Wabeco lathe and alternatives...

[tino_ale]

Hi all,

The more time passes, the more I just can't get used to the idea of not having a lathe. Having ideas but no mean to accomplish them is just plain frustrating Not only about flashlights, but many other little parts that I would like to make.

Anyway, here is the website for these Wabeco machines : http://www.wabeco-remscheid.de/

They are distributed in the US by MDA precision , haven't found them in France yet, but they are made in Germany so I guess it should be doable...

These machines are expensive. Too expensive some may say in regards to their size... but they seem to offer precision and quality works from a very small (bench top) form factor. This has a price apparently!

I personnally can't keep a big machine. I may very well end up using my lathe in a reserved room of an appartment. :huh: I don't need it to be small to the point where I would move it alone, or put it back in a shelf when not in use... (I'm not looking for a micro lathe) But I needs to be no more than 250 lbs or so... movable by 3 people.

Of course I'm considering cheaper lathe too, like the LM 8x14 which sounds like the best cheap chinese out there.

My problem is that to my little knowledge, there is nothing between a chinese 8x14 and these german refined machines. Keep in mind the form factor. There is a huge gap in both price and built quality.

I got a couple of question, if someone can help :

- Do you think the D2000/D4000 are large enough to comfortably work on up to 2D mag (exterior work only) and D mag heads. They have about 13" between centers.
- How do you think the D2000 compare to the D4000? The D2000 have tubes instead of prismatic bed, I don't how good this system is? and how well it will remain precise over time? Besides, the price difference is not that huge... Would it be wise to choose the D4000 instead?

the important question :
- Do you know any other brand/model of reasonable sized lathe which offer better overall quality than the chinese, but cheaper than the german? Talking new machine here...

The LM 8x14 and the Wabeco machines sound like completely different offer, yet I have the dilema of which one to get. I've seen the cheap one can do amazing things, but I really need a hassle-free machine, more or less ready out of the box, and RELIABLE. Also I would like to machine parts that are not easy on the lathe : Titanium and stainless steel.

Cheap chinese or nice german... the german is tempting but I need to keep some funds for the tooling :duh2::ironic: .

Any help is appreciated
Thanks for reading!

 

[tino_ale]

Forgot to add : I'd be very happy if the machine was rigid/powerfull enough to remove reasonnable layer of metal during the rough passes... 0,040 sounds good but can they do that much on hard metals?

 

[PhotonFanatic]

Forgot to add : I'd be very happy if the machine was rigid/powerfull enough to remove reasonnable layer of metal during the rough passes... 0,040 sounds good but can they do that much on hard metals?

I would suggest buying a good used Wabeco, if you can find one, or a Schaublin, or other precision lathe. Buy the biggest one that you can.

As for cutting Titanium and stainless steel, I have a fairly small lathe made by Wahli, a Swiss manufacturer, but it is much larger than an 8X14 and weighs 800 pounds, and when I am turning Ti or SS, I usually only remove a maximum of .15mm per pass, or .006", so I really think you would be pushing an 8x14 to remove .04" per pass.

But maybe I'm a wuss and don't want to break my tooling or lathe.

 

[tino_ale]

I doubt a Schaublin would be cheaper even compared to a brand new Wabeco, unless it is seriously worn out! I don't have the mean to make a chinese much better than stock (I read here and there it's doable with some little work), I don't have the mean either (not mentionning the "how to") to refusbish an old lathe :sick2:

May I ask how deep to you cut into aluminium (rough cuts) with your lathe ?

For Titanium, unless using lot's of coolant you don't want to cut too hard -> risk of ignition

 

[Anglepoise]

It might be a good idea to think long and hard as to just what you want to do with your lathe.

In my experience, sometimes features can be more important than 'brand'.

For example. Spindle bore through hole diameter. This dimension, along with the chuck, will decide the thickness that can be gripped. Yes a 3" chuck can grip a 3" piece of metal. But if you want to bore a through hole in your 3" x 12" piece of metal, then it has to slide through the chuck and up the spindle bore. In this exaggerated example, the spindle bore would have to be over 3" in diameter. Yes there are ways to do it on a small lathe, but if you are going to be moding and making 1" Flashlights, then you will want to be able to slide a 12" length of stock up the spindle with an inch protruding to work on.

Also between center dimensions don't take into consideration the tooling that will fit in the tail stock, ( example ball bearing center or drill chuck ) and the distance taken up by the chuck. This can drastically reduce the 'actual working range' over the dimensions advertised by the manufacturer.

These small 'bench top' lathes and their owners put out some marvelous work and I in no way want to cast dispersions on them . The research and questions you are asking now will help you make the right decision so you don't get too many 'surprises' down the road. Good luck....

 

[tino_ale]

Thanks for the heads up about the spindle bore. I have paid attention to that, and on the Wabeco it seems that you have 20mm "only" but optionnaly get 30mm which is good for 1" stock. On the LatheMaster you have less than 1". Is this bore a feature of the lathe itself, or a feature of the chuck? In which case changing the chuck can do the trick.

