Why CR123

[Albinoni]

Why did they introduce the CR123 type battery for torches and what was/is the purpose of it. I can understand the need of this kind of battery in a camera because really these are camera batts, but why did they introduce torches to take these kind of batts when you can get AA/AAA's for torches and would do the job just as good.

Does CR123 have any advantages over AA/AAA's, also you can't get Eneloops in the CR123 either. Do they last longer and have a longer run time over AA/AAA's.

 

[VidPro]

i always thought it was the other way around. the cell existed, so it was applied.
the "PHOTO" 123 battery had come out for cameras many many years ago, and was a most excellent power source for one reason, it was a LITHIUM cell and it could do a reasonable output on demand. it also had the 3volts without using 2 pieces. i had a "compact" digital camera that used them , long before i saw a flashlight that used them, they were expencive $7USD and hard to get hold of then too.

power for weight and the small size , its excellent.
because you can now get Lithium AAs they are great too, if your device can handle the slight extra voltage.

there is about 3+ Watts in that little 123 thing
about 1/2 a watt in a alkie AA when driven hard 1.5W when driven more normally
about 2.5 watts in a high cap ni-mhy AA
about 3.5 watts in a lithium AA (like energyser e2)
* depending on brand and discharge rate of course (info loosly averaged off of the discharge charts, that show practical discharge rates as opposed to some specs stuff)

weightwise the lithium weighs about 40% less than the ni-mhy or alkaline
temperature range of lithium , handles cold (slightly) better than either.

 

[Albinoni]

i always thought it was the other way around.
the "PHOTO" 123 battery had come out for cameras many many years ago, and was a most excellent power source for one reason, it was a LITHIUM cell and it could do a reasonable output on demand. it also had the 3volts without using 2 pieces. i had a "compact" digital camera that used them , long before i saw a flashlight that used them, they were expencive and hard to get hold of then too.

power for weight and the small size , its excellent.
because you can now get Lithium AAs they are great too, if your device can handle the slight extra voltage.

Ok, now I might be buying another MX Power Lego torch. Basically these so called "Lego" torches are ones that can be used either with AA or 1xCR123 type battery. For eg with the MX Power while completed it will run on 2x AA's, but remove the centre portion of the body and reassemble the bottom and top portion than it becomes smaller and all you use in 1x CR123 battery.

The other question here is I've read on this forum that using Lithiums really is not reccomend for LED torches as they can cause damage to the LED, but if CR123's are Litihium type batts and this MX Power torch will accept CR123's plus even quite a few Fenixes and others so doesnt this mean using a Lithium such as the CR123 can cause damage ?

Here's my post on flashlights that convert:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=185589

 

[mossyoak]

because a long time ago, a company "laser products" designed a light for police use that used two 123 lithium cells, to be bright enough for law enforcement use and small, the lithium cells were the only thing that could supply the power, they changed their name to "surefire" which youve probably never heard of, and they became the light all other bright lights are compared to, and they used the 123 lithium in all their lights across the board, and other companies started designing lights around that cell, since surefire did it. and thats why all the really good lights today are powered by 123 lithium cells.

 

[kaien]

There was not the "Litihium type batts" damage the led, is the "rechargeable Litihium type batts without protect" may cause some damage.

CR123 is quit safe for using in Flashlight.

 

[VidPro]

The other question here is I've read on this forum that using Lithiums really is not reccomend for LED torches as they can cause damage to the LED.

some AA lights , and AAA lights will overdrive with the slightly higher voltage of the lithium AA and AAA cells, especially the ones that were direct drive and dependant on the alkaline cell being weak.

any light designed for the 123 was designed for a 123, and will work with the 123 great.
but MANY of them do overdrive with the higher voltage RCR123 li-ion rechargable, which is much higher voltage. usually its the single cell 123 lights that will overdrive with a full-charged RCR123. A RCR is li-ion rechargable not Lithium primary.

 

[mdocod]

but why did they introduce torches to take these kind of batts when you can get AA/AAA's for torches and would do the job just as good.

because if this statement is incorrect, then you have your answer.

 

[ltiu]

AA/AAA lights are NOT as good as CR123 lights. CR123 lights are brighter than their AA/AAA counterparts. Advantage is still CR123.

