Weird RCR123A problem???

[Tarlach]

Well today I recieved my first, new generation LED torch and batteries from DX. I got a MX SSC P4 and some RCR123's. I charged the batteries and they stopped at 4.15V (I assume this is good).

The weird problem I have is with the first battery I tried. The light seems to dim and bluish after about 30 seconds. I got a bit panicky and turned it off. I tried it again later with the same result. On instant restrike the light goes back to full white brightness :thinking:

I tried another battery and it seems to be fine, even after a few minutes.

Is my battery no good? It doesn't seem to keep getting dimmer after the first drop in brightness, it might be constant (I'm just not happy leaving it on for ages). Is it just putting out less current under load, as it's a cheap battery?

I just don't want to find out how much fun lithium pyrotechnics can be :sick2:

I also don't want to kill my new torch, as I really like it. I think I am hooked and I'll be buying a lot more, now that I see how good new torches are! :twothumbs

 

[knot]

You are over driving it with rechargeable batteries. Only CR123 batteries work.

 

[Tarlach]

...but I have the same batteries that are shown on the torch product page and one works fine?

 

[matrixshaman]

I'm running 900ma RCR123's in mine (same exact light) with no problem. These are the protected Batterystation yellow label batteries. Try running a primary in it to see what happens as it may be nothing to do with the battery. Try cleaning the contacts and the threads and lubing the threads. I've found the switch is fairly touchy on mine - after I turn it on if it barely rest my finger on it then it will dim or go off. Give it a good click and release when you turn it on and keep your finger off the switch after that. See if that helps. If not unscrew the head from the switch section (not sealed at all) and see if there is anything in there that needs cleaning or repositioning - I think I had to bend a spring in mine a bit as it was off center. And welcome to CPF!

 

[Tarlach]

It doesn't seem to be the torch at all, as the other battery works perfectly. I did have a connection issue at first, as the batteries were a bit short (I'll get protected's next time), but I just padded the spring with some alfoil and it works great now.

It's only one battery, out of the two I tried, that causes the weirdness...

I guess I just want to know if it is safe to use, or should I avoid using it as it can go ?

 

[knot]

MX Power 3W SSC P4 1xCR123A Flashlight
$16.37

do you see anywhere where it says it's ok to run RCR123? The result of over driving or poor heat sinking the SSC is TURNING BLUE from what I've read in the forums.

 

[Tarlach]

do you see anywhere where it says it's ok to run RCR123?

On the QCG site

And on the DX product page it has the RCR123 shown in the pictures with the torch???

 

[knot]

On the QCG site

And on the DX product page it has the RCR123 shown in the pictures with the torch???

When in doubt, it's always best to ask rather than try. Maybe the DX is a different batch. I don't know but it says, "1xCR123A" on the DX site and reading the forums here says the SSC will turn blue. Do the math.

I wouldn't use an RCR unless the ad specifically says, "Powered by 1xCR123A or 1xRCR123A (3.0V/3.6V)" such as: http://dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5438

 

[VidPro]

I wouldn't use an RCR unless the ad specifically says,

and even then they might have tested it for a shorter period of time than you will use it for.
some of the (lets call them) items that have said (in various places) that they can use a li-ion, run pretty darn hot with the 4volts, and some of them were going direct drive.

only metering this stuff on a power supply would tell for sure, and even then the light may run to "hot" for great longevity.
most of this stuff has enough internal resistance, or driver leeway to cover it from a complete immediate destruction of the led.
and some of it you should only use intermittantally when it gets sooo hot.

also it depends on the batteries ability to pump out the Direct drive current, when its too hot. the light then becomes regulated not by the curcuit, but by how well the battery can keep up with the load.

combine a great li-ion battery, with a load of BS on a web page, with a great connection, and you end up with a dead light.

sometimes , what they say will run on li-ion, will, but not completly to specs anymore.

 

[knot]

Yeah my 602D runs really hot and very bright so I don't run it long (unless I'm walking around outside with it). I think perhaps running a primary or regulated 3v rechargeable would be best for it. I want to ask you something though - I noticed that with the "DX" unprotected rcr123 runs low the light appears to switch to a lower level rather than a gradual decline in brightness. I think this light is direct drive isn't it?

 

[VidPro]

Yeah my 602D runs really hot and very bright so I don't run it long (unless I'm walking around outside with it). I think perhaps running a primary or regulated 3v rechargeable would be best for it. I want to ask you something though - I noticed that with the "DX" unprotected rcr123 runs low the light appears to switch to a lower level rather than a gradual decline in brightness. I think this light is direct drive isn't it?

you mean it Fell into regulation, when the li-ion got to the voltage, that the light becomes actually regulated
i am not sure, but mabey that was it?

it probably cannot be a direct drive Light, because at 3V it would be to low for the VF of even the cree led to be driven hard.

there are charts around here for all the leds, and in summary, all of the leds driven at 1amp the LED is at a Vf of ABOUT 3.6v , now i wish i knew where the chart was. i think they were at about 3.3 at 1W or 350ma.
so most lights running a single 3V, would have to have Some boost.

then there are specific TYPES of curcuits, that use specific parts, and because of the parts used themselves, they are designed to work with 3.6v and down. (even though people will say they can handle 4Volts) and testing of very few things, shows that after 3.6v, the curcuit has stopped adjusting current correctally. that type of curcuit is common (or common for the cheap crud i buy)

OOPS: i added this.
they go into a Sort of direct drive, when they go over the voltage.

