What Happened To All The 123 Explosions?

[Gene]

I noticed awhile back that CR123 cells were exploding with almost weekly frequency here on CPF. I'm sure Newbie's posts helped to quell some of them with all his warnings of the dangers using them. However, you would think there would still be a couple now and then since a lot of us are still using multiple new cells without checking their voltage or condition without using expensive instruments.

I'm curious since the explosions were a very common occurrence just a few months ago. I haven't noticed a single explosion since all the reports that had folks in panic selling off their multiple celled 123 lights in droves just a little while back.

I'm not playing down the explosions, (I read of a few with lap tops using Li-Ions), but it's kind of weird that they've all suddenly stopped and folks are again enjoying their multiple 123 celled lights again.

Should we still be scared? I'm kidding but really, I'd like to know.

 

[elgarak]

They were not common occurrences, and that the threads about them vanished is sign of this.

They were isolated instances, and people jumped on a bandwagon.

There were a lot of threads, but only very few real occurrences.

It's importance was blown out of proportions by people re-reporting the very few events.

 

[Sigman]

Though our own awareness of mismatched cells has increased (and I'm not saying that's why we've not heard of more incidents)...I can't help but wonder if it was really a problem, why we didn't hear more of it from the "rest of the world"? :thinking:

 

[cutlerylover]

It could still be happening but no one is posting about it? Either way with soooooo many of these cells being used by soooo mnay of us all the time, even a dozen explosions a month would still be a very low percentage of accidents...I think they were isolated incidents that happened at the same time thats all...Im sure it will happen again, the questions is when? Hopefully not for a long time...and hopefully no one gets hurt!

 

[Gene]

Exactly but I'm sure some will jump onboard here and remind us again why we should still be terrified and that's not to say to take this subject lightly.

It's just truly amazing how all those explosions that were a common experience just a short while ago but have abrubtly subsided. I'm sure it's because of all the warnings here that we've had from all the experts. With all the newbies aboard here though, it's confusing why there hasn't been a least one explosion but I'm sure someone will tell us of another experience and why we should still be scared.

I hope I haven't started another rash of explosion experiences with this thread and if I have, I apologize.

By the way, unprotected Li-Ion cells were supposed to be an accident waiting to happen. I've been using them for a couple of years and they seem to be safe as can be. I'm even wearing one around my neck in a Orb Raw. I use it and use it and it rarely needs a charge and I check it once a month. Somehow unprotected Li-Ions are great as they don't continually lose their charge as protected cells do.

 

[DM51]

One of the points NewBie made in his excellent thread on this subject was that these incidents are extremely rare - something like one incident per 10,000 users in their entire lifetimes, IIRC. And those incidents were all due to badly mismatched cells. There were NO cases involving single-cell lights.

Given the number of people who until recently weren't even aware of the potential dangers of mismatched cells, a lot of mismatching probably went on routinely, and even then there were very few incidents.

More recently, there was the publicity about computer battery explosions and maybe this made people wonder a bit more about battery safety; then someone reported the first instance of a flashlight-related vent-with-flame incident. Then there were one or two "it happened to me too" cases reported here on CPF.

It seems most likely that these cases, rare as they were to start with, have become even more rare due to increasing general awareness of the potential problem, and that can only be a good thing.

 

[flashlightpoor]

I for one learned from reading all of the threads not to mix new and old 123s . not that i did it intentionally, but I kept of drawer of used 123s that weren't powering my M3 HOLA very well and put them in my other lights, not anymore.
so that's at least one pocket explosion avoided.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Gene,

One of the big reasons we are not seeing more problems is because it is winter.

Heat is an important ingredient in the recipe for "rapid venting with flame."

Tom

 

[LED61]

I see a lot of skeptics in this thread. The last battery incident I saw in CPF involved a battery explosion inside a drawer. The person reporting showed pictures after the explosion. The military has had explosions in Lithium batteries as well and is documented and pictured. So I don't think it is all FUD.

 

[DM51]

I see a lot of skeptics in this thread.

I hope I didn't sound like a sceptic - I'm not at all. I was simply making the point that these incidents are very rare. That is certainly not the same thing as saying we can relax and forget about the problem, because when something like this does occur it is extremely nasty. I for one will continue to be very careful.