 

[Albinoni]

History.

Once upon a time, AA/AAA batteries were no where near as powerful as CR123 Lithium batteries. Maybe now they are but history has inertia.

Ok but do you define power. Eg 1x CR123 = 3 Volts and 2XAA also = 3 Volts

 

[ltiu]

Ok but do you define power. Eg 1x CR123 = 3 Volts and 2XAA also = 3 Volts

Not a fair comparison. You should compare "1x" AA to "1x" CR123.

Also, 2x AA are bigger and heavier than 1x CR123. You end up with a bigger heavier flashlight using 2x AA.

If you are using 2x L91 to have the same voltage as 1x CR123, then you pay double since 1x L91 is about the same price as 1x CR123.

 

[Albinoni]

In general will 1x CR123 battery last longer than 2xAA's thought both give out 3 volts ?

 

[ltiu]

In general will 1x CR123 battery last longer than 2xAA's thought both give out 3 volts ?

I would say the 2x AA will last longer since they have more mass and more "juice", so to speak. Since you are comparing 2x AA to 1x CR123, not a fair comparison.

Again, your 2x AA flashlight will be bigger and heavier to carry all that extra juice compared to a 1x CR123.

We do have flashlights out there that have 1x AA that can put out as much light as a flashlight with 1x CR123A. These 1x AA lights typically have boost circuitry, it boosts 1x AA voltage from 1.5v to 3v. The issue here is cost. Adding the boost circuitry to the flashlight increases the cost of the flashlight, compared to one that uses CR123 without a boost circuit.

But then someone figured out: Hey, if we add a boost circuit to a flashlight with a CR123A, then that would make things even brighter!

So in terms of brightness, CR123 has an advantage over AA.

In terms of size and weight to voltage, CR123 has an advantage.

In terms of "amount of juice". They are about equal:

1x AA is 1.5v x 3000 mAh = 4.5 watts = 1x CR123 is 3v x 1500 mAh = 4.5 watts.

 

[Oddjob]

Even though both give 3v, 2xAA batteries have more mAh than 1xCR123 therefore the 2xAA's will give you a little longer runtime IIRC.

 

[moldyoldy]

In my experience with Fenix and Inova flashlights, 1x CR123 lasts longer than 2x AA alkaline, and is brighter. In my experience with flashlights since a kid running around a dark house in a storm - power failures were very routine in my memory, almost weekly - I am trending very strongly towards a CR123 or RCR123 system rather than a 1x AA system. Although the "safe" Lithium phosphate chemistry has too short of run time, the regular Li-Ion in either 3v or 3.7v persuasion does run longer than a 1 or 2 cell Ni-Mh flashlight with a generally a higher lumen output. For example, 2x AA Ni-Mh cells is maybe 2.5V under load. A CR123 is 3.something under load. Higher voltage equals a brighter light.

I also appreciate the noticeably smaller size of the CR123 lights, be they 1 or 2 cells and for more light than an equivalent number of cells in a Ni-Mh flashlight. I have simply become used to the CR123 systems that result in flashlights smaller than a same-cell-count Ni-Mh system for a brighter light. For example, a 2 cell AA flashlight has become unacceptably long for me. I gave away all of my 2x AA lights. The longest light I carry any more is a P3D-Q5 which is truly impressive for the size/lumens combination. My nephew and I compared his collection of Maglites with a P3D-Q5 at New Years on his hobby farm. Suffice to say that my P3D-Q5 did not come back to my house with me.

actually, a 1x CR123 P1D-Q5 puts out almost the same light as a 2x AA L2D-Q5 light. Check out the Fenix website - I may be having a senior moment.... I do carry a P1D-Q5 on my keychain, and an L0D-Q4, and a P3D-Q5 in my winter coat pocket.

If I want weight, like enough weight for a club or to make a car window disappear in a hurry, then the 2-3 cell Maglight is still king, w/ or w/o the LED drop-ins. However a Maglight is not an EDC light. My girls have maglites in their cars, but otherwise they carry a single cell light in their purses or pockets.

