why so much hate towards electric cars?

SCEMan

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Chauncey Gardiner

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SCEMan

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id love to live in cali
You'll love it there. From today's news...
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orbital

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WOW! Who saw that coming?!
+

yep Chance,, tip of the iceberg on the unforeseen issues.

- Hurricanes tornadoes derecho
- extreme heat waves/blackouts
- Ice Storms and or blizzards w/ charging outside
- 200 year flooding; over the hoods of cars seem normal now, gee what could go wrong....
- who's going to maintain all the charging stations, if they work at all years from now
- vandalism from pissed off people when there is no parking other than primo EV charging spots
- the age & vulnerability of our grid
- Putin, EU and the rest of the world (it's all interconnected)
-> simply put, the energy required for ALL grids & where that's coming from
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- 'Out of Order' sings will be in demand


= honestly, when I see EV car adds and there's nothing in the garages except a single EV charging plug,
just highlights the blinders & extreme unrealistically of it all.
 
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JimIslander

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I guess it's time to unplug all the the Teslas...

Why do people hate electric car MANDATES? This. ^^^^^^^^^

Yet another tool to control the masses and deprive citizens of our constitutional right to travel without government interference. WE are the country; remember?
 

orbital

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+

btw, on my mild rant above ^

Personally, I'll have around 1kW of solar panels in full use today.
 

SCEMan

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Monocrom

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I'm a bit confused. Did this corrections counselor live in an apartment with his significant other? Is that why he went out to find a charging station at night? I just figured it was obvious that a person needed an actual house in order to charge an EV, and that charging stations (at least in this point in their history) were for emergencies or folks traveling outside of their jurisdictions on short road trips.
 

scout24

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I could get away with a Nissan Leaf for about half to 2/3 of my yearly driving, and have looked extensively at used ones. Most of my travel is rural to suburban local, but I need things like climate control pretty frequently. And I'd rather not rely on or pay for grid power to run it. So, I have no hate towards electric cars. Owned a hybrid for a few years, but always alongside a truck for moving more than two adults and or building supplies, etc. What I do hate is those who believe it's their place to tell you what you have to do, and the holier than thou attitude that comes with the average tesla driver in my area. I also don't like paying for their charging infrastructure via grants and dedicated parking spaces or areas. Never mind "tax incentives." The free market will determine the viability of ev's the same way it does everything else. It will either work and benefit everyone or it will remain on the periphery. Don't shove it down people's throats and we'll get along fine.
 

Monocrom

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As far as actual EV prices go (no governmental incentives of any kind in America), they would be a wealthy man's toy. Similar to cars in America before Henry Ford came out with his Model T. Taking into account that automakers nowadays still need to make at least a decent profit, we're looking at around $75K out the door for anything decently equipped.

Without the government stepping in, EVs would be too costly for the average person to own, for at least several more decades down the road.
 

jtr1962

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As far as actual EV prices go (no governmental incentives of any kind in America), they would be a wealthy man's toy. Similar to cars in America before Henry Ford came out with his Model T. Taking into account that automakers nowadays still need to make at least a decent profit, we're looking at around $75K out the door for anything decently equipped.

Without the government stepping in, EVs would be too costly for the average person to own, for at least several more decades down the road.
EVs are pretty much like anything else new. The first ones to come out cater to the high-end luxury market. The early adopters always pay more. Then they figure out how to make them cheaper, and the masses can afford them. That's exactly what happened with PCs, flat-screen TVs, SSDs, even LED flashlights, just to name a few things.

The affordable EVs are coming, and sooner than most think:


When produced in the same quantities as gas cars, EVs should cost less.

Batteries are only continuing to go down in price as well. Watch this on the state of LiFePO4 research:



The key takeaways are LFP batteries are approaching the energy density of regular li-ion, and the price is trending towards that of lead-acid.
 

jtr1962

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What I do hate is those who believe it's their place to tell you what you have to do, and the holier than thou attitude that comes with the average tesla driver in my area.
There I agree, and it's the same attitude that Prius drivers used to give back when owning a Prius was a trendy thing among the elites. Fact is, the biggest problem is not how the cars are powered, but the very fact we're stuck with automotive dominance in the US for at least another generation or two. Roads are energy-intensive to build/maintain, it's wasteful when things are too spread out to walk or bike, taking built-in activity out of our lives makes the obesity epidemic worse, plus cars hurt poor people the most by consuming the largest percentage of their income. That's actually just the tip of the iceberg. Let's not ignore the carnage on our roads. I even told one Prius owner to stop pontificating. When he gets his behind on a bike, or on foot, for most of his trips like me, then maybe he can talk about his carbon footprint.

We should have improved the rail infrastructure that existed pre-WWII, instead of abandoning it for the automobile and aeroplane, but that's another topic for another time.
I also don't like paying for their charging infrastructure via grants and dedicated parking spaces or areas. Never mind "tax incentives." The free market will determine the viability of ev's the same way it does everything else. It will either work and benefit everyone or it will remain on the periphery. Don't shove it down people's throats and we'll get along fine.
Don't want this thread to get too political so I'll just suggest doing a search for fossil fuel subsidies, both direct and indirect. What government is giving now towards EVs is more like leveling the playing field, plus it's a fraction of what we've spent on fossil fuels. I'm all for eliminating any EV incentives, but only after we get rid of every direct and indirect subsidy for fossil fuels.
 

bykfixer

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Kind of an apples/orange thing but since this is a flashlight forum....
Back around 2014? really cheap flashlights had light bulbs still. Fact was bulbs were cheaper than LED's so the buk 99 flashlight had a bulb. By 2018 that flashlight came with an LED. Cheaper to make and brighter than the bulb. Same will happen with ev's over time.

