Why do LED lights still suck and why do I still use incans or HIDs, your opinions or disagreements please.

[JustAnOldFashionedLEDGuy]

I'm not even necessarily talking about products with LEDs. Rather, there's stuff like this:

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805619656283.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2usa

or this:

The ADS1256 costs well over $7 if you buy full reels, yet they're selling a completed board with it and other chips (including an ADR03 voltage reference which goes for about $1.50 in large quantities) for $13.40. Even in large quantities I probably couldn't have that board made for what they're selling it for (and presumably making a profit on).

Didn't take me long to find out I can get the ADR03 in Asia for < $1.10 USD. The ADS1256 looks like I could probably get for $6.50, but lets go with $7.0. $1.00 USD for all the other parts. $0.12 for PCB, $0.25-0.35 to assemble. Cost in CDN$ = $13 - $14 on high end. Let's call it $13.50 with 20 points margin = $16.85 ... (current price is $16.79).

 

[JustAnOldFashionedLEDGuy]

The second item uses the MCP3421 which sells for north of $2 if you buy multiple reels.

$1.16 USD / 1000 pieces in Asia, MCP3421A0T-E/CH, but for you $1.75, and I can get you 3,000.

 

[jtr1962]

Didn't take me long to find out I can get the ADR03 in Asia for < $1.10 USD. The ADS1256 looks like I could probably get for $6.50, but lets go with $7.0. $1.00 USD for all the other parts. $0.12 for PCB, $0.25-0.35 to assemble. Cost in CDN$ = $13 - $14 on high end. Let's call it $13.50 with 20 points margin = $16.85 ... (current price is $16.79).

It's currently selling for $12.06 USD. Going by your numbers, cost to make = $7.00 (ADS1256) + $1.00 (other parts) + $1.10 (ADR03) + $0.12 (PCB) + $0.25 (assembly) = $9.47 USD.

Your PCB and assembly costs seem rather low. A PCB I'm currently having made which is 1/4 that size is about $0.25 in 1000s. Going to much larger quantities doesn't drop the price much. Materials cost what they do per square inch. More likely the PCB would be $0.75. Assembly for the same project I'm doing is about a buck for 15 2-pad SMD parts in 1000s. That board has way more parts. I'm dubious if anyone could assemble it for less than a buck. These two things bump up the cost to $10.85.

Neither of us are even including the cost of designing the thing.

Another thing to keep in mind is you have a bunch of different sellers selling the same boards. Somebody else is making them, then selling them wholesale to these sellers. Even going by your numbers, if the manufacturer makes them for $9.47, add a 20% margin, so they sell them to the vendors for about $11.35. The vendors would need to charge about $13.60 to get their 20% margin.

Second thing which makes me suspicious is the fact something like this isn't an item which would sell in huge quantities. It's a niche item. You don't have the advantage of economies of scale like the voltmeters, or other things, the Chinese make which they probably sell by the millions. So you're not buying parts or doing assembly in huge quantities. I'm just wondering how the heck they can sell something like this so cheaply. If someone in the US made and sold the same thing, it would probably be like $50 at least.

Either they're getting the parts for WAY less than even your prices, or they're dumping stuff on the market at less than cost.

Another thought just came to mind here. It's entirely possible they made of run of these boards for some US company which paid them handsomely for it. So they already made their money. Maybe they had a bunch extra made just in case some didn't meet spec. We did that on a project I worked on once. We needed 100 boards, but had 200 made just to account for some boards not working as they should. So the Chinese dump the leftovers on the market. They sell to AliExpress vendors at cost.

$1.16 USD / 1000 pieces in Asia, MCP3421A0T-E/CH, but for you $1.75, and I can get you 3,000.

Why are the prices so much lower in Asia? Even getting the same part direct from Microchip, I'm paying $2.35 in large quantities.

EDIT: I'm seeing some vendors on AliExpress selling this chip for about a buck, even in small quantities:

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256801645922950.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.33.25bb12e2Hf1hhP&algo_pvid=e0a49d23-b34f-42d5-8cbc-ec35e4a70d1a&algo_exp_id=e0a49d23-b34f-42d5-8cbc-ec35e4a70d1a-16&pdp_npi=4%40dis%21USD%214.94%214.94%21%21%214.94%21%21%402103247116942817767726187ef3be%2112000032346195774%21sea%21US%21131985237%21S&curPageLogUid=WVFOatrueF8V

Just wondering aloud if these are counterfeit chips or what the story is. I generally stick with vendors like Mouser or Digikey for any parts which are mission critical. Thankfully, none of what I do for people is super cost sensitive.

