Weapon light discussion, (loosely) related topics welcome

kerneldrop

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The accuracy goes way before the fire
Even if the barrel maintained straightness — which it won't — those bullets were tumbling and flinging.
 

Monocrom

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....If it is a given that they just won't seek defensive training, then I think we could conclude they would benefit from training that gets them moving, handling the gun from the holster, under pressure from time constraint etc. I know it depends a lot on what sort of competition, who is putting it on and what level of effort is put into "winning the game". But one good aspect of competitive shooting is it tends to get people out and practicing more, even if the events themselves become the practice. When most people "take a class", they may progress to another level or two, but they tend to consider themselves trained and go long periods without using the skills they learned.
There's a difference between a gun-owner who purchased for home defense or CCW purposes being lazy vs. those who will actively seek out training. Lazy is across the board. Those individuals simply aren't going to be lazy in seeking out schools that teach defensive use of a firearm.... But then somehow be very active in fully participating in Shooting Spots events/Competitions? The lazy gun-owners are fully committed to being lazy. Again, the ones I have to help to "unlearn" certain skills are the ones who are very active! They were very active when they participated in Shooting Sports. And, they're the ones most active in participating in defensive use of a firearm.

As far as different aspects of pistol-craft, we teach all of that. And more. An individual carrying a very small 380 ACP pistol in a concealed groin holster is not going to learn proper presentation of a handgun from a holster, for his needs, by participating in Shooting Sports events. That particular individual made it clear that while legal for him to do so, in the setting that he worked at, his legally-carried handgun would get him not only fired from his position; but ostracized from finding work in his state if it was ever accidentally seen/discovered. He had no qualms about defending his Life if necessary. But didn't want to lose his position for any other reason. (Lest you think that's a one-off example, I've had numerous students who needed to carry in less traditional body positions for their needs. Yes, that includes bra-holsters for certain female students. Regading fitment, obviously I referred those students to one of our two female instructors for help.) And, I've already covered the bad habit of breaking cover to move onto a perceived better position or "station." No help from Shooting Sports in those examples.

And again, it's not like the old days. It's not just shooting ranges or competitive shooting sports as literally the only options. Good schools are not that far away from individuals willing to learn. The vast majority of the American population owns a car. Set a bit of time aside (perhaps a 3-day weekend) travel to the defensive shooting school near you, learn, be back in time for work on Tuesday. Afterwards, regular visits to the nearest shooting range near where one lives to practice shot placement.

I do emphasize to my students that continued education at a proper school is an absolute MUST! Doesn't have to be with us. But needs to happen. I drill that into them. Afterwards, up to them if they listen or not. There's only so much you can do as an Instructor.
Speaking of "muscle memory", I'd like to throw out a scary story from a concealed carry citizen and hear your take on it first:

Our guy drops his GF for a quick errand and waits in the car, not relocking it when she leaves (root problem). A dirt bag, we'll call him DB opens the passenger door and drops in the seat with a handgun pointed at our guy. Our guy manages to unholster his Glock 20 from his hip and points it at DB. This is obviously a SHOOT scenario. Neither one shoots, and DB panics and gets out and is gone. Our guy is obviously amped up, but baffled as to why his gun did not discharge as he thought he was pressing hard enough to almost break his trigger finger. The problem? He instinctively drew his gun with his trigger finger extended along the frame of the pistol, and never moved it inside the trigger guard.

I will share my thoughts a little later.
Where to begin? Following mistakes....
One, should have re-locked the doors.
Two, he was clearly in Condition White. (Had he been in Condition Yellow, he would have seen the scumbag approaching his car, and been ready in case he tried anything.)
Three, he immediately reached for his weapon while the scumbag already had his out. (9 times out of 10, great way to get killed while sitting in your car. Dude got lucky! Plain and simple. Clearly the perp. wanted to rob him, not kill him. This goes back to the equation I posted above T.=D.=T.)
Four, horrendously horrible training habits! It takes approximately 5,000 repetitions minimum to develop muscle memory. So just imagine how often he was practicing drawing from a holster, pointing his index finger along the gun's frame, but never actually touching the trigger. Not pulling it immediately. But just touching it to determine if the situation is one where it needed to be pulled or not.

Now, it's going to take a minimum of 15,000 repetitions for his body to re-learn the proper way to present a pistol against a potential threat.
 

RWT1405

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Iraqveteran8888 did a mag dump test until a S&W M&P 15 Sport II melted down and caught on fire. Cool video.
Thanks for sharing!