As to what I want to be able to do :
- built a 18650 1"OD flashlight from scratch Al, up to Ti or SS
- make C/D mags heatsink
- work on D mags bodies and tubes for exterior work

Also between center dimensions don't take into consideration the tooling that will fit in the tail stock, ( example ball bearing center or drill chuck ) and the distance taken up by the chuck.

WOW THAT'S something I needed to know! Do you know the approx lenght I should remove from maker's numbers to get the real usable lenght for exterior work? (guess I need to remove the lenght of the chuck+live center?)

In the Wabeco line of product, there is an important difference it seems : the tube slides machines have independant electronic drive for chuck and feed, whereas the V-bed machines have a more conventionnal mechanical engine.

Keep writing your thoughts I still have a lot to learn
cheers!

 

[TranquillityBase]

Maybe a really small, inexpensive machine is a good starting point....FWIW, my lathe was mostly idle for the first few years of ownership. I really wanted one, but I didn't know how to run a lathe, other than the basics, and the tooling is a $$$ 'black hole' The cost of the machine is insignificant compared to the tooling.

At the very least, with a small machine, you can determine if you really like making parts on a lathe, and resale should be quite easy, due to the low overall weight of a small lathe.

Spindle bore, and overall weight were my two main considerations...If I buy another lathe, it will be bigger.

 

[fa__]

Hello
About chinese machine tuning, you can read this
http://www.cambouis.com/bidouille/bidouille.htm
(french should'nt be a problem )

 

[PhotonFanatic]

. . . May I ask how deep to you cut into aluminium (rough cuts) with your lathe ?

For Titanium, unless using lot's of coolant you don't want to cut too hard -> risk of ignition

On AL, the deepest that I go when turning is .5mm, probably could crank up the speed and do at least 1mm, but why bother? I'm not in that much of a rush.

I've only had Ti catch fire once, a small piece, nothing serious. You can back off when you start to see sparks. Honestly, I've learned to just take my time with Ti and slow down the RPMs.

As for lathe recommendations, without naming more names, I would suggest that for what you want to do, i.e., work on Mag bodies, that a bed at least 18-20" long might be needed. I second TB and anglepoise in that bigger is better, within one's budget of course. There is a steep learning curve with the lathe, so getting a cheap, small lathe and beating up on that makes more sense than doing it on a precision lathe. :devil:

Not rubbing it in, or bragging in any manner, but I've spent as much on one carbide bar, toolholder, as some might spend on a 7X12 lathe, so ultimately the tooling cost for top quality tools is going to make a serious dent in your wallet.

 

[TranquillityBase]

I personnally can't keep a big machine. I may very well end up using my lathe in a reserved room of an appartment. :huh: I don't need it to be small to the point where I would move it alone, or put it back in a shelf when not in use... (I'm not looking for a micro lathe) But I needs to be no more than 250 lbs or so... movable by 3 people.

This is key tino...If the machine is going to be used in 'living space', forget lubes, and coolant...Oils and water based coolants will present an undesirable odor, everything will stink, including all your clothing, bedding etc.

I use no flowing coolant, and very little oil (mostly for threading only) Ti will dry cut fine, I rough .200" per pass, without oil or coolant.....Drilling Ti solid stock is a different story...I use air pressure to cool the part, and my drill sharpener is in constant use. Drilling generates the most heat, and will really cause a stink, with any oil, or coolant.

Aluminum doesn't dry cut well, unless you're taking very light cuts, and even then it will eat tooling...WD40 is your friend for aluminum.

 

[will]

tooling - I have not spent a lot, I grind my 5/16 tool steel bits. I made a boring bar from a 5/16 hex wrench. I did buy parting tools and a carbide threading tool for inside threading. I use kerosene for cutting aluminum. Any cutting oil is going to smoke a bit from the hot chips that can come off. Also - you have to be concerned about drops of oil flying off into walls and on the floor. I only work with aluminum and wood on my mini lathe. To be honest - you can spend a lot on tools, but, you really don't have to. IF you are going to work with steel or Ti - then you need to get carbide tool bits.

 

[tino_ale]

As for tools, since I don't have a grinder (and would like to keep it that way if viable) I have been first thinking of using carbide tools with these holders and disposable inserts. I need to check the price of those hope they are not

At the very least, with a small machine, you can determine if you really like making parts on a lathe, and resale should be quite easy, due to the low overall weight of a small lathe.

Very true and that's part of my dilema. The point is : even a "cheap" machine with tooling (not cheap) is already too expensive for me to just "give it a try". I intend to keep that machine, whatever it is, for a long long time and learn seriously enough to operate it to fullfill my creative needs . Now is there a possibilité for me to hate turning? I guess it's a possibility. To the point a can't even make the small parts I want here and there? Maybe possible but I doubt it. At most, I may end up using it less than I thought but it should not be worthless either.

There is a steep learning curve with the lathe, so getting a cheap, small lathe and beating up on that makes more sense than doing it on a precision lathe.