 

[knot]

you mean it Fell into regulation, when the li-ion got to the voltage, that the light becomes actually regulated
i am not sure, but mabey that was it?

it probably cannot be direct drive, because at 3V it would be to low for the VF of even the cree led to be driven hard.

It's this light. A lot of people have it: Ultrafire Cree XR-E WF-602D

 

[VidPro]

It's this light. A lot of people have it: Ultrafire Cree XR-E WF-602D

i already looked, i was following that other thread.
there is nothing on the web site that is any help. ( i have seen DX improperly list a light as 3.6v capable, mabey it is, but not 4V

"When using 3.6 cells, you lose the modes ( I don't really care) and it gets quite warm. ( I do care)"

this guy indicates that it falls out of regulation, into direct drive. it not changing modes is often (but not always) a indication that the curcuit is out of spec.

then some reviews later, sombody says it only HAS one mode ?

 

[VidPro]

i corrected a post 2 up.

because i am confusing between the light BEING a Boost curcuit driver, meaning it is not Normally direct drive. the light itself would normally be a boost curcuit.
but falls OUT of regulation, and becomes direct drive acting, when the voltage is to high.

that should fix the confusion i caused.

 

[knot]

i already looked, i was following that other thread.
there is nothing on the web site that is any help. ( i have seen DX improperly list a light as 3.6v capable, mabey it is, but not 4V

"When using 3.6 cells, you lose the modes ( I don't really care) and it gets quite warm. ( I do care)"

this guy indicates that it falls out of regulation, into direct drive. it not changing modes is often (but not always) a indication that the curcuit is out of spec.

then some reviews later, sombody says it only HAS one mode ?

Yeah, that one review didn't make sense. Ultrafire doesn't even list that light on their site: http://www.newexcite.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=7

 

[knot]

i corrected a post 2 up.

because i am confusing between the light BEING a Boost curcuit driver, meaning it is not Normally direct drive. the light itself would normally be a boost curcuit.
but falls OUT of regulation, and becomes direct drive acting, when the voltage is to high.

that should fix the confusion i caused.

Still confused.

 

[knot]

i corrected a post 2 up.

because i am confusing between the light BEING a Boost curcuit driver, meaning it is not Normally direct drive. the light itself would normally be a boost curcuit.
but falls OUT of regulation, and becomes direct drive acting, when the voltage is to high.

that should fix the confusion i caused.

According to Kai's site it's direct drive: https://www.kaidomain.com/WEBUI/ProductDetail.aspx?TranID=1767

 

[VidPro]

According to Kai's site it's direct drive: https://www.kaidomain.com/WEBUI/ProductDetail.aspx?TranID=1767

ok mabey it is, a graph of it would show a long running decline when the battery went lower. also a graph of a unregulated (3.6v vrses 3.0v) rechargable would show specific different results.

 

[knot]

ok mabey it is, a graph of it would show a long running decline when the battery went lower. also a graph of a unregulated (3.6v vrses 3.0v) rechargable would show specific different results.

If it is direct drive, is it healthy to subject it to 4.2 volts - or rather whatever the voltage is under load? What I see using a worn battery is a definite bright to instant (looks like switched) lower level - not a gradual decline in brightness. Perhaps that's just the battery at rest recovering and then switched on with only enough power for a momentary burst but then losing it's current. Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[VidPro]

If it is direct drive, is it healthy to subject it to 4.2 volts - or rather whatever the voltage is under load? What I see using a worn battery is a definite bright to instant (looks like switched) lower level - not a gradual decline in brightness. Perhaps that's just the battery at rest recovering and then switched on with only enough power for a momentary burst but then losing it's current. Yeah, that makes sense.

yup makes no sence. a burst up or down could also come from a weak connection somewhere, the spring contacts or threads, usually that stuff would change back and forth, not be relative to the battery voltage.

direct drive or not, lots of this stuff is overdriven at the 4.2v, or lets say 4.0v under load. if use is intermittant, then the led wont overheat badly, and it will work for a long time.
if you wanted VERY long reliable use of the light, then i (myself) wouldnt use a li-ion that wasnt toned down. or i would mod the thing, with a resister. I Usually mod something specifically TO use li-ions, long before they claimed things could use them.

Things to avoid when overdriving, is leaving the light on without your hand on it removing the heat. using it when its 140* out of a hot car, or 105* outside. Which it isnt usually dark then so doing a runtime test, with the light just sitting there heating, and overdriving , is avoided.

if it was direct drive li-ion with a strong 18650, about 2 amps can hit the led, with a 14500 about 1.75amps, with the little 123s about 1.5amps, and with 10400s mabey 1amp max. all of which can vary hugely depending on the brand of cell, as seen by silverfoxes discharge charts.