Being a Smith & Wesson guy, and owning 2 of the Sport II's, I was impressed with his results

Everyone knows that when it comes to AR's, 10 = 1 and 1 = none, so you need to own at least 20

That's my story and I'm sticking with it!
 

Monocrom

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We really need a way to differentiate actions and decisions made by dumb people from not-so-dumb people.
And then look at the analyses of correct decisions made by not-so-dumb-but-not-defensive-school-trained people versus "defensive school" trained folks.
If you want to make a specific point, I'll be happy to consider it and reply. Right now, no clue what you're on about.
 

orbital

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...Everyone knows that when it comes to AR's, 10 = 1 and 1 = none, so you need to own at least 20
+

What are your calibers, if I may ask.
Was actually looking at a 6.8 recently, then dropped the idea
 

kerneldrop

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What are your calibers, if I may ask.
Was actually looking at a 6.8 recently, then dropped the idea

I'm assuming you dropped the .277 and moved to a suppressed 8.6 Blackout, which is the correct thing to do.
Seriously though, all the AR spin-offs are based on achieving ballistic-specific goals.
 
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orbital

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I'm assuming you dropped the .277 and moved to a suppressed 8.6 Blackout, which is the correct thing to do.
Seriously though, all the AR spin-offs are based on achieving ballistic-specific goals.
+

The 6.8 SPC ammo is just too expensive, period.

.. for that general size & energy, rather have an AK
 

Monocrom

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Saw your self-deleted comment. Now the issue is clear. For some odd reason, you seem to believe I was saying that defensive shooting schools are just better than Sports Shooting competitions when compared side-by-side. And, clearly THAT ticked you off. Thing is, I never said that.

If someone showed up at the school where I volunteer at, looking to win prestigious shooting trophies through hard work and dedication.... I'd be the first to tell him that this school is the worst place for him to spend his money.

It's not about one being better than the other. It's about one being far more appropriate than the other, depending on what a potential student is looking for. Right tool for the right job.

Friend asks you to help him move a couple states away with all his possessions, including his furniture, by renting a vehicle for him. You agree. So you return later with a rented 2023 Mitsubishi Mirage hatch-back (currently the smallest car for sale in America), instead of a large U-Haul Box truck. Then, when your friend tries explaining the differences between the two; and how they're not the same.... You get ticked off at him. Same as you got ticked off at me. See the issue? Yes, both are vehicles, both have four tires, both have engines, etc.

But clearly one is better than the other for daily commuting. The other one is better for moving across state lines with all your stuff. One is better depending on the circumstances. Do you get it now? It's not about whose more intelligent and who'd you want to have by your side during a shooting situation. Not about, this one is just automatically better than the other one. It was never about that. No clue why you believe it was. This is the best I can do in hopefully clarifying the situation.
 

kerneldrop

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The 6.8 SPC ammo is just too expensive, period.

.. for that general size & energy, rather have an AK

Yea, the folks it was designed for don't buy their own ammo. haha
All these cartridge choices really just buy you energy at distance.
It's tough to fit those slender higher BC bullets in a magazine, so that will always be a limitation, but prob not a big deal.
It's fun to have choices...and you can just about wildcat anything these days in the AR as long as you can make a BCG bolt face that fits in the AR10 and AR-15 uppers. It may not make sense or cents, but it can be done.

Hog hunters have greatly benefited from the high energy AR cartridges out now.
 

kerneldrop

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Same as you got ticked off at me. See the issue? Yes, both are vehicles, both have four tires, both have engines, etc.

I'm definitely not ticked off. I'm glad you offer a service to folks seeking out your services.
Wish I lived closer b\c I'd take your course just to see what it was about.
I'm certainly not mad...we have our own biasness and beliefs, and neither will change from forum interaction.
 

Monocrom

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I'm definitely not ticked off. I'm glad you offer a service to folks seeking out your services.
Wish I lived closer b\c I'd take your course just to see what it was about.
I'm certainly not mad...we have our own biasness and beliefs, and neither will change from forum interaction.
That last part is unfortunate. Hopefully various forum members can share their Life experiences together, learn, and grow. Just wanted to clear up an unfortunate misunderstanding. Seems I achieved that goal. Thank you for letting me know you are not personally upset with me. I do genuinely appreciate that.
 

