Vintage light with dynamo hub, advice needed

flammenwurfer

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Jul 8, 2010
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I built up a dynamo hub wheel and already upgraded the light to led in a very rough and probably inefficent manner. Haha. I'm running the dynamo hub through a bridge rectifier from radio shack into my light which is 25 cheap 3mm leds bought on ebay wired in parallel.

The hub puts out 6V 3W ~500ma. I've been doing lots of reading and trying to come up with a brighter more efficient setup while keeping it relatively simple. Here's my idea so far...

Dynamo > Schottky diodes > 2 cree xr-e q5 leds. I would also like to throw a supercap in there for a stand light, but I'm not sure where that would be wired in.

Another question I have is about mounting it in the housing. I see a lot of people mounting their leds on pieces of aluminum. Where do I get pieces of aluminum for this purpose and how would I go about mounting it inside my vintage light housing?

Please tell me if my plan is stupid and will not work :). Here is a picture of the light housing.

IMAG0102.jpg
 
You may get something "efficient" in terms of lumen output, but you are very unlikely to get something efficient in terms of directing light where you want it - the optics design is very important.

I'd just look for a retro styled 3W LED headlamp...
 
Oh, and I forgot to mention that inexpensive is also one of my goals. So a premade light is pretty much out of the question. Unless somebody knows of a really cheap one that I've never heard of.
 
My first try at a LED headlight was an array of 60 5mm leds, and it became clear that it wasn't a great method.

Retro-fitting LEDs into an old housing seems like a great idea, but getting the heat out is tough. I usually just get some aluminum extrusion from the hardware store, mount LEDs and optics to it, and cut and glue/epoxy some plexiglass to form a cover for the LEDs and optics. Very low tech, and all done with a hacksaw and hand-drill.

I do put extra effort into the electronics, though. For the standlight, there was a good thread about a year(?) ago that discussed a lot of options.

I documented the build of my current LED headlight on my Flickr page:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kurtsj00/sets/72157621965148305/

The only change I've made since then was to change to Ledil Rocket optics in order to get a narrower beam than the Ledil CRS optics.
Plus, I'm still trying to find time to build up the spiffy circuit. <sigh> I'm just using a bridge rectifier made of schottky diodes and nothing else. Really want to get the standlight built up, though.

regards,
Steve K.

p.s. love the Raleigh! What model? I've got a couple of vintage Raleighs myself; mid 70's and early 80's.
 
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Is this the thread you're talking about? I've spent probably more time than I should have reading that today :), considering I'm at work. Much of it is over my head, but I think I have a slight idea of what will and won't work. I'm no electrical expert and I'm having a hard time understanding the circuit schematics that people post. I just can't visualize how the actual components would be wired together based on the drawings.

I see people mentioning using either an Si bridge? or schottky diodes. What is the difference?

If I understand correctly, using 2 cree xr-e q5 leds, I would want to wire them in series, and if I want to use a supercap for a standlight, I would want to wire it in parallel with the 2nd led in the series. Is that correct?

p.s. Thanks! It's a Raleigh Technium 480. I'm not sure what year it is. I also have a Raleigh Sports that I ride to get groceries and beer. I'll see I can post some pictures later. What is that bike in your flickr photos with the P headbadge? I don't recognize it.
 
Is this the thread you're talking about? I've spent probably more time than I should have reading that today :), considering I'm at work. Much of it is over my head, but I think I have a slight idea of what will and won't work. I'm no electrical expert and I'm having a hard time understanding the circuit schematics that people post. I just can't visualize how the actual components would be wired together based on the drawings.

I see people mentioning using either an Si bridge? or schottky diodes. What is the difference?

If I understand correctly, using 2 cree xr-e q5 leds, I would want to wire them in series, and if I want to use a supercap for a standlight, I would want to wire it in parallel with the 2nd led in the series. Is that correct?

p.s. Thanks! It's a Raleigh Technium 480. I'm not sure what year it is. I also have a Raleigh Sports that I ride to get groceries and beer. I'll see I can post some pictures later. What is that bike in your flickr photos with the P headbadge? I don't recognize it.

that is the correct thread. The simplest schematic might be the best for a non-technical person.