 

[MikeLip]

Both the CR123 and the AA have approximately the same stored energy. BUT the CR123 can give up it's energy much faster. You can't discharge a AA very hard before it's voltage starts to sag. You can do that to a CR123.

Think of it this way. You have two buckets of water. Both are the same size, so hold the same amount of water. Label one bucket AA, the other CR123. Put a 1/2 inch diameter hole in the bottom of the AA bucket, and a 2 inch diameter hole in the bottom of the CR123 bucket. You can get the water (energy) out of the CR123 bucket a lot faster, therefore the water can do more work in a given time. (you electronics geeks will see the fallacy here, since the pressures - voltages - will be the same at the bottoms. But I am simplifying outrageously. You could make the CR123 bucket twice as tall, but reduce it's diameter so that the volume is the same as the AA bucket if that makes you happy). Note that the work done will be the same, it's just the the bigger hole lets you do it faster, but for a shorter time.

If you want a bright light, you have to drive it hard. To drive it hard, you need a lot of current (water). You can do two things; use a single battery that can supply the current, or use a bunch of batteries which, taken together, can supply the current. If you want a very bright light you can actually carry, a CR123 or other type with a "big hole" in it will let you run that light. To get the same discharge rate as a single CR123, you'd probably need at least 6 AAs.

 

[Albinoni]

Ok, so are we also saying that a CR123 can work under load/pressure than that of a AA or AAA and do it better ?

Say for eg if I wanted to leave my torch on for 15 mins or say 10 mins flat, so will a CR123 perform better than a AA or AAA in this case ?

 

[Marduke]

AA now has the advantage.
Apples to apples, 1xAA vs. 1xCR123 has 3.5 watt hours vs. 3.0 watt hours

And properly designed AA lights have a huge advantage in versatility. They can take AA lithium primaries, AA NiMH, plain old alkalines in a pinch (which is the most common battery available across the world), and some can even use 14500's for that extra punch.

Modern regulation and circuitry has made the CR123 vs AA battle rather moot. You can get the same performance out of either, so I choose the cheaper, safer, and more versatile solution.

 

[MikeLip]

Ok, so are we also saying that a CR123 can work under load/pressure than that of a AA or AAA and do it better ?

Say for eg if I wanted to leave my torch on for 15 mins or say 10 mins flat, so will a CR123 perform better than a AA or AAA in this case ?

Depends on the load! The whole point of the treatise is that you have to pick your power source to suit what you are doing. If your light is drawing 6W, a single CR123 can do that for a little while. A single AA can't. If you are drawing 1/4W, both can do it for about the same time. Of course, you can add AAs and get 6W out, but then you lose the size advantage. So, do you want a big honking heavy light with a 5W emitter driven at 5W, or do you want a nice pocketable one?

 

[MikeLip]

AA now has the advantage.
Apples to apples, 1xAA vs. 1xCR123 has 3.5 watt hours vs. 3.0 watt hours

And properly designed AA lights have a huge advantage in versatility. They can take AA lithium primaries, AA NiMH, plain old alkalines in a pinch (which is the most common battery available across the world), and some can even use 14500's for that extra punch.

Modern regulation and circuitry has made the CR123 vs AA battle rather moot. You can get the same performance out of either, so I choose the cheaper, safer, and more versatile solution.

Yup, that complicates things. While you can't get the discharge rate from alkaline AAs, NiMH and lithiums can support it. Of course those didn't exist (or at least weren't mainstream like they are now)when CR123s first went into flashlights. So there is some legacy there.

 

[Marduke]

Yup, that complicates things. While you can't get the discharge rate from alkaline AAs, NiMH and lithiums can support it. Of course those didn't exist (or at least weren't mainstream like they are now)when CR123s first went into flashlights. So there is some legacy there.

Exactly. Years ago, CR123's were the ONLY way to get lots of power in a small package. The only choice for AA's back then were carbon zinc (yuk!), alkalines, and the occasional NiCad AA with super low capacity.

It wasn't until the relatively recent introduction of regulatory and boost circuits in a large number of modern flashlights that the lower voltage doesn't matter nearly as much, and most of the advantages of CR123's went out the window. New, reliable high capacity NiMH, LSD NiMH, and L91's put 3 nails in the coffin.