Hondo

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There's a difference between a gun-owner who purchased for home defense or CCW purposes being lazy vs. those who will actively seek out training. Lazy is across the board. Those individuals simply aren't going to be lazy in seeking out schools that teach defensive use of a firearm.... But then somehow be very active in fully participating in Shooting Spots events/Competitions? The lazy gun-owners are fully committed to being lazy. Again, the ones I have to help to "unlearn" certain skills are the ones who are very active! They were very active when they participated in Shooting Sports. And, they're the ones most active in participating in defensive use of a firearm.


Where to begin? Following mistakes....
One, should have re-locked the doors.
Two, he was clearly in Condition White. (Had he been in Condition Yellow, he would have seen the scumbag approaching his car, and been ready in case he tried anything.)
Three, he immediately reached for his weapon while the scumbag already had his out. (9 times out of 10, great way to get killed while sitting in your car. Dude got lucky! Plain and simple. Clearly the perp. wanted to rob him, not kill him. This goes back to the equation I posted above T.=D.=T.)
Four, horrendously horrible training habits! It takes approximately 5,000 repetitions minimum to develop muscle memory. So just imagine how often he was practicing drawing from a holster, pointing his index finger along the gun's frame, but never actually touching the trigger. Not pulling it immediately. But just touching it to determine if the situation is one where it needed to be pulled or not.

Now, it's going to take a minimum of 15,000 repetitions for his body to re-learn the proper way to present a pistol against a potential threat.
This! This is gold, now you are changing my mind. Yes, lazy is lazy, and if we have the motivation to participate in competitive sports, we've got what it takes to seek out and take advantage of defensive specific training. The unfortunate part is, if we also want to compete, that activity is in competition with the muscle memory we want to ingrain for real world situations, which leads into my scenario below.

(The scenario is already quoted in post #164, I won't repeat it again)

Couldn't agree more with your remarks. I also said he should be dead, as he put the perp in a shoot-or-be-shot situation, when he did not have the time to draw. But the training implications are sticky, as so many of us are downright militant about "keeping that booger hook out of the trigger guard". Indeed, it is one of the four main safety points, but is qualified with "UNTIL YOU ARE READY TO SHOOT". When drawing into what has already been determined to be a SHOOT situation, we need that finger going to the trigger as we are presenting the weapon. If we train "safe" most of the time where we practice our draw, and keep the trigger finger up on the frame, we are right back to my first scenario of the officer that drew, shot twice and holstered, then got shot dead. Our training can kill us.

So my bigger question is what should he have done different? My take is that if you don't train more in what you REALLY want to do in a real life scenario than you do to be "safe", or maybe I should say "politically correct", you will fall victim to your own muscle memory (you use a very believable 3 times the repetitions of the training to un-train). I think there are two solutions to follow. First, at the range we should be practicing from a draw, to the FIRE position with our finger on the trigger, and of course on the range we would then indeed FIRE. Since we tend to get a lot of our practice (I do at least) doing dry weapon draw drills at home, we can be in a safe location with safe direction to point, no ammo in the vicinity, and practice those draws as we do on the range, only with a dry fire to complete. Safety is always important, but when we uncase our gun, or remove it to unload or whatever, we can and should take our time and focus on all four main safety points. We should not be operating predominantly under "muscle memory" in calm, routine situations, the brain must be engaged. In short, training to draw into a fire condition, that is with the finger on the trigger, does not have to be mutually exclusive to safe firearm handling.
 

IMA SOL MAN

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Aw, but it was a ton of fun watching him after he trenched the hood of his truck using it for a rest for his rifle!

Second IMHO to the "I effing shot myself!" dude.
I saw the second, never saw Sootch trench the hood. Can you post the link to the vid? I would actually watch that Sootch video, or at least the hood damage part. :crackup:
 

Hondo

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I saw the second, never saw Sootch trench the hood. Can you post the link to the vid? I would actually watch that Sootch video, or at least the hood damage part. :crackup:
This one is from another creator, so just the part you want with none of the other fluff:



I'm pretty sure it happened in the spring of 2016, and I actually looked at his 7-8 year old vids, and I'm pretty sure it was this rifle, the CMMG MK47 "Mutant Hybrid". But I can't find a video of it with the trenching incident, so it may not have made the edit, but somehow made it onto the interwebs, or he left it in at first, and re-uploaded an edited version later.

 

orbital

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Being a 10mm fan, looked at a CMMG Banshee more than once.
Expensive, yes, but it's a short barrel AR in 10mm


edit: add pic

1701986867284.jpeg
 
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