 

[JustAnOldFashionedLEDGuy]

It's currently selling for $12.06 USD. Going by your numbers, cost to make = $7.00 (ADS1256) + $1.00 (other parts) + $1.10 (ADR03) + $0.12 (PCB) + $0.25 (assembly) = $9.47 USD.

Your PCB and assembly costs seem rather low. A PCB I'm currently having made which is 1/4 that size is about $0.25 in 1000s. Going to much larger quantities doesn't drop the price much. Materials cost what they do per square inch. More likely the PCB would be $0.75. Assembly for the same project I'm doing is about a buck for 15 2-pad SMD parts in 1000s. That board has way more parts. I'm dubious if anyone could assemble it for less than a buck. These two things bump up the cost to $10.85.

Neither of us are even including the cost of designing the thing.

Another thing to keep in mind is you have a bunch of different sellers selling the same boards. Somebody else is making them, then selling them wholesale to these sellers. Even going by your numbers, if the manufacturer makes them for $9.47, add a 20% margin, so they sell them to the vendors for about $11.35. The vendors would need to charge about $13.60 to get their 20% margin.

Second thing which makes me suspicious is the fact something like this isn't an item which would sell in huge quantities. It's a niche item. You don't have the advantage of economies of scale like the voltmeters, or other things, the Chinese make which they probably sell by the millions. So you're not buying parts or doing assembly in huge quantities. I'm just wondering how the heck they can sell something like this so cheaply. If someone in the US made and sold the same thing, it would probably be like $50 at least.

Either they're getting the parts for WAY less than even your prices, or they're dumping stuff on the market at less than cost.

Another thought just came to mind here. It's entirely possible they made of run of these boards for some US company which paid them handsomely for it. So they already made their money. Maybe they had a bunch extra made just in case some didn't meet spec. We did that on a project I worked on once. We needed 100 boards, but had 200 made just to account for some boards not working as they should. So the Chinese dump the leftovers on the market. They sell to AliExpress vendors at cost.

Why are the prices so much lower in Asia? Even getting the same part direct from Microchip, I'm paying $2.35 in large quantities.

EDIT: I'm seeing some vendors on AliExpress selling this chip for about a buck, even in small quantities:

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256801645922950.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.33.25bb12e2Hf1hhP&algo_pvid=e0a49d23-b34f-42d5-8cbc-ec35e4a70d1a&algo_exp_id=e0a49d23-b34f-42d5-8cbc-ec35e4a70d1a-16&pdp_npi=4%40dis%21USD%214.94%214.94%21%21%214.94%21%21%402103247116942817767726187ef3be%2112000032346195774%21sea%21US%21131985237%21S&curPageLogUid=WVFOatrueF8V

Just wondering aloud if these are counterfeit chips or what the story is. I generally stick with vendors like Mouser or Digikey for any parts which are mission critical. Thankfully, none of what I do for people is super cost sensitive.

Let's just go with you have no idea about prices for parts or assembly in Asia ....

I assume the PCB is about 3.5 square inches and cheap PCB 2 layer about $0.035USD so $0.12.

$1.00 for 15 SMD part because you are paying NA setup costs, and NA labor and NA financing. Most of your cost is setup and admin. 43 placements, I am probably high in my assembly estimate. I could probably get this run for about $0.20/PCB plus a small setup fee amortized over thousands of boards. That is all the assembly house is going to charge plus some overhead for boxes and stuff. They won't be charging any 20% overhead unless they are the ones holding the warranty, so that leaves most of the margin for the person selling it to you who is taking the risk.

There was a ton of parts bought in Asia during the Covid run-up to make a buck on allocation. Some of those vendors may be dumping stock now for cash flow. Microchip may have some more aggressive pricing in Asia to compete with the ADS1100. There could be an Asian drop-in though I am not aware of any.

 

[jtr1962]

Let's just go with you have no idea about prices for parts or assembly in Asia ....

I assume the PCB is about 3.5 square inches and cheap PCB 2 layer about $0.035USD so $0.12.