"Si" means a regular silicon diode, like a 1N4002. A schottky diode will have a lower voltage drop, but this is a minor concern as long as you don't find yourself slowly grunting up really steep hills (like I do....)

You'll want to wire the supercap in parallel with one of the two LEDs that are wired in series. It doesn't really matter which one.

I was wondering if your bike was a Technium, but it wasn't easy to tell from the picture. Those were Raleigh's first experimentation with anything other than steel tubes in frames.

My bike with the "P" headbadge was built by Rich Powers, a small builder who now lived in Iowa. I think I've got a Flickr set with more pics of the bike. It's got all of the features I wanted, including S&S couplers, little braze-on's for taillight wires, full racks, etc. Plus, it's got a nice retro paint job. A very nice bike.

regards,
Steve K.
 
It's not that I'm not technical, I just don't want this to turn into me obsessing and trying to become an expert on bike light circuits and electricity. I have this problem where I try to know everything about everything and it eats up all of my time :).

So, the bridge rectifier that I already have is a Si diode then? I have a couple respectable hills that I ride every now and then, but I tend to keep my speed up for the most part. As long as my new light is brighter than what I have, I'll be happy so I think I'll just stick with the simple bridge rectifier. What I really need to work on I think is fabricating a vintage looking light housing out of something. I'm ok with not using my current vintage housing. I think it will be too hard to try and cram this in there and have it still look good.

Yep, one of the early Raleigh aluminum frames. The rear triangle is steel though. Here's a kind of crappy pic. It's the only one I have of it in it's current state.
IMAG0099.jpg


I'd like to see some more photos of your bike. Sounds very cool!
 
It's not that I'm not technical, I just don't want this to turn into me obsessing and trying to become an expert on bike light circuits and electricity. I have this problem where I try to know everything about everything and it eats up all of my time :).

We have a waverer.... come to the dark side :devil: Haha, no really, you sound just like me.
 
We have a waverer.... come to the dark side :devil: Haha, no really, you sound just like me.

Glad to know I'm not the only one. I just can't help but research to death anything I'm interested in. I don't know why. I move from one thing to the next. It's very tempting to really dive into this in detail, but I'm trying to keep it simple for my sanity's sake.

I really don't need a 100% efficient light. I just need it to light my way while while riding about 10 mph and the stand light stay on for about 30 seconds so people can see that I'm there. I'm not doing anything crazy, just riding around for simple transportation.
 
So, the bridge rectifier that I already have is a Si diode then? I have a couple respectable hills that I ride every now and then, but I tend to keep my speed up for the most part. As long as my new light is brighter than what I have, I'll be happy so I think I'll just stick with the simple bridge rectifier. What I really need to work on I think is fabricating a vintage looking light housing out of something. I'm ok with not using my current vintage housing. I think it will be too hard to try and cram this in there and have it still look good.

Yep, one of the early Raleigh aluminum frames. The rear triangle is steel though. Here's a kind of crappy pic. It's the only one I have of it in it's current state.
<image removed>

I'd like to see some more photos of your bike. Sounds very cool!

There may be ways to keep the vintage housing. The two challenges are the optics and the heatsinking. The optics can be implemented by using the molded optics that mount over the LEDs, and replacing the headlight optics with a piece of flat plexiglass.

The heatsinking will take a bit more creativity. You'll either need to direct a lot of air to an internal heatsink, or create a thermal path to an external heatsink. In the pictures of my Powers bike:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kurtsj00/sets/72157601245803377/
I used the reflector from an old Union headlight and mounted a side-emitting Luxeon V in it. I mounted the Luxeon on a brass nut, and threaded that onto a threaded aluminum rod (it's amazing what you can buy at McMaster Carr). The reflector was expoxied onto a washer, which was then held onto the threaded rod by locknuts. The threaded aluminum rod also allowed me to move the Luxeon forward and backwards in the reflector in order to focus the beam. I had an aluminum plate mounted behind the reflector as a heatsink, again using brass nuts as locknuts to hold the alu. plate. The threaded rod also was how the whole assembly attached to a mounting bracket.

You might be able to bolt an aluminum plate into the headlight housing, mount the LEDs to it, and then fabricate a hefty aluminum bracket that can serve as a mounting fixture that extends outside of the housing to provide heatsinking too. This would be more effort that I'd put into it, but...