 

[Mike Painter]

I hope I didn't sound like a sceptic - I'm not at all. I was simply making the point that these incidents are very rare. That is certainly not the same thing as saying we can relax and forget about the problem, because when something like this does occur it is extremely nasty. I for one will continue to be very careful.

If you are *not* a sceptic, then you are very likely to accept at face value anything you see, hear, or read. Science is sceptical at it's very core.

I have a pepetual motion machine for sale that you might be interested in and a little white pill which will help you, sleep, loose weight, gain weight, stay in shape, overcome thirst,...

(To get in good shape you take the pill on a brisk five mile walk five times a week...)

 

[LED61]

I for one will continue to be very careful.

I think that´s a wise attitude DM51. Even manufacturers admit it is strictly a numbers thing, meaning incidents will of course continue to be isolated and very rare and with a special recipe like SilverFox has said many times before. One duracell engineer once told me over the phone they never had a lithium 123 explode, still all manufacturers contemplate a risk of explosion in the warning labels. It´s good to always be aware and excersice caution.

 

[Art Vandelay]

This is a great article about exploding 123A batteries from FlashlightReviews.com. It is the most useful thing I have read about this topic. It includes: Could it happen to me?, Why does it happen?, How do I prevent it from happening?, an experiment, a conclusion, and links to more information.
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/features/123burst.htm

This is a more general article about risk and fear. From the article, "We pride ourselves on being the only species that understands the concept of risk, yet we have a confounding habit of worrying about mere possibilities while ignoring probabilities, building barricades against perceived dangers while leaving ourselves exposed to real ones."
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1562978,00.html

 

[chevrofreak]

My sister sent me an e-mail a few days ago and said that one of the dead SF123's she had in her bag made a *pop* sound and emitted a strange smell.

It was dead, but it wasn't actually in a device. She said there were no external signs that anything had happened, but the cell smelled funny.

I really have no idea why she was carrying dead cells around after I had given her new ones.

 

[elgarak]

As other's have said, being skeptic is not a bad thing. Some people have wrong impressions about it.

Back on topic. I'm not saying that explosions/"venting with flames" events cannot happen. I'm saying that there were far less events than what people think. The amount of posts blew up the assumed number of events.

All events I know of happened due to carelessness, nearly always because of ignorance, and often paired with cockiness, intentionally doing things that constitute misuse (by disbelieving/ignoring/unawareness of warnings).

Unfortunately, most other battery chemistries can take a lot of sloppiness without bad effects. The Lithium chemistries are by now coming more and more into the hands of people who are sloppy, and/or becoming sloppy to save on money. What we should do is raise awareness of proper handling, and not inducing panic (which some threads are doing, though mostly by posters unaware of their impact).

I firmly believe that I never experienced an "explosive" event because I always was anal about handling batteries, regardless of battery chemistry.

 

[greenLED]

I feel compelled to mention that "skeptic" is not the same as "contrarian".

I'm with DM51 on this one.


chev, short against something else in her bag?

 

[Gene]

Wonderful responses by all but I'm still asking why there has not been AT LEAST a couple more explosions since this panic began and we went through the latter part of last summer without one? I know it's colder now but should we still be terrified? Should we still sell off our multiple celled 123 lights in droves?

I knew some of us would get the "skeptic" part of the equation but really we are not skeptics just wondering why "the explosions" have subsided?

I admit Newbie is a genius, (I'm sure), and he is now lauded as the "CPF Member Of The Year". I remember when he came aboard and was branded as argumentive and at the very least, "the most argumentive" member here!

Yes, I'm going to be a skeptic here and say that Newbies threads and posts have been at the least, the MOST incoherent threads I've ever read here! His photography has been excellent but his explainations have been like reading why Al Gore's reasons for global warnings is why we should be scared! I sometimes think when things are incoherant to the masses, we accept them as gospel.

Newbie knows how to talk without complication to us regular folks and explain things, (do a search and check out his posts), but he can "talk" to the gods like Don and others when he wants to and they buy it. Of course they NEVER institute his ideas in their lights.

Listen, I really am not slamming Newbie or others here but coherency would be nice!

I'll say it again, why hasn't there been more explosions especially since we were warned there would be many more?