$1.00 for 15 SMD part because you are paying NA setup costs, and NA labor and NA financing.

I'm using AllPCB, which is based in China, not a NA place.

I just double-checked my last quote for boards. 15.6 cents each in 1000s, 9.1 cents in 10000s. Shipping is included in those prices. The board is 1.33 square inches. So that's about double per square inch what you mentioned, although it's moot because the board cost is typically one of the smallest line items in any project.

Most of your cost is setup and admin. 43 placements, I am probably high in my assembly estimate. I could probably get this run for about $0.20/PCB plus a small setup fee amortized over thousands of boards. That is all the assembly house is going to charge plus some overhead for boxes and stuff.

They charge by the number of SMD solder joints, not components, at least the place I'm using does. Chinese prices. I'm getting an assembly estimate of $1.58 with 6 day turnaround, $1.09 with 4 day turnaround, in 1000s and 2000s, respectively. They don't break down setup costs separately. That's the total price, not including shipping. I was estimating the number of unique parts. I'm assuming those rows of 8 resistors and 8 caps are all the same part, for example.

Somebody needs to test the finished boards. Neither of us accounted for that.

If you know of anyone who is going to do the same assembly for $0.20, even in China, I'm all ears. I was actually thrilled when I got quoted around a buck for my board. Not long ago I seem to remember assemblers charging about a quarter per SMD component, probably NA prices. And you had to give 10% more parts.

Amortized over thousands of boards? This is a niche product.

They won't be charging any 20% overhead unless they are the ones holding the warranty, so that leaves most of the margin for the person selling it to you who is taking the risk.

The PC house isn't the one selling it to the vendors. You misunderstood what I said. You have someone who decides to make a big run of these. Their cost is whatever the PC house charges for boards and assembly, plus the cost of shipping and components. Then they add their markup before selling it to the vendors. Maybe they're happy with 10% because they're not dealing with the hassle of selling to individual customers. Then the vendors add at least 20% on top of that, although if AliExpress has fees anything like eBay the 20% markup barely covers that. They probably need more like 40% to actually turn a decent profit.

And what about design costs? That board didn't just lay itself out. Some engineers undoubtedly designed it, tested it, and refined it. They have to be paid also. Maybe not NA rates, but it still costs money. I'd probably charge $10K to design, prototype, and get into production a board like that. Figure a few weeks of work at about $100 an hour. Of course, if they sell 5 or 6 or 7 figures the design costs are pretty much negligible on a per unit cost.

Or in some cases, I'll forgo the design fee if I'm the one who makes it. Then I make my money building and testing the boards.

There was a ton of parts bought in Asia during the Covid run-up to make a buck on allocation. Some of those vendors may be dumping stock now for cash flow. Microchip may have some more aggressive pricing in Asia to compete with the ADS1100. There could be an Asian drop-in though I am not aware of any.

Might well be what's happening. All I know is the kind pricing I'm seeing makes a lot of projects which used to be viable for people like me no longer so. I used to make medium runs of LED drivers for people c. 2005 through 2015. For what I could get for them, hand assembling boards with less than 10 SMD components with a hot air gun myself, gave me a per hour return that was worthwhile for me. Then eventually some of these people started asking me for prices which were less than the parts would cost me. Obviously at that point it was no longer worth my while. Now I stay completely away from the commodity stuff.

 

[JustAnOldFashionedLEDGuy]

The board is likely a reference design that has been repurposed and I can get layout in China for <$20/hr and if on staff, $10-12 / hour. Technician making not much more burdened cost doing all the heavy lifting. I would expect little / no testing on this board. Visual inspection will result in a very low failure rate. This is not rocket science or a complex board.

You are placing 26 parts with 140+ pins. The pins cost is how some do the costing in order to estimate a solder paste cost. It punished using fine pitch parts that have little solder paste. Do you think someone working there quotes out like this?

In volume I have built stuff with both 120+ SMT, 15-20 hand placed through-hole, wave soldering, case assembly, label placement, test, etc. for <$1.00 recently.

 

[jtr1962]

In volume I have built stuff with both 120+ SMT, 15-20 hand placed through-hole, wave soldering, case assembly, label placement, test, etc. for <$1.00 recently.

