Why I hate clones (and so should you)

[jeeves]

Trade is complicated.

What's the actual complaint here?
That clones effect innovation? Pricing? Quality?
Is it that "cloning" is 'morally' wrong?

I think just about everyone is missing the point.
Though, I can't explain it.

 

[tygger]

How about the food industry? Aren't restaurants one giant cloning operation? Or entertainment? Most musicians and comedians make their start imitating well known artists until they find their voice. Are goods that different? Don't many manufactureres copy great designs until they develop their own uniqueness? Just a thought.

 

[red02]

.............
Why clones are bad for consumers, and subsequently The Product

1) Clones indicate a lack of attention to detail. If a manufacturer cannot be bothered to come up with their own feature set and/or aesthetic styling, they also cannot be bothered to build a Product properly. I will not name names but those with a keen eye and sense of engineering who have both Brand A, high end product, and Brand B, high performance low cost product, where Brand B chooses to copy significant parts of Brand A's styling in order to piggyback on Brand A's popularity and brand image, will notice that Brand B has all sorts of interesting engineering shortcomings and a distinct lack of attention to detail. Brand C, high performance low cost product, with its own styling and some investment into R&D, will often tend to have better attention to detail because their brand is riding on their own image, not the coattails of others. Don't think for a moment that this applies to only flashlights. Consider my earlier car analogy and follow up by considering clone manufacturers and their reputation in that industry.

Making a copy requires more attention to detail, not less. Creativity and quality are not one and the same. If a company makes a bad products that fails or do not live up to expectations, that same company will suffer not the competition since it will be their brand that draws scrutiny.

2) Clones do not offer as great a sense of worth. For many of us who are avid product users, whether something is a clone or not has little effect on its pure utilitarian value, aside my previous statement about quality and lack of attention to details. However, for many of us who are also collectors and cherish the products we own for whatever desirable properties they have, we can take pride in having and using an excellent, well-designed, thoughtfully engineered Product. Joy and satisfaction is hard to qualify but I take much greater satisfaction in using an Original Product that a clone. I think many others would also agree.
................

This does not effect the average consumer, especially those who view value as performance/$. Collectors are a breed of their own. It also depends on the person, some people value rolex knock offs as status symbols even though they know its a fake. Personally I value my replica Steve Y Detroit Red Wings Jersey that I got the first time I went to a game. A symbol is what you invest into it.

I am not convinced that I should hate clones or that they are bad since they encourage needed innovation and deter stagnation. Personally I think using such language encourages polarization and not healthy debate. Consumers are also helped by price drops as well as the performance(how ever you measure it: ie durability, efficiency, ect.)/$ increases. As a consumer, I want competition instead of a single company cornering the market.

 

[Monocrom]

Bingo. First thing I think to myself when I see a Rolex on someone's wrist is "Real or fake?"

One dead giveaway is to ask the person the time. While they look down, take a peek as well. If the seconds literally tick by, it's a fake. A real Rolex won't tick, that hand literally sweeps around the face.

Also . . . +1 regarding everything carrot posted.

 

[jimmy1970]

If I can bring the conversation back to P60 based lights, I personally want the best quality available. That is why I only buy Surefire. Only my opinion,

James....

 

[JaguarDave-in-Oz]

One dead giveaway is to ask the person the time. While they look down, take a peek as well. If the seconds literally tick by, it's a fake. A real Rolex won't tick, that hand literally sweeps around the face..

it'll work for a lot of em but plenty of "fake rolexes" also have 28800 bph movements these days.

 

[DimeRazorback]

it'll work for a lot of em but plenty of "fake rolexes" also have 28800 bph movements these days.

I once saw a man wearing a fake rolex... the second hand didn't even move

Needless to say, I brought up the fact that it was fake.

 

[Jash]

I'm a little divided on this subject. I agree with what Carrot is saying, but...

I work in a unique industry, piano sales and service, and what we have is cloning on a mass scale.

The Europeans invented the paino forte and about two centuries later the Japanese tried their hand at it. In particular Yamaha, who taught Kawai.

In fact the Yamaha logo that covers everything the company makes, from recorders, guitars, pianos, to motorbikes and jetskis, is actually three tuning forks crossing eachother. This is derived from it's origins, pianos.

When Yamaha first started, their instruments were far behind what Europe and America were making. However, they caught up fairly quickly and now make what is considered by many a professional musician, teaching institution and recording studio, the BEST.

Now the Chinese are starting to build half decent pianos and the Pearl River factory is now the largest producer of pianos in the world. That title used to belong to Yamaha.

