.
 
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The UK law pretty much narrows down to, if you need to use a knife for a job, you can. If you want to carry one around with you 'just in case', it has to be small, folding, non automatic and un-lockable. Seems quite sensible to me.

On the other hand, and this is an argument for all the 'civil liberties' and 'rights' campaigners, if you were previously allowed to carry locking knives and had that right taken away from you… I can see how that would **** people off. In England because we didn't grow up with that right, we therefore don't feel that we have lost anything.
 
On the other hand, and this is an argument for all the 'civil liberties' and 'rights' campaigners, if you were previously allowed to carry locking knives and had that right taken away from you… I can see how that would **** people off. In England because we didn't grow up with that right, we therefore don't feel that we have lost anything.

Well put. :clap: That is a major component of the issue many of us have. If we allow "them" to take one freedom from us today, what will "they" try to take away tomorrow? Where does it end? What is too much and by the time "they" reach that point will we still have enough rights and freedoms left to tell them "no" ?
 
Civil liberties are merely affirmations of inherent human rights. Not the least of which is the ability to defend yourself.

When the government decides how, when, and if you are allowed to protect yourself and your family, because they feel you are not intelligent enough to decide that yourself, you are in a nanny state. When the government decides that only police are allowed to carry and employ a device that levels the playing field with the criminal population, you are in a police state.

I won't argue the facts about US vs. UK. The US does have a higher homicide rate per capita, regardless of the implement. The UK seems to have a rising violent crime rate while the US rate is dropping. The crime problem is not solved by restrictions on how citizens can defend themselves. There will always be those that respect the rights of others and those that do not. Swift and harsh punishment to those that do not play by the rules of rational, civilized societies and respect those rights is merely a deterrent, but a fairly good one.

If my life is threatened by another, I have no sympathy for that individual, I do not inquire as to where society failed him, to cause him to commit these acts. Instead, I wish violence upon him in the same manner as I have recieved.

My issue with the governmental control of devices that may be used as weapons is just that, government control. When the government takes something, they do not give it back voluntarily. Big government is the enemy of freedom. You are no longer a citizen. You are a subject.
 
Well said Gallonoffuel.
Education and harsh sentencing is the answer. Though UK violent crime is apparently dropping quite fast this year. It's been a bit fashionable for youths in inner city areas to carry knives for the past few years and knife crime rose as a result. Seems that this year, that has turned somewhat. Mostly I believe due to a big push to educate kids on the consequences of carrying a knife.

Though always feel wary when someone talks about inherent human rights. I think it should always be followed by the phrase 'within a society'. In most western societies for example, we have the 'right' to freedom of religion. There are a lot of countries where this 'right' does not exist within that society and it's not expected or even, in many cases, wanted. All 'human rights' are society based. I don't believe that you get any automatic rights just for being born a human.
 
I would argue that we get *every* right just for being born a human. In the same way a lion has the right to kill its prey, and the prey has the right to defend itself if possible. Society takes away certain rights, or at least imposes consequences to deter the execution of those rights.

I just realized we have gotten way off track. Sorry mods. 🙁
 
Police in England don't get shot at because the criminals don't have guns.

I read your post, but singled out this line because it speaks volumes, all by itself. And, is extremely easy to disprove. I've PMed you evidence that criminals in your nation do indeed have guns. However, due to some of the very non-family friendly comments that the video has generated, I won't post the link directly on CPF. (Hopefully, you'll believe your own eyes).

There have been documented cases of police officers being shot at, by suspects. Cases which the police union in your country used as examples, in order to get their officers the right to use handguns at their own discretion. If there are no criminals with guns in your nation, seems extremely odd that the union would have gotten that victory just a few short years ago.



THESE ARE THE FACTS.

Nope. Those are statistics from biased sources which you clearly believe in, with all your heart & soul. And the bold type tells me that when someone comes along, and points out that they are not hard facts; it upsets you. For some odd reason, you honestly believe that an inanimate object can cause decent folks to commit crimes.

You also make statements that speak for themselves. Such as how your facts are supported in any news story, website, press-release from a propaganda ministry. (Ok, I'll give you the last one).

Call me a glutton for punishment for trying to point out that you've been lied to. Some folks prefer the lies. Clearly if someone believes that there are no violent criminals in their country who have guns, that person is able to sleep better at night; due to their false sense of security. Wasn't my intent to try to take that away from you.

I'll let the other CPFers decide which one of us has presented facts, and which one hasn't. I believe I've presented an excellent case. They'll look at your statements, and decide for themselves. I'll even let you have the last word... With some of the general, broad, sweeping statements you've made so far (including the one I quoted above); I'm sure whatever you say will just make my posts look even better.
 
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There is also a correlation between gun owners or the possibility of someone being armed and crimes being halted or never even attempted, too bad the pointy heads we employ with our tax dollars don't even attempt to track that data.

......

I just finished an interesting book, Freakonomics and at the very least, it was excellent food for thought. In it, if I recall correctly, they might have questioned this correlation or at least the existence of viable data to support it. However I think they did agree with the premise. They also pointed out the distinction between correlation and cause/effect relationships.

When I said there was a correlation between knives and knife crimes, I meant it in almost a tautology; by definition a knife crime involves a knife. If there were no such thing as a knife then there would be no such thing as a knife crime. There is no indication though that the previous knife crime might not have become a pie cutter or garden shovel crime in the absence of knives. Granted there is perhaps a difference in opportunity but still the point remains and supported if the motive remains.