I don't see how anyone can make money with pricing like that. The machines cost a sh*t ton of money. The building costs money to buy and operate. The labor costs money.

Don't know what volumes you're talking about to get the kind of pricing you mention. 100K? 1M? 10M? At best I have stuff done 1000 at a time, but for this project usually 100 or 200. Point of fact I'm not even having them do the assembly for me at this stage. That's a fall-back position in case the volumes become higher than I can handle with my reflow oven.

BTW, the board we're talking about is doing 24 bit A/D conversion. Board layout/design isn't trivial at that level of precision. Remember we're measuring voltages with nanovolt resolution. Don't know if testing is actually needed but board layout is critical. You want someone well-versed in analog design. 24-bit A/D is pointless if there's so much noise on the board that the ENOB is only, say, 15 or 16.

 

[idleprocess]

It's almost like ... there's a section ... for discussion of electronics.

 

[ABTOMAT]

This thread made me realize I haven't used an incan flashlight since 2009 or so. Even though I have...a few. Color rendition has been a low priority for me compared to practicality.

 

[ampdude]

This thread made me realize I haven't used an incan flashlight since 2009 or so. Even though I have...a few. Color rendition has been a low priority for me compared to practicality.

I can understand that. It's just a matter of a particular person's priorities. Sometimes I'll stick the cheapest, bluest tinted, 20 year old LED light in my pocket, just because I know it works. Not ideal, but it's what was laying in the drawer and I saw it, or I wasn't worried about losing it. Or I was lazy, hahaha.

 

[LuxLuthor]

OK, the real question Lux is..........Do you still have your N30?

I can answer yes, as I think the only light I ever sold was one of my two Barnburners to Karl...

 

[JustAnOldFashionedLEDGuy]

This thread made me realize I haven't used an incan flashlight since 2009 or so. Even though I have...a few. Color rendition has been a low priority for me compared to practicality.

They are like film cameras. When I got my digital SLR, I put my film camera in a box expecting to use it soon. Next time that box was opened was to put it on e-bay. Nothing "glamorous" to me about incan. Inefficient. Bad beam quality. Unreliable. Poor color rendering on many colors.

 

[aznsx]

Color rendition has been a low priority for me compared to practicality.

It's also gotten fairly 'easy' these days, as there are LEDs which offer good amounts of both. That's not to say I don't use my trusty old-time incan Scorpions, etc. sometimes for some nostalgia buzz, but that's for fun, as they're not my workhorse lights now.

 

[defloyd77]

I just found an old incan MiniMag, threw in some fresh batteries and gave turned it on going for that "nostalgia" I keep reading about. Woof! What am I missing? What technology still sucks?

 

[RWT1405]

I just found an old incan MiniMag, threw in some fresh batteries and gave turned it on going for that "nostalgia" I keep reading about. Woof! What am I missing? What technology still sucks?

As a few others have said, I also don't understand why anyone would consider Incan flashlights superior to LED flashlights that are available now, and over the last 15 or so years.

Sure, I have some Incan flashlights in storage, but I couldn't tell you the last time I utilized them for anything.

When I started in EMS and Fire in 1979, Ican was all we had, they were useful, at least until the batts died or the bulbs broke.

In 1984 when I got my first Mini-Mag AA Ican, it was impressive, now LED Solitaires provide better light.

In 1995 when I got my first SureFires (2 - 6P's and a 9P - Icans) they were VERY impressive

In 2008 when I switched out my SureFire P60's with Malkoff M60's, then M61's, they (Malkoff's) were/are far superior to the Icans in every way, at least for me

For me, Ican Flashlights basically became useless, unless being used as bodies for Malkoff, Veleno, etc., in 2008

As always, I use my lights for work, and not to play with, or to hunt white walls, etc., so perhaps that is why I don't get it.......

 

[LuxLuthor]

As a few others have said, I also don't understand why anyone would consider Incan flashlights superior to LED flashlights that are available now, and over the last 15 or so years.

Sure, I have some Incan flashlights in storage, but I couldn't tell you the last time I utilized them for anything.

When I started in EMS and Fire in 1979, Ican was all we had, they were useful, at least until the batts died or the bulbs broke.

In 1984 when I got my first Mini-Mag AA Ican, it was impressive, now LED Solitaires provide better light.

