why so much hate towards electric cars?

jtr1962

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I'd say the most arrogant pricks are those pushing EV's down the throats of the vast majority of owner/drivers that actually own and drive vehicles and have no desire to own EV's.

If EV's get to the point that they become actually useful (they aren't now) AND become able to be quickly charged (they aren't now) AND have charging stations available like "gas stations" are now (they don't now) AND have a National Electrical grid capable of handling the addition of EV's charging (it isn't now), then I will become interested in considering them.

Until then, EV's are nothing more than toys of the rich and virtue signaling.
I'd qualify all those points with "they aren't for me now" but nobody is mandating that you buy an electric vehicle. For the usage patterns of a large and growing percentage of the population, EVs work just fine. The primary showstopper preventing more widespread adoption is the currently higher purchase price, although even that is offset by lower TCO. Within a few years we'll reach price parity.

I suspect rural areas will be the last to adopt EVs due to the longer trip distances, plus the more widespread use of vehicles for towing or moving heavy cargo. That's fine. As a percentage of total emissions, rural areas are the last thing to worry about. The low hanging fruit is the massive amount of driving in or near metro areas. Fortunately, EVs are much more viable right now in those locations.
 
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RWT1405

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I'd like to see this exact same test repeated with the diesel version of the F-150 using the same starting condition. The range of the electric F-150 is 240 miles. I'll assume the battery was more or less topped out when the test began. So fill a diesel F-150 with enough fuel to give it 240 mile range per its EPA mileage. Let me know how it goes. I'd say same end result. The diesel F-150 will run dry at around 100 miles.

Common sense. It's not just the weight of what you're towing but the aero drag. That's like pulling a parachute. You're essentially moving two vehicles. Simple physics. No surprise then if you get half the range or less.

And Breitbart is the last place I'd go for true, unbiased viewpoints on EVs. I could have spent hours there refuting all the nonsense but I have better things to do.



You've refuted nothing.

But let's say your correct.

How easy is it, and how long does it take, to refuel the diesel?

How long and how easy it is to refuel the EV, if you can find someplace to refuel it, when traveling, and need fuel immediately?

This is the point that you are missing/seem incapable of understanding, there is no easy way to refuel an EV at this time, while traveling.

Also, you seem not to understand that the vast majority of those of us that own vehicles and drive, do not want EV's.

If, someday, they design an EV that can be refueled quickly and conveniently and have refueling stations available like "gas stations" are now and have the infrastructure available that can support the refueling of EV's, perhaps you might get some interest in actually owning these wet dreams, but for now that is all they are, wet dreams.
 

RWT1405

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I'd qualify all those points with "they aren't for me now" but nobody is mandating that you buy an electric vehicle. For the usage patterns of a large and growing percentage of the population, EVs work just fine. The primary showstopper preventing more widespread adoption is the currently higher purchase price, although even that is offset by lower TCO. Within a few years we'll reach price parity.

I suspect rural areas will be the last to adopt EVs due to the longer trip distances, plus the more widespread use of vehicles for towing or moving heavy cargo. That's fine. As a percentage of total emissions, rural areas are the last thing to worry about. The low hanging fruit is the massive amount of driving in or near metro areas. Fortunately, EVs are much more viable right now in those locations.

Please remind me how long you've held a Driver's License and how many vehicles you own(ed), and how many miles you drive a year?
 

jtr1962

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It is not the cars that people hate, it is politicizing and weaponizing them against ordinary people by politicians, is what people hate.
Here's the weird thing. I do searches like "hate electric cars" and I seem to come up with lots of stuff which is at least a decade old:




Given their growing adoption, I'm not sure all the politicizing and weaponizing you claim still exists to a large extent. Also, to the extent it does exist, it seems to be a mostly USA problem.
 

jtr1962

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You've refuted nothing.

But let's say your correct.