 

[elgarak]

Wonderful responses by all but I'm still asking why there has not been AT LEAST a couple more explosions since this panic began and we went through the latter part of last summer without one? I know it's colder now but should we still be terrified? Should we still sell off our multiple celled 123 lights in droves?

Ah. Well. It should be noted that the events that sparked the last boom of threads did not happen at around the same time. One event happened, older events (some a year or so before) were pulled out, and all pushed together.

The main point is that the panicking and terrifying was overblown. You should not be terrified.

Have respect for the inherent danger of Lithiums cells (and other batteries -- Alkalines can produce hydrogen, for instance), and treat them accordingly.

Maybe the warnings given had the effect that now more people are aware of possible mistreats and avoid them. Maybe it was just one bad batch of cells that is now gone.

It may happen again. But they are random events. They can happen anytime. You cannot predict them. And you cannot say that we are 'overdue' for another one.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Gene,

I'm sorry, I think I misread your initial post. Let me try again…

I noticed awhile back that CR123 cells were exploding with almost weekly frequency here on CPF. I'm sure Newbie's posts helped to quell some of them with all his warnings of the dangers using them. However, you would think there would still be a couple now and then since a lot of us are still using multiple new cells without checking their voltage or condition without using expensive instruments.

I'm curious since the explosions were a very common occurrence just a few months ago. I haven't noticed a single explosion since all the reports that had folks in panic selling off their multiple celled 123 lights in droves just a little while back.

To my knowledge, there have only been less than 10 incidents (if memory serves me correctly) involving CR123 cells. I can only recall 7 of them, but there may have been a few more.

We came up with the theory that the cells must have been mismatched to get this to happen. NewBie decided to put this theory to the test and refined the "recipe" for getting a CR123 made in China cell to rapidly vent with flame. The "weekly frequency" of cells exploding was the results of his controlled testing.

It may have seemed like a "common occurrence," because he did a lot of tests and supplied video documentation along with his temperature and voltage results. He was conducting the tests outside, because of the fumes released during failure, and when the ambient temperature dropped, he was unable to get them to go off. However, it is not very common at all.

Some of the conclusions from his tests indicate:

Off brand cells are more prone to this problem. He was unable to get any of the name brand cells to fail under the same conditions that the other cells failed at.

Cells need to be mismatched by around 15%.

A lot of the incidents occurred after the lamp went off while the circuit was still connected.

A continuous run is needed to heat the cells up to the proper temperature to sustain the failure.

Roughly a 1C current was needed to get the cells to warm up enough to fail.

Warm ambient conditions were also needed to get the cells to fail.

Cells in the open don't fail. They need to be contained in an enclosure of some type to keep the cell temperatures up.

ZTS matched cells did not fail, however some new cells that were ZTS mismatched also did not fail.

Multi cell LED lights do not have a safety problem with mismatched cells.

Single cell lights do not have a safety problem.

On top of this, a bad batch of Titanium CR123 cells was discovered, and BatteryStation started doing ZTS testing on all of their cells. The Titanium cells were pulled from stock. Since BatteryStation started ZTS testing all of the cells, and a new batch of Titanium cells is now being shipped, there have been no further "incidents," but it is also a lot cooler than it was in the middle of last summer.

Add to this the raised "awareness" that it is possible that something could possibly go wrong and a few simple steps on how to avoid problems and we expect problems to go away.

Wonderful responses by all but I'm still asking why there has not been AT LEAST a couple more explosions since this panic began and we went through the latter part of last summer without one? I know it's colder now but should we still be terrified? Should we still sell off our multiple celled 123 lights in droves?

I was unaware of any "panic." I would suggest that if you are prone to panic, you should panic about driving your car. Using your flashlight is most likely "safer" than driving…

Tom

 

[Beamhead]

Cells in the open don't fail. They need to be contained in an enclosure of some type to keep the cell temperatures up.

Tom

Silverfox spot on post with only this minor oversight, Newbie was testing cells in the open and getting the failures. Well on a board inside a bucket.

Now my 2 cents, I have known since my first battery/cell powered toy that mixing cells of different manufacturer/discharge rate/chemistry is not wise. It is in the manual or instructions of 95% of anything that requires cells.
Even Alkalines can pop though not as dramatically.

So common sense is the ticket. There was a brief concern about some lithium cr123's coming new out of the box mismatched but IIRC that was minimal and corrected.