I'd also recommend doing something about that bridge rectifier to tidy it up and house it in the headlight assembly. It needs to stay dry and out of the elements.

regards,
Steve K.
 
I've considered replacing the stock Union Lens with something clear, and I haven't ruled it out yet. I'm still not sure about heatsinking inside of the housing though. How much heatsinking would be required by 2 cree xr-e q5's being powered by a dynamo? I mean how do I know how big of a heatsink I need to attach?

I'm thinking just making a housing on my own will end up being easier, but I want to make it round. I just don't think square lights look right. I feel like lights should be round.

Very cool bike! What's with those silver colored bulges on the frame tubes?
 
I've considered replacing the stock Union Lens with something clear, and I haven't ruled it out yet. I'm still not sure about heatsinking inside of the housing though. How much heatsinking would be required by 2 cree xr-e q5's being powered by a dynamo? I mean how do I know how big of a heatsink I need to attach?

I'm thinking just making a housing on my own will end up being easier, but I want to make it round. I just don't think square lights look right. I feel like lights should be round.

Very cool bike! What's with those silver colored bulges on the frame tubes?

I'd estimate that 4 square inches of 1/16" aluminum is a good ballpark to shoot for. This assumes a very good thermal path from the LEDs to the aluminum. I've got a battery powered 3 watt light that has a heatsink that's about 1.5" by 1.5" (might be smaller), and it gets distinctly hot when the bike is stopped.

There have been folks who've fitted LEDs and optics into short sections of copper or aluminum tubing. Still pretty interesting to look at, but you get good thermal properties. A secondary benefit is that copper and aluminum are easier to machine or cut.

The silver colored bulges on my bike are the S&S couplers. This is where the frame comes apart to allow it to be packed into a small case for traveling.
http://www.sandsmachine.com/

regards,
Steve K.
 
Very cool bike!

+1 Though OT, seconding the poster is an exception, I believe.

Another question I have is about mounting it in the housing. I see a lot of people mounting their leds on pieces of aluminum. Where do I get pieces of aluminum for this purpose and how would I go about mounting it inside my vintage light housing?

Here, home improvement and hardware stores usually have a display by a company supplying various metals in different thicknesses, angles, tubes dimensions, etc. Aluminum has a better weight to heat transfer and conductivity for this purpose. Copper stores more heat per volume but is heavy and though it is 60% better in conductivity its air transfer isn't as good. It is best used where heat transfer is the most important: from the LED to the radiating surface. Some DIYers work at companies that have aluminum waste and get their metal gratis.

Heat sink is a misnomer in a way. It is better thought of as a thermal radiator transfering the heat of the LED to the air. So if you seal it away from the breezes inside the light with no connection to a metal body, it won't help keep the LED cool for long. Also remember that air is an insulator so every metal-metal contact should mate well and have thermal compound filling any gaps. Thermal compound isn't as good as steel, even, but it is MUCH better than air. Chromed steel is a poor radiative surface compared to aluminum on area basis, but if big in area like in a classic light, the sheer area trumps the abilty to radiate.

Steve mentioned about 4 square inches of heat sink for a 3 watt light, and that is about right for aluminum. I run 7.5 using copper to get the heat to the aluminum with 10 watts. At half power and standing it is warm same as it is at full power, rolling and air cooled. So 1 square inch per watt or a bit more would be nice and 0.75 inch to 1 square inch per watt is close to a lower limit. The slower you ride the more area you will need.

Heat needs a thermal path from the LED to the radiative surface. When the LED is mounted on a bulkhead or firewall, it is recommended that the aluminum be 1/8" thick. Thicker if the path is long aas it will be in a large classic light.

Please tell me if my plan is stupid and will not work :). Here is a picture of the light housing.

I have a soft spot for Raleigh bikes. I will own one or more again.

You plan is possible. It may take a fair amount of work, time money and thought -more than most would be willing to do. But it's your bike, so stupid isn't a factor, if you like it.
 
BrianMc: Thank you so much for all the info and advice. It really helps me clear up some of the things I wasn't sure about.