How easy is it, and how long does it take, to refuel the diesel?
Apples and oranges. If your usage patterns are such that you would need to recharge every hour or two then EVs are not for you. And nobody is suggesting otherwise.
How long and how easy it is to refuel the EV, if you can find someplace to refuel it, when traveling, and need fuel immediately?
And that becomes less and less relevant as EV range increases. As it stands now, for the vast majority of trips EV range is more than adequate to complete the trip without needing a recharge. Range will only continue to get better. If we went with more aerodynamic vehicles we could have 1,000+ mile range right now.
This is the point that you are missing/seem incapable of understanding, there is no easy way to refuel an EV at this time, while traveling.
No, I understand this perfectly, which is why I think the best solution is batteries/vehicle shapes which give higher range so there's no need to quickly recharge during a trip. Rather, you can recharge slowly at your destination.
Also, you seem not to understand that the vast majority of those of us that wn vehicles and drive, do not want EV's.

If, someday, they design an EV that can be refueled quickly and conveniently and have refueling stations available like "gas stations" are now and have the infrastructure available that can support the refueling of EV's, perhaps you might get some interest in actually owning these wet dreams, but for now that is all they are, wet dreams.
You're projecting your needs and desires as those of "the vast majority". Right now EVs are selling faster than they can be made, so evidently someone is buying them.
Please remind me how long you've held a Driver's License and how many vehicles you own(ed), and how many miles you drive a year?
I live in a place where I don't need or want either but my brother has owned many vehicles and driven probably over a million miles in his life. He's said many times his next vehicle will be electric. If EVs don't work for you, nobody is telling you to buy one. But I've seen FUD spread by naysayers for decades which has kept them unavailable even for those who want them. So who is dictating other people's choices now?
 

3_gun

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Again I don't hate EVs.

I hate the .gov giving tax rebates to rich MFs that can own 2 or 3 cars, 1 being an EV that MY TAX money helped pay for, so he/she has another toy.

The MANDATING by the same .gov crowd the end of gas based transportation by 20xx something.

That the batteries require strip mining for elements that far out weigh any "environmental" benefit.(lets not talk about the slaves & minorities that do the mining)

That there is no way (currently) to recycle the batteries that have a limited life span & no way to dispose of them.

That "they" close power plants, refusing to build others & refuse to talk about the brown/blackouts that are already happening w/o the strain of 100,000s more EVs in every state.

I could keep going so I will.

How about the fact no car company has made a profit selling EVs? Not one. Tesla showed their 1st profit selling made up (by .gov) "carbon credits" to makers of gas powered cars/trucks. It's not even close to a level playing field & still they can't force (YET) enough of us into EV that are well below true "cost" because of OUR TAX $$.

I don't hate EVs. If they want to compete in a open market for product share I'm all for it but that is not what is happening today
 

jtr1962

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Again I don't hate EVs.

I hate the .gov giving tax rebates to rich MFs that can own 2 or 3 cars, 1 being an EV that MY TAX money helped pay for, so he/she has another toy.
Fine, I agree there. At the very least have income limits for the rebate. It might make sense to help poor people buy EVs since they'll save substantially in operating costs but the rich don't need help.
The MANDATING by the same .gov crowd the end of gas based transportation by 20xx something.
I guess you don't live in a place where air pollution is a problem. I could go on also but I'll keep it short. There are huge geopolitical and health issues with fossil fuels. That's why these mandates exist. It's a pity we didn't start doing this in the 1970s after the first OPEC oil crisis but better late than never.
That the batteries require strip mining for elements that far out weigh any "environmental" benefit.(lets not talk about the slaves & minorities that do the mining)
LiFePO4 fixes most of those issues except for mining lithium. The US has lots of lithium reserves. We can also mine lithium from seawater. There are also other chemistries just reaching commercialization, like sodium-ion and iron-air. Those will make it into EVs within a decade.
That there is no way (currently) to recycle the batteries that have a limited life span & no way to dispose of them.
No, it's more like the large scale infrastructure to do this isn't currently