It is now the Japanese who have set the benchmark and I would say that sometime in the future the Chinese will set the benchmark many a wuality product.

I'm not saying that other countries don't make good stuff, it's just that the Asian's know how to do it, cheaply.

How old are companies like Fenix, Quark, Nitecore, Jetbeam? Give it another 5 years and these manufacturers are going to be making some red hot product (better than what they make now).

I don't think Surefire is in any way at risk in the same way Steinway isn't at risk from Yamaha, but one day you will be able to buy a product as good as western made stuff at half the price, or less.

 

[Foxfyre]

Great topic Carrot. +1 :thumbsup:.

It would seem to me that most brand companies would have a vested interest in producing quality items. They are in it for the repeat business.

Clone companies appear to be looking for the next hot thing and as long as a fast profit is there to be made and if they don't have to spend anything on R&D then that's just extra cash in their pockets.

If consumers quit buying a clone product from its failure they just clone the next hottest thing and throw that out on the market.

Having owned both a high grade swiss watch (we all know the brand) and an almost indistingushable swiss clone of it given to me as a gift I can say that there was a big difference.

The clone has long since died; the poor thing rusting from a light summer storm at the beach. The real one, battered and punished in far more hideous ways, is purring away on my wrist as we speak.

My experiences with flashlights has been similar.

My suspicions based on experiences such as this is that odds are the clone may not be a better value for me in the long run.

I'll take the brand flashlight over a clone any day for the reputation for reliability (of course being aware that anything may fail). I feel that my and my loved ones well being is worth the few extra $ spent for the original and the R&D that company puts into improving on a solid product.

My two cents, thrown in, for whatever they're worth.

 

[JaguarDave-in-Oz]

Having owned both a high grade swiss watch (we all know the brand) and an almost indistingushable swiss clone of it given to me as a gift I can say that there was a big difference.

The clone has long since died; the poor thing rusting from a light summer storm at the beach. The real one, battered and punished in far more hideous ways, is purring away on my wrist as we speak.

Interesting re the watch thing. I bought a Rolex GMT master in 1984. I think the current price in Australian Dollars at an Aussie dealer of such a model is about nine grand. It's serviced every five years or so and is still going strong and has a steady rate of gain at about three seconds a day.

After a couple of decades of every day wear I've mostly stopped wearing my Rolex it cos it's been treated pretty rough and is showing many marks on the stainless case and bracelet, though admittedly it's wearing rather gracefully.

A couple of years back I bought what could be called a Rolex clone. It's an Invicta 8926 that looks very very much like a Rolex Submariner of the eighties and nineties and has most of the same features. This watch contains a Japanese 21 Jewel Miyota movement, same as supplied for many Citizen watches. The case is decent quality stainless steel. I've worn the watch 24 hours a day through thick and thin (I have a very rough lifestyle) for most of that couple of years and the watch has performed admirably and I expect that the movement could continue to do so for at least as long as the Rolex has done so far (as millions of Citizen movements have done before).

This Invicta "clone" watch isn't as accurate as the Rolex because it's rate isn't quite as constant as the Rolex. It doesn't come adjusted to as many positions as the Rolex. The Invicta will gain two seconds one day and four another. It's still very good for a mechanical watch and I admit I've regulated it myself to give it the best shot at accuracy. It certainly performs as accurately as I need a watch to do.

Given that the Invicta cost me about a fiftieth of what my real Rolex would cost today I think it's much better value than my Rolex was.

I always liked the look of Rolexes. I Probably liked the look more than any other aspect of them but my stance on expenditure of my money on "snob products" has changed markedly in the intervening twenty five years since I bought that Rolex and I'd never entertain the idea of doing such a thing again. I'd rather buy ten half decent clones over the same period of time.

Note please. I'm referring to a clone here. It looks a lot like a Rolex but has a completely different and very obvious brand name and logo on it. I'm not into counterfeits.

 

[was.lost.but.now.found]

plus 1...

Also, if one is using the light for any type of safety/leo/fire/emt/security work, you are putting oneself in danger too (bad clickies)

This argument has been done over and over. Just because you spend out the wazzoo for the most reliable guaranteed light there is, does not guarantee it will be infallible.

Using that stand point all compatible aftermarket parts using any part of the original component's design (to ensure fitment/aesthetic continuity) is also in itself rewarding a design thief is it not? :thinking:

Outstanding point. I'm still waiting to hear from the OP or DM whether they buy exclusively 100% OEM parts for their vehicles (that essentially means you've never stepped foot into an AutoZone, PepBoys, Advance Auto Parts, O'Reilly, Napa, or a host of other comparable stores which do not sell OEM parts).