In 1995 when I got my first SureFires (2 - 6P's and a 9P - Icans) they were VERY impressive

In 2008 when I switched out my SureFire P60's with Malkoff M60's, then M61's, they (Malkoff's) were/are far superior to the Icans in every way, at least for me

For me, Ican Flashlights basically became useless, unless being used as bodies for Malkoff, Veleno, etc., in 2008

As always, I use my lights for work, and not to play with, or to hunt white walls, etc., so perhaps that is why I don't get it.......

Many LED Jockeys (not all), never had a full spectrum of various incan with high quality, custom bipins like those I reviewed in my sig thread. The standard 2D/3D/4D/5D or C cell Maglights or similar category of incands did not supply adequate lighting, beam pattern, or color rendering the same as the type of incans that many of us still love.

I still have and use many incands for 20+ years that have never burned out the bulb in part because I know the proper voltage/amperage to drive them at.

A perfect example was I have been roasting coffee beans in a Behmor roaster that has a window to see the beans. Using any of my dozens of LED lights gave false color displays of the roasting bean color. I grabbed one of my quality incands, and the color rendition was perfect, and exactly how the color appears in daylight. It's called 100% CRI that you don't see with LED's.

 

[RWT1405]

Many LED Jockeys (not all), never had a full spectrum of various incan with high quality, custom bipins like those I reviewed in my sig thread. The standard 2D/3D/4D/5D or C cell Maglights or similar category of incands did not supply adequate lighting, beam pattern, or color rendering the same as the type of incans that many of us still love.

I still have and use many incands for 20+ years that have never burned out the bulb in part because I know the proper voltage/amperage to drive them at.

A perfect example was I have been roasting coffee beans in a Behmor roaster that has a window to see the beans. Using any of my dozens of LED lights gave false color displays of the roasting bean color. I grabbed one of my quality incands, and the color rendition was perfect, and exactly how the color appears in daylight. It's called 100% CRI that you don't see with LED's.

That's cool.

I am glad that some folks still enjoy Incans and get use out of them.

The 25+ years that I used Icans for work, convinced me that LEDS are far superior, at least for me, and I can find no convincing reason to go back to them.

Years ago, I considered a ROP, etc., however, I don't "play" with my flashlights, I use them for work, and there was just no way I could imagine using those for anything other than a "play toy", and I can't imagine any use for them other than as a "play toy."

But I do realize that many folks use their flashlights differently than I do.

It sure would be a boring world if we all liked the same things!

 

[defloyd77]

Many LED Jockeys (not all), never had a full spectrum of various incan with high quality, custom bipins like those I reviewed in my sig thread. The standard 2D/3D/4D/5D or C cell Maglights or similar category of incands did not supply adequate lighting, beam pattern, or color rendering the same as the type of incans that many of us still love.

I still have and use many incands for 20+ years that have never burned out the bulb in part because I know the proper voltage/amperage to drive them at.

A perfect example was I have been roasting coffee beans in a Behmor roaster that has a window to see the beans. Using any of my dozens of LED lights gave false color displays of the roasting bean color. I grabbed one of my quality incands, and the color rendition was perfect, and exactly how the color appears in daylight. It's called 100% CRI that you don't see with LED's.

Wrong on both fronts. An incan will have 100 CRI regardless of its quality. That Mini Mag I found, 100 CRI. Candles, 100 CRI. Regardless though, no incandescent will ever replicate the light of daylight because the actual wavelengths they produce are completely different. CRI is meant to be compared at the same color temperature, so just because incans have the same CRI number as daylight, does not mean they are the same.

Here's a good article for those who care to read it

CRI Explained

The term CRI tends to cause a fair amount of confusion among everyday consumers when it comes to choosing the best light source for their needs we will do the best that we can to explain the term so it can be easily understood and used appropriately.

www.fullspectrumsolutions.com

Here's the part worth pointing out for the thread:

"Incandescent bulbs have a CRI rating of 100, yet are far from ideal for color rendering and matching. Why? With a color temperature of only 2700k they are far too weak at the blue end of the spectrum making it next to impossible to distiguish between various shades of blue. The CRI rating of 100 simply means that the 8 samples look exactly the same as they would under a black body radiator at 2700k."

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

🥱

 

[yellow]

Who wants halogen bulbs back into ones car headlights?
😉