Vintage Motorcycle Lighting

[NMB]

Hello all,

I have been reading this forum for a little while now and there is real wealth of information, but I have been going round in circles for the past few weeks on a project and thought I would post to see if anyone could help.

I recently decided to complete redesign the electrical system on my 1962 Norton Dominator 650SS which I am currently rebuilding and try and produce something that would be reliable and modern.

So far I have chosen a battery, a Speedcell Superbike (140Amps continuous discharge, 240 amp spike, 14V, 4.6 Ah), and some, but not all of the ancillary items (i.e. ignition, horn etc.) and am now starting to think about the lighting.

The first question was what brightness would be sensible for a motorcycle head light and rear light? I was first working on 800 lumen for dipped from, 1200 lumen for high beam front, 40 lumen for rear and 400 lumen for the brake light. Would these seem like sensible figures?

The next question was what LEDs and what drivers? I was looking at an array of Luxeon IIIs for the front (I would suppose 10 to give 800 lumens at 3W and over volt them to 4.5W for high beam) and a smaller array of red Luxeon K2s for he read, but then would a Buckpuck 3023 (modified like this to give the dipped/high function, link) be up to the job? And how is best to wire them up to the driver?

Finally, how does all of this interact with the other electrical systems? A bit wide I know but I do not understand how voltage and current is distributed around the system, i.e. to the dash, horn, start etc.

Thank you for any help that some one can give and I more than happy to reward anyone who can give some clear answers or some consultancy.

Kind regards,

Nicholas

 

[-Virgil-]

You can't just throw together a workable LED headlamp. There are legal and technical requirements for the low and high beam distribution patterns and many other aspects of design and construction. There are LED headlamps on the market that will fit (or can be made to fit) your bike; none of them is the world's best headlamp, but both of them are legal and one of them is passably good.

 

[NMB]

I appreciate the complications involved in designing an automotive road use light and would welcome some information surrounding brightness requirements (max./min., front/rear, high/low) and distribution patterns (I am based in the UK as I know this information will be region specific).

From simply looking around on the web there are a number of cottage industry manufacturers, certainly of rear LED lighting solutions, for motorcycles (http://www.webbikeworld.com/t2/motorcycle-led-light/led-brake-light.htm, shows one example), and I do have some experience in both electrical and mechanical engineering so would like to think I stand half a chance.

Some indication as to what models of lamps you are referring to would be useful.

Kind regards,

Nicholas

 

[Alaric Darconville]

I appreciate the complications involved in designing an automotive road use light and would welcome some information surrounding brightness requirements

It's more than just raw lumens, it's how many candela in what region of the light at what distance from the light, beam width, and all that good stuff.

Familiarize yourself with the ECE regulations; these may cover it (but Scheinwerfermann knows far more than I and may issue corrections):

http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/r112r1e.pdf
http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/r098r2e.pdf
http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/r005r4e.pdf

Additionally, LEDs have specific thermal and electrical constraints that require substantial consideration, lest they go poof in the night, or just dim over time.

 

[-Virgil-]

I appreciate the complications involved in designing an automotive road use light and would welcome some information surrounding brightness requirements (max./min., front/rear, high/low) and distribution patterns (I am based in the UK as I know this information will be region specific).

It's a great deal more complicated than just "max/min, high/low". See previous posts here, here, and here.

Some indication as to what models of lamps you are referring to would be useful.

This one, which is available in left- or right-dip configuration. Manufacturer sellsheet is here. Definitely not cheap! Pretty good performance and beam focus/formation.

 

[mrb]

Sorry to say but your best bet really is to abandon the DIY LED headlight route and try and find an updated headlamp from a newer model motorcycle and try to fit that.
The task of creating your own headlight from leds which is compliant to regs/MOT is almost completely impossible.

Unfortunately it isn't just about typical lumens and hoping a similar lumen led array is adequate.
The spatial distribution of the light from a headlight is tightly defined and a self-made one is very very unlikely to safisty the requirements.

From what I've read during testing a headlight, readings are gathered at pre-defined heights and angles from the light to establish illumination levels.
This pdf is of such a photometric test for using a xenon discharge burner in a housing designed for a halogen bulb, not what you're asking I know, but it illustrates just how just changing nothing but the source of illumination completely destroys compliance of the headlight.

Only if your motorcycle is not going to be used on the public roads should you persevere with the DIY route. There are some compliant LED headights around which you could try and fit, space etc permitting, but they really are quite thin on the ground and ones for left side traffic i.e UK are even thinner. Though Scheinwerfermann has found one. Ouch at the price!

 

[-Virgil-]

It's more than just raw lumens, it's how many candela in what region of the light at what distance from the light, beam width, and all that good stuff.

...sharpness and shape of the cutoff, intensity ratios at various test points and zones, resistance to vibration, resistance to entry of dust and water, other mechanical-robustness tests, lens material coating and resistance to abrasion and UV damage...homemade headlamps just are not feasible. This is a case, original poster, of your just plain not realizing how complex a headlamp is -- even an apparently simple one like a basic H4 halogen unit. I urge you to buy and read the two books described here before you spend any money, time, or effort trying to make your own lights.

Additionally, LEDs have specific thermal and electrical constraints that require substantial consideration, lest they go poof in the night, or just dim over time.

Yes, and it's not just "with time", either. Those LED motorcycle brake lights the original poster linked to don't appear to have any kind of thermal management at all. Not only is it key to emitter health in the long run, but also to performance on a moment-by-moment basis. Cold emitters produce a lot more light. Hot emitters produce a lot less light. The effect of emitter temperature on output isn't small, it's large, so large that without extensive heat sinking and temperature-monitoring control circuitry, an LED vehicle lamp that performs acceptably when first switched on at room temperature is basically guaranteed to lose so much intensity with its own heat that it'll be performing unsafely within a couple of minutes. That same device, switched on during cold weather, can be expected not to perform acceptably right from the start.