Given that the Invicta cost me about a fiftieth of what my real Rolex would cost today I think it's much better value than my Rolex was.

I always liked the look of Rolexes. I Probably liked the look more than any other aspect of them but my stance on expenditure of my money on "snob products" has changed markedly in the intervening twenty five years since I bought that Rolex and I'd never entertain the idea of doing such a thing again. I'd rather buy ten half decent clones over the same period of time.

Note please. I'm referring to a clone here. It looks a lot like a Rolex but has a completely different and very obvious brand name and logo on it. I'm not into counterfeits.

Rolex will never fall to clones, period. And this is the classic argument in opposition to the OPs claim, that if a manufacturer is good enough and makes the right business decisions the whole debate over cloning is a non issue.

 

[JaguarDave-in-Oz]

Rolex will never fall to clones, period. And this is the classic argument in opposition to the OPs claim, that if a manufacturer is good enough and makes the right business decisions the whole debate over cloning is a non issue.

I'd go so far as to say that since the massive increase in cloning and counterfeiting in the eighties, Rolex has become much more widely known, gone from strength to strength and sells more "genuine" product than ever.

 

[Brigadier]

Carrot, actually I thought Brigadier was being sarcastic and was in agreement with you (I could be wrong).

Thank you!!!

 

[Brigadier]

But the case in point (Surefire 6P) is pretty hard to design a light any different.

Take a 1 inch pipe long enough to hold 1xCR123 with a bigger diameter head to hold a D26 globe on and it looks like another pipe with head on.

Cloning the real innovation in Surefire rarely happens. Who else has a tailcap switch like that? LOTC with momentary so simple and reliable.

Patenting the 1 inch pipe qoes a little far in my books.

I disagree. For example, look at the LF Seraph series. P60 compatible, but no one would ever guess it is a SF me too light.

 

[Brigadier]

One dead giveaway is to ask the person the time. While they look down, take a peek as well. If the seconds literally tick by, it's a fake. A real Rolex won't tick, that hand literally sweeps around the face.

Also . . . +1 regarding everything carrot posted.

I have seen some very convincing fakes, complete with ETA 2824 automatic movements.

 

[JaguarDave-in-Oz]

I have seen some very convincing fakes, complete with ETA 2824 automatic movements.

and nowadays one needs to know what one is looking for to tell the real ETA 2824 from its Chinese clone....................

 

[was.lost.but.now.found]

I have seen some very convincing fakes, complete with ETA 2824 automatic movements.

and nowadays one needs to know what one is looking for to tell the real ETA 2824 from its Chinese clone....................

I don't see that this is pertinent to the discussion. I don't think anyone is debating the merits, or actually lack thereof, of counterfeits. Counterfeits are not clones.

 

[JaguarDave-in-Oz]

I don't see that this is pertinent to the discussion. I don't think anyone is debating the merits, or actually lack thereof, of counterfeits. Counterfeits are not clones.

In defence of myself, the chinese clones of ETA 2824 I mention are not counterfeits. They are clones called Seagull ST24 and to me, quite pertinent in the context of looking the same (they do not have ETA markings) but not being counterfeit but allowing "genuine" parts, such as dials, to be fitted.

 

[was.lost.but.now.found]

In defence of myself, the chinese clones of ETA 2824 I mention are not counterfeits. They are clones called Seagull ST24 and to me, quite pertinent in the context of looking the same (they do not have ETA markings) but not being counterfeit but allowing "genuine" parts, such as dials, to be fitted.

My point was more in reference to Brigadier's comment about admittedly fake 'hosts'; what's on the outside. Nobody who buys counterfeit cares what's on the inside. Someone who buys a clone just might care about the inside.

 

[GeetarHero]

Totally agree with was.lost.but.now.found. regarding the Autoparts comment! Also to the OP and +1's, would you never drink a shasta cola or RC Cola because they are "clones of Coca Cola? Would you never purchase a Kirkland signature product from Costco because they're "clones" of the originals? I own Surefire, Fenix, Maglite and several "clones" but ultimately I love ALL my Flashlights! I feel that this is Fanboyism at its WORST! (If you're not a Fanboy then you shouldn't be offended) telling people how they "should" feel is a little bold and I applaud you for being so passionate about your beliefs OP but maybe your use of the word hate is what has so many posters willing to argue with you... I am a Guitar Hero Fanboy and I approved this message!