The automobile is the ultimate freedom device. You get in it when you want to, you drive where you want to with who you want with you. Mass transit is for sardines and lemmings. My brother calls them sheeple. Yeah, it caught on in really crowded places so one could travel 8 miles in a few minutes versus hours, but the 3 wheel motorcycle should be a lesson in whether Americans will ever become completely reliant on mass transit coast to coast.
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And the trouble with gubment involvement is the gubment picks the winners and losers. The consumer is stuck with the vehicle big brother ensured was the winners. They'll provide free money to those they like and obstacles for those they don't.

The only reason Honda exists today is because they chose to sell products outside of Japan. Post WW2 Japan was a huge mess. The gubment chose Mazda, Toyota and Nissan to succeed. Mr Honda who had figured out how to stretch precious gasoline with pine tree sap was considered an outcast. While those others were building things the gubment way Mr Honda was using radio generators to power bicycles and use blended fuels to power them. Eventually he sold his low powered motorcycles in California. He built one and gave it to his wife. She drove it for a time without issue. He was quoted as saying "if a Japanese woman can drive it so can Americans".

During WW2 it took the Japanese gubment 2 days to make an airplane propeller out of wood. Mr Honda showed them how to make one out of metal in 45 minutes!! Nearly every auto maker uses Mr Hondas production methods. And this was a company the gubment turned its nose up for. No, do not leave it up to a government to decide how and when EV's will succeed.

While Mr Musk has built a rocket that can return to earth and go back up again the US government cannot get a rocket to the moon in 2022 even though they did in the 1960's!!! If we let them pick our cars for us we'll be like that Reagan joke he told about the Russisn guy who was told "you're car will be ready in 10 years, the guy says morning or afternoon, the salesman says why does that matter and the guy says because the plumber is scheduled for that morning"......
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jtr1962

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I'll just add that the government's role should probably mostly be funding R&D to make new technology better. It did that with LEDs. I'd say that slashed a decade from when LEDs otherwise would have largely taken over. If it wants to fund battery R&D, that's fine also. We use batteries in lots of stuff besides electric cars. The big problem I see with government funding is when those with connections get money for technology they know just isn't going to work. Hydrogen cars are a perfect example. The last nail would have been in their coffin years ago if not for the fact fossil fuel companies want them (but seemingly nobody else does).

Mass transit by definition requires a certain population density to be viable. You don't have it in your state, probably never will. But something like 2/3rds of Americans live in places where at least some types of public transit are viable. It's also worth a mention that cars may be a symbol of freedom to many, but fact is they're very costly to own, they require an operator's license, they're far less safe than most other modes, and you're limited to an average speed of maybe 70 mph best case, at least driving legally. Oh, and you're also subject to the whims of traffic congestion. Probably not an issue in Idaho at all, but here the reason mass transit is so popular is that it's often faster than driving. From my place to Manhattan (~10 miles) might take 20 minutes by car at 3 AM. Most of the time it takes at least 45 minutes, but 1 to 2 hours happens often enough that some people who drive arrive at work two hours early to avoid the rush. That's not even including the time to park, which can be tens of minutes in Manhattan, unless you want to pay $$$ for a garage. Mass transit typically takes me 40 or 45 minutes. I've done it in about 30 when I hit the connections right.

When I used to commute to college (eastern Queens to Princeton), my trip was bus to subway, subway to Penn Station, Penn Station to Princeton via NJ Transit commuter train. Average travel time 2 hours each way to go about 70 miles. When I lived in the dorms and my father drove me, it took about the same with no traffic. I made the trip on public transit in 1:50 occasionally if I hit all the connections right. Even better, I used the train time to study or sleep. With driving it would have been completely wasted (i.e. driving is a chore for most people, driving in or near NYC is a chore even for those who love driving). That's why people use trains here. They're not sheeple. It would be impossible to move this many people by car at any kind of speed unless you stacked highways 10 deep. Even then, you're not always beating the train. Quite a few Amtrak trains on the NEC average well over 80 mph. Once the NEC is upgraded we'll have eventually have average speeds well over 100 mph. I think high-speed trains can work in much of the country for travel between cities, even if they won't supplant local car travel.

I'm bummed out with the NASA lunar mission also, but I'm tempering my disappointment by the fact that manned lunar missions are an order of magnitude harder than manned low-Earth orbit. Anything manned is an order of magnitude harder than unmanned. If a cargo rocket blows up, it just costs you money. A manned mission failure costs lives. After losing 14 people on the Shuttle, I'll forgive NASA for erring on the side of extreme caution.
 
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bykfixer

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That fateful day there was very likely an inspector saying "I told them that o'ring would leaking".

I remember watching one return mission years later and thinking "man I hope when that tile flew off when it was leaving orbit it didn't"....... :poof: "opps I suppose it did matter".
 

Chauncey Gardiner

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Elon Musk is the Soichiro Honda of the new millenium. (Pronounced so-eech-ee-ro)

That's exactly my point - The American people shouldn't desire to have their government picking winners or losers.

The United States of America has a population of approximately 333 million. That's a whole lot of people making an incalculable amount of purchasing decisions every second of the day, 24/7/365. There is no government agency or brain trust that is capable of directing all those decisions. Allowing politicians and bureaucrats to control our choices is folly and will ultimately lead to disaster.
 
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