I was at a hardware store this afternoon and they had a number of pieces of aluminum "angle iron". Would it be ridiculous to cut pieces out of it in staggered sizes, attach them with some epoxy and mount the leds to it? The staggered sizes purpose being to have more surface area. Or would the heat transfer between each piece not be good enough?

Money is one thing I don't want to spend a lot of on this. Time, I'm ok with. So if it turns out to be too expensive maybe I'll nix the idea or just stretch it out.
 
EVERY junction in the thermal path adds resistance relative to a solid piece of metal. It can be minimized by lapping (polishing the faces to be joined) and using thermal paste or thermal epoxy. My experience says the lapping is only worthwhile right behind the MCPCB and its interface and the effect is small to tiny IF the surfaces are reasonably flat and smooth to start with. Sanding to 200 grit to 400 grit may give most of the effect of going to 800 and beyond. The larger the area of air interface per watt and wider the thermal path to it, the less critical this is. Larger = heavier, so bike lights tend to push the lower limits, so lapping helps. Bottom line: a single larger area chunk of aluminum with fins built in is better and less work than a smaller area assemblage.

If you are OK with a non-classic backside to the light (and it sounds like you are), then you can use a conventional heat sink meant for a CPUs. This sort of thing, without the fan. Some are even round. Make sure the fins aren't too close because you won't have a fan and have to depend on convection and some air flow from riding. The body of the light will interfere with air flow, so I'd up the area needed to at least 2 square inches per watt for 6-8 square inches. The one pictured looks fine for fin spacing. Mine is 2.5" (~6.3 cm) square with finning it has almost 50 square inches and can run 10 watts all day at room temp with no heat buildup. So you could cut such a heatsink to be round to match the light and STILL have gobs of cooling surface and they aren't heavy enough to bother cutting to minimal size.

Someone reported they had luck getting these free at computer repair places because they upgraded the CPU/heatsink and have them lying around or have defunct PC's for recycling to steal them from. I had one from my own defunct PC that I used for an optics test bed. They are not expensive (<$5) new but it's greener to recycle.

Likely you are going to have one good focal point or a small range of good points. The LED could be mounted on threaded aluminum rod like Steve did, though that is a neat idea, I don't see a need to adjust it once you know the focal point and it sounds like threaded aluminum rod would be difficult for you to find. Usually if they have aluminum angle they have aluminum flat bar, but there may be a better option.

So a piece of aluminum or copper that projects it forward off what would be the flat backside of the heat sink would work to set the LED at the focal point. Some have used a polished flat US penny. For testing, you can use many thinner shims to get the thickess, because you won't run the light long. You will still need the heatsink, it just won't be used to its full in a 2 or 3 minute tests. I suppose you could cut aluminum can disks, and recycle them as usual when done. Once the thickness is determined with the aluminum shims or coins, make a single piece the thickness you want. If there are machine/ fabrication shops nearby, you might get a chunk of waste aluminum for free of for the salvage cost saving you buying a chunk of flat bar. Or you could work a chunk out of another free heat sink to do the job.

So what does the thermal path look like? You have the LED-MCPCB (you'll have to have, if you don't direct mount, and you don't need or want to go that route), MCPCB-shim, and shim-heatsink interfaces. That adds only one more interface to the usual and gets you focussed properly, a fair trade off especailly considering the overkill heatsink size.
 
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I didn't even think about CPU coolers. I think I might have 1 or 2 old ones laying around here somewhere. Thanks for the idea!

"You have the LED-MCPCB (you'll have to have, if you don't direct mount, and you don't need or want to go that route), MCPCB-shim, and shim-heatsink interfaces. That adds only one more interface to the usual and gets you focussed properly, a fair trade off especailly considering the overkill heatsink size."

You kind of lost me on this part. What is an LED-MCPCB? and a MCPCB-shim?

I'm still not sure how I could get a couple leds epoxied to a cpu cooler to look like a respectable bicycle light. I'm afraid it will end up looking hideous. haha. I guess I'll just dig up my cpu cooler and see what it looks like first, then start brainstorming how I could modify the looks.
 
CPU coolers... Thanks for the idea!

It isn't new but I could not rapidly locate the thread where I first saw them used in a bike light. It was a German cyclist.