Yes I'm considering that too. Maybe I should put it that way : how likely is it that a beginner damage/spoil a precision lathe because of screwups? It is realistic to think that, with reasonnable care, I will not damage a nice lathe during my learning process? Or is it going to happen sooner or later (damage it to some extend? what extend more specificly??

That's a big part of my thinking. Because if it's more or less garanteed that sooner of later I will crash the lathe badly (to the point of making some serious damage on the lathe itself) I perfer to crash a "cheap" lathe, learn, re-crash and learn more, and when I'm decent in what I do, get a nicer machine.

Only thing is generally speaking I'm not a "buy cheap first then resale and buy another better one later" guy. I've always prefered to get the better one I can afford, as a long term investiment, and keep it. Now if there is a real valid reason not to do this (damage it is a valid reason for sure) I can reconsider of course.

One thing is that the 8x12 LatheMaster needs gear change for changing spindle speed. That sucks I think. Also the spindle bore is not even 1" and that sucks too.

Does anyone know the answer to this question "Is the spindle bore a feature of the lathe itself, or a feature of the spindle? In which case changing it can do the trick."

Thanks for all the advise :thumbsup:

 

[tino_ale]

Ti will dry cut fine, I rough .200" per pass, without oil or coolant.....

Wait, you rough 5mm per pass on Ti oo: That's a typo right?

 

[Anglepoise]

Does anyone know the answer to this question "Is the spindle bore a feature of the lathe itself, or a feature of the spindle? In which case changing it can do the trick."

Large lathes manufacturers often offer a couple of choices in spindle internal bore. You then match up your chuck bore size to the spindle.

With smaller lathes, the manufacterer does all these calculations for you and usually just offers one combination. However do NOT presume anything in todays world of 'marketing rules everything'.

 

[gadget_lover]

The spindle bore is the opening that goes the length of the hollow spindle upon which the check is mounted. To pass a 1 inch bar through the spindle you need a chuck with > 1 inch hole in the middle and a spindle with > 1 inch bore.

External work on a 2D mag can be done with small lathes. Boring long lights usually requires that the light is mounted so most of it is in the spindle bore so you can have room to move the carriage upon which the tool is mounted.

Can you dislike turning metal? Sure. It's exacting work, though not physically demanding. It's messy work, with chips and coolant flying off at high speed. Work with cast iron and yo get black dust everywhere. Work with steel and you have razor sharp chips embedded in your shoes and tracked around the house. It's quite possible to spend several hours making a light, only to accidently ruin it by cutting something too deep or too far.

Can you ruin it? Sort of. You can break gears, burn out motors and gouge the bed. You can break tools, run the compound into the jaws of the chuck, over tighten all sorts of things.

It's a very good idea to try something cheap before buying a mid-class bench lathe. Cheapest way is using one at a school or someone elses shop. A small lathe will NOT be the same as a bigger one, since it generally means taking lighter cuts, so tasks take a bit longer. If you enjoy using a small one you WILL enjoy the big one.


Dan

 

[TranquillityBase]

Wait, you rough 5mm per pass on Ti oo: That's a typo right?

No typo tino, .200" is not a problem for most machines in the 220 volt, 2hp range...Unfortunately my lathe has a single drive belt, so I go through a lot of belts.

The crash-and-damage thought is horse poop...Use your head, and you will not damage your machine while learning (damage tooling, yes...but I doubt you will damage the machine)...If you have the mechanical ability to run the lathe, you will have the knowledge and confidence to repair it, if you truly damage something.

 

[will]

The crash-and-damage thought is horse poop...Use your head, and you will not damage your machine while learning (damage tooling, yes...but I doubt you will damage the machine)....

I agree - most likely a tool will break before the lathe.


OK - a bit of a safety note here. These machines have a lot of power, Think about how much force is required to break a tool. I suggest that anyone new to using any machine take full note of safety issues involved.

 

[frisco]

The one i've heard about most over the years for both mill and lathe is....... gloves! Never wear gloves. So tempting to flick some chips away and the glove (hand/arm) get wrapped around real fast.

The thing I'm gonna have to get used to is taking off my neck carry/lanyard before working on the machines.

Years ago when I bought my full size mill, I hired the head instructor at the local Junior college. The first thing I asked the instructor to go over was "How do people get hurt on these things"

frisco

 

[tino_ale]

Yep, no gloves, no large clothes, no watch, no jewelry...

It looks doable to learn from forums/books but there are still some stuff that are hard to know without direct teaching from someone who will watch you and correct you. The first that come in mind : how hard should I tighten the chuck? Someone teaching you will show you, make you feel and check your tightening. In 1 min time, you know. From books, it may not be clear. "You should tighten hard" ok, so how hard is "hard"? That was just a dumb example I know...

 

[frisco]

Yah.... Back when I bought my mill (Brand spanking new right off the floor at a San Jose Machine Show) there was no internet and the biggest machine I had was a drill press. I figured 2-3 hundred dollars @ $25 per hour for private lessons was just an added cost to the machine so I wouldn't kill myself!

frisco