In the mentioned book, they point out that if a home owner has small children and also owns a gun as well as a swimming pool in the back yard that the probability of harm coming to the children from the gun is way much less than the probability of harm from the swimming pool. In many cases, there may be gun lock laws in place but none regarding enclosures or impediments to keep the children out of the pool. I got the sense that these guys argued that we need to look at actual causes and if laws are written, they need to focus on the causes themselves and not the instruments used in the cause.

In the case of a crime, you have motive, opportunity and ability to carry out the crime. It would seem that the proposed ban is based on the assumption that this would have a meaningful impact on the ability to carry out a crime? It seems to me that:

A) the ban is unlikely to keep these tools, if they really are so great in providing the needed ability to the criminal, from the criminal. They could indeed bring to life additional crime in a black market of supply.

B) Again assuming that these knives are so great as weapons, they are now not available to law abiding citizens intent on having a means of self defense but likely available to those with disregard for the law and intent on criminal behavior.

C) I am confident that the intended crime could be carried out with the use of some other tool in lieu of the banned knife.

D) if this ban is as wide in scope as assumed and discussed here then the retractable box cutters and folding box cutters should be included. If that were to be the case, I expect there to be more harm among the population by accidental and self inflicted wounds resulting from exposed and sharp blades in the work areas. More blood may flow and more harm resulting because of the ban.

To anyone curious about the mentioned book, I won't get into it here as it is likely a topic for the underground but these guys make a strong case (indirectly) for the consideration that Roe VS Wade has had much more impact on the crimes this ban is addressing than any ban on knife design is likely to have!
 
Though always feel wary when someone talks about inherent human rights. I think it should always be followed by the phrase 'within a society'. In most western societies for example, we have the 'right' to freedom of religion. There are a lot of countries where this 'right' does not exist within that society and it's not expected or even, in many cases, wanted. All 'human rights' are society based. I don't believe that you get any automatic rights just for being born a human.

And another layer peels away to begin revealing the true nature of the collectivist.

This mentality is beyond disturbing. It's grotesque, and gives rise to monsters.
 
When I said there was a correlation between knives and knife crimes, I meant it in almost a tautology; by definition a knife crime involves a knife. If there were no such thing as a knife then there would be no such thing as a knife crime. There is no indication though that the previous knife crime might not have become a pie cutter or garden shovel crime in the absence of knives. Granted there is perhaps a difference in opportunity but still the point remains and supported if the motive remains.

In most peoples minds an "(insert the inanimate object here) crime" would include an act of violence or threat of it using said object, if this ban is passed via bureaucratic fiat then the term can include a person who owned a banned item prior to said ban or any that purchase one after, no longer meeting the standard in which motive/means/opportunity would matter?

As for viable data, just think whenever most idiots who go on killing sprees are stopped it is from 1 of 2 ways, suicide or when someone else armed shows up.
If they knew in advance of the possibility that 50% of the people at the point of attack may be armed sure they may still be stupid/insane enough to carry out their crime but there more than likely would be far less casualties.
 
If they knew in advance of the possibility that 50% of the people at the point of attack may be armed sure they may still be stupid/insane enough to carry out their crime but there more than likely would be far less casualties.
I've been saying exactly this for years whenever someone brings up the subject of taking any means of self defense out of the hands of citizens.
 
And another layer peels away to begin revealing the true nature of the collectivist.

This mentality is beyond disturbing. It's grotesque, and gives rise to monsters.
What I think Jay R is alluding to is that you give up the ability to do certain things you might do "in the wild" if you choose to live in society. For example, if I see an attractive person of the opposite sex on the street I can't just grab them and do whatever the heck I please with them. Prior to civilization and laws I could (although granted such an encounter wouldn't have taken place in the streets because there were none). With civilization it's a simple matter of finding the balance of which and how many things you make illegal as the price for keeping our animalistic instincts from making civilization uncivilized.

Relating this to the subject at hand, some countries choose to effectively take away the means of self-defense on the premise that those means are also kept out of the hands of would-be criminals. Flawed thinking in my opinion, but not for the reason usually given (i.e. criminals will obtain said weapon anyway because they obviously have contempt for the law). Rather, it's flawed thinking because somebody else can make money selling them said weapon, or in simpler terms somebody else gains something. So bans just succeed in creating black markets. We've seen exactly that with guns and also with recreational drugs. Now in a society where there was no money or equivalent, there would be no incentive for anyone to set up a black market for a banned item as there would be no gain for them by selling it. Hence, by banning it, taking it away from those who already own it, and preventing its manufacture you could reasonably assume that you'll mostly get rid of it. Now how to get from today's society to one where money, or the concept of wealth, is effectively obsolete is a discussion in and of itself but not for this thread. IMO we'll get there, but likely not in the lifetimes of most of the posters in this thread.
 
... Now how to get from today's society to one where money, or the concept of wealth, is effectively obsolete is a discussion in and of itself but not for this thread. IMO we'll get there, but likely not in the lifetimes of most of the posters in this thread.

Not ever going to get there. People want wealth. Whether they work hard for it, or spend every penny on lottery tickets. It's just basic human nature. If I held a raffle, and the winning prize was a bag full of money; do you believe anyone would refuse the prize?
 
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