"You have the LED-MCPCB (you'll have to have, if you don't direct mount, and you don't need or want to go that route), MCPCB-shim, and shim-heatsink interfaces. That adds only one more interface to the usual and gets you focussed properly, a fair trade off especailly considering the overkill heatsink size."

You kind of lost me on this part. What is an LED-MCPCB? and a MCPCB-shim?!

My bad. Acronyms are great once your'e familiar with the terms.

Let me back it up. I actually left out the greatest resistance in the thermal chain. The heat is created at the LED junction. So LED temperature limits talk of 'junction temperature'. The thermal resistance from the junction to the LED thermal pad is a feature of the LED and out of our control as buyers/users other than the recent LEDs have lower resistance and higher power capabilities as a result. I left it out because it is what it is for whatever LED you decide to use.

The next resistance is from the LED pad to the Metal Core Printed Circuit Board or MCPCB. These are often 'stars' of 20 mm or so size and are six sided with cutouts at the apexes for wire access, screws and optics alignment posts. They can be larger, smaller, square, or round, etc. On one side are the printed circuit and thermal pad in copper, with a mask often white covering all but the solder points (PCB). There is a layer below the copper to insulate it from the aluminum core (Metal Core). They can have one or more LEDs. The LED is soldered to the thermal pad and the + and - terminal pads. You have to electrically isolate the thermal pad in many LEDs from the negative, positive, or both. So it makes direct mounting of an LED to a heat sink a huge challenge for beginners and only worth it if you have a mess of heat to shed in a hurry like a 20 watt LED in a small flashlight. So most of us buy a 'star' or 'light engine' which is the LED premounted on its circuit board. The LED-MCPCB resistance can be affected by a poor solder job or poor MCPCB design, but a quality supplier like Cutter stands behind the products they sell. You can get 'cheaper' in both meanings of that term.

The Metal core comes in because that thermal pad needs to pass the heat and it needs to be spread out to aid transfer to the next part in the thermal path at that junction. Ideally, that would be the heatsink. But you are placing an LED in a reflector and will have to find the focal point or at least the place where the LED works best. I suggested a shim to project the LED into the light and have the big heatsink right behind. So you would have the interface between the LED and the MCPCB and another between the MCPCB and the shim (hence: the interfaces I labelled LED-MCPCB and a MCPCB-shim, these are not official technical terms but made up of the two parts either side of the junction, I picked that labeling method up somewhere).

Visit Cutter site and look up CREE XP-G and see how many MCPCB's you can get with one, 3 , 4, 5, 6, or even 7!

I'm still not sure how I could get a couple of LEDs epoxied to a cpu cooler to look like a respectable bicycle light. I'm afraid it will end up looking hideous. haha. I guess I'll just dig up my cpu cooler and see what it looks like first, then start brainstorming how I could modify the looks.

If you want to adhere to a completely stock look, you are likely going to have a hard time. If there is a lot of depth behind the reflector and before the back of the light, you might sneak the cpu cooler with a bit of trimming in there and only need to get air by it. One modder used a forward air scoop on top and a rearward one on the bottom to do just that. If care is taken that any water entering that way can't get to the electricals, that would work. If there isn't room instide for the hidden sink method, then if you are OK with it looking stock from the front but it can look a bit techy from the side and rear you have some flexibility with a heat sink on the back.

If you are VERY lucky the back of the headlight shell is aluminum and not chromed steel. That would allow a circular LED mounting disc often called a 'firewall' the diameter of the shell where you want the firewall to sit. Again, you would shim the LEDs into the reflector likely needing a bigger access hole than the former bulb needed. If the light has a high and low beam bulbs, you can use both and a second firewall for the second LED. There is another classic bike light thread here showing one that uses small mounting firewalls one for each LED using the reflector as a sink but not extending to the shell. That would be fine if you have an aluminum reflector and shell. An aluminum reflector and shell will conduct the heat all over themselves and finally to the air. Steel can't do that fast enough. So an aluminum shell means you don't need fins outside the headlight. (note: if you have a high/lo beam 2 LED light, care must be taken switching them on and off as pulse currents can blow the LED. That part of a design will need someone else's help.)