Even properly-engineered, type-approved, reputable-brand LED vehicle lamps with effective heat management and temperature-sensitive control circuitry change intensity with emitter temperature. As I type this, I've got a data chart in front of me from a test of this lamp, made by one of North America's foremost producers of commercial-vehicle lighting devices. This data chart in front of me plots the intensity of the brake light function over ten minutes of operation. At t=5min, they're down to 87% of initial intensity. At t=10min, they're down to 82% of initial intensity. Again, this is with an enormous mount of money and talent and technique and expertise having been put into making these devices work as they're required to, not only for compliance with the regulations but for actual on-road real-world safety performance.

I fear the more you learn about the topic, the more you'll come to realize that no, you really don't have anywhere near half a chance of winding up with an acceptable result in your home workshop or garage. The difference between now and then is that you don't yet realize the full extent of what constitutes an acceptable result.

 

[John_Galt]

Scheinwerfermann... Those LED headlights you linked to are amazing (ly expensive).

I would love to know what type of LED's they use, and drivers. Also, it doesn't appear they have a whole lot of heat-sinking, though looks can be deceiving. Do you know of anyone who would have beamshots?

I had an uncle in a similar situation awhile back. He had a vintage brass acetylene headlight, but wanted something that was ok to use on the street, if he were to ever be caught away from home. I've been looking at some different options, but the easiest thing I can think of is a small HID or bi-xenon projector, and hiding the electronics.

 

[-Virgil-]

Scheinwerfermann... Those LED headlights you linked to are amazing (ly expensive).

Uh-huh!

I would love to know what type of LED's they use, and drivers. Also, it doesn't appear they have a whole lot of heat-sinking, though looks can be deceiving. Do you know of anyone who would have beamshots?

Working on getting that kind of info. The whole (finned die-cast aluminum) housing is the heat sink. There's a fan inside to take heat off the junctions and put it on the backside of the lens for defrosting.

 

[Bandgap]

I wish you well Nicholas

If you are thinking about lighting with leds, all lights except the dip beam are technically fairly straight forward.

However, you will be risking it legally
- this includes your insurance company washing their hands of you should they find out after an accident.

And to do a good job, you have a lot of engineering ahead of you.
Its is easy to make leds light that are very bright, but dazzle people, overheat, and break.
Only a handful of automotive industry suppliers are making all-led headlamps. It has been too hard (expensive) for all of the others.
http://www.electronicsweekly.com/Ar...5/led-headlights-beam-beyond-premium-cars.htm

Unless you really know what you are doing, don't go LED, especially in the dip beam which is by far the most challenging technically.

Why not stick with conventional lights?

If you want a headlight with stunning performance....
For several years Honda did a standard-looking light for the CB600F with some very fancy optics inside - take a look here http://www.mahonkin.com/headlight-harness/599/
I put one on my old bike and can tel you it is great headlight.
You have to use the Honda headlamp shell as well.

If you want good lights, pay a lot of attention to the quality of the loom and switches. I eventually used relays (the new slim type) and thicker wire to cut voltage drops.

If you are doing a 6V to 12V conversion, I have had good experiences with voltage regulators from Boyer Bransden http://www.boyerbransden.com/PBdynamo.html

If the bike is only for shows, and not for the road, go led.
Otherwise, and I am sorry to put a damper on this, my advice is to stay with light bulbs.

Good luck

Steve (in London)

Ps, Beware of led-based 'replacement' bulbs. There may be some good ones, but many are too dim or badly heatsunk.

 

[NMB]

Thank you all for the interesting and valuable input.

I appreciate the complications involved (I lived with an electrical engineer for a few years who I still see regularly, and we seem to always get into an esoteric conversation on LEDs therefore have covered efficiency fall off with heat) and the book that Scheinwerfermann looks invaluable. I understand it is not worth much nowadays, but I do have a degree in mechanical engineering with a side module in automotive engineering so do comprehend the level of work involved in this sort of project.

The main reason for my interest in going LED is so that I can make the lighting installation virtually invisible on the bike thereby maintaining a fresh from the track look while still being usable at night and fully road legal. A compact array hidden under the seat for rear and brake lighting and a front unit hidden in the fly screen or fairing it the perfect combination.

Thank you Alaric Darconville for linking to the UNECE documentation. That is exactly what I was initially looking for to allow me to better understand some of the specifications involved.

I have to say I am very impressed by the J.W. Speaker 8700 and, although rather expensive, may fit the bill if I can at least cover up the black areas at the front or possible paint it as I would like to fit it inside a fly screen with a racing numeral possibly painted on the front. I will get in contact with the manufacturer to find out more.

Steve, I have used the Boyer ignitions on a number of occasions and have been impressed with their customer service so will be using it again for this project. I know need to find a viable, compact and lightweight alternator to charge the battery. Also if you are based in London and have an interest in bikes drop me a PM.

Hopefully I will be able to find a few more off the shelf solutions that fall in spec otherwise I will have to take a look to see if this in commercially viable if I am to spend much more time on it.

Thank you again.

Nicholas

 

[Bandgap]

Sound like you know what you are talking about.

Apart from the dip beam, you could do it all with off-the-shelf parts.

The power converter are trivial - several companies make high-quality parts.

I know of no commercial optics to make a good dip - although there is a post somewhere that shows that with projector optics you can get a good horizontal cut-off (the tricky bit) from anything, including a phone screen.

Even with a 1mm die LED, you are still going to need an optic about 40mm wide to produce a dip beam, and you will need several of these to get the intensity.

If you could design and make them, dip beam optics might be saleable things

Steve