You likely have steel. If so, only you can decide how retro-techno you can stand. I decided against this route for my bike a 30 year bike in the same idiom as Steve's Powers bike, refitted as a 3 x 10 speed:



DIY lights that don't look DIY unless you stare into the front, up close. You can see why a generator hub would suit this bike. Note the small black bullet shaped light is from here. It's the second last item on the page. Another classic shape. They are $10 plus shipping. Aluminum with plastic end and mount piece. You can use a brake crown mount for the Schmidt lights or the handle bar quick release mount on the same page with the bullet light. Don't forget plastic mounting bolt, glass lens in case you can't lift the one off the bulb without breaking it, and anything else you think you'll need so you can save a double mailing.

I also used two for the tailights so you can see them from another couple of angles:



Hope this helps.
 
hey Brian, I like the Mercian! Very classic. I always wanted to get a frame from them with the barber pole stripe on the seat tube. Instead, I found a Hetchins Magnum Opus, which pretty much satisfies my desires for an ornate English bike.

Downtube shifters with a 10 speed cassette? Friction or indexed? As much as I like friction shifting, I think it would be difficult with a 10 speed cassette.

Getting back on topic.... as fun as it would be to retrofit LEDs into a chromed steel headlight, it's not a trivial task. I'd suggest that the OP wander around a hardware or household goods store, looking for aluminum containers or fixtures that could be adapted for use as a headlight housing. Jim G. built a nice little light from some square aluminum tubing:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimg/sets/72157614980513926/

I'm fond of round optics (i.e. the Ledil Rocket for the Cree XR-E), so I'd suggest some copper tubing, or round aluminum extrusion. I think these might be a lot less work than getting heat out of a steel headlight shell.

regards,
Steve K.
 
hey Brian, I like the Mercian! Very classic. ...Downtube shifters with a 10 speed cassette? Friction or indexed? As much as I like friction shifting, I think it would be difficult with a 10 speed cassette.

OT -Thanks on the bike. Could heve bought a third bike but I like this one updated a lot. Those are the legendary Suntour Cyclone friction shifters. Velo-Orange suggests they have something better, but certainly among the best friction shifters ever made. There is almost no cable slack in top gear in order to have enough cable movement to get the 29 engaged. A NOS Centaur Long cage Triple RD I bought in 2008, a new Centaur 13-29 10 speed cassette, and the Cyclone runs them like a dream. I have more trouble getting a single shift without needing trimming with the 1 x 9 Deore long cage, SRAM 11-34, and the Suntour stem changer.

Getting back on topic.... retrofit LEDs into a chromed steel headlight, ... not trivial task. I'd suggest...some copper tubing, or round aluminum extrusion. I think these might be a lot less work than getting heat out of a steel headlight shell.

regards,
Steve K .

Some "pipe lights': There was an aluminum one for the weight weenies, and a couple of ones using square aluminum tube. Two square tubes side by side is the Amoeba.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=580785&highlight=Culite

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=599511&highlight=Culite

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=5904561&postcount=2
This last is a single post suggesting if you REALLY want to keep the housing but actually see, mount a modern light in it obviously with sapce around it and an air flow exit. The lens and reflector would go too, this route so it would not look vintage from straight ahead. Still a lot of work.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=403337&highlight=Amoeba

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=632533&highlight=Amoeba

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=591762&highlight=Amoeba+generator

Search this site, too.

Have fun!
 
I was at a hardware store this afternoon and they had a number of pieces of aluminum "angle iron". Would it be ridiculous to cut pieces out of it in staggered sizes, attach them with some epoxy and mount the leds to it? The staggered sizes purpose being to have more surface area. Or would the heat transfer between each piece not be good enough?

I did something like this when I dropped a white LED into an old oil burning bike light. I used two bolts to compress the LED and layers of aluminum together. Might have put a little thermal grease at the interfaces too.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kurtsj00/sets/72157601245796627/

This light is running at low power.. 1 or 2 watts at most. It also sits on my computer table, functioning as a high power night light. Actually, this sort of bike light is much better suited to a LED conversion, as it already has air vents to allow cool air to enter the housing and a chimney to vent the hot air. Plus, it's just way cool!! :)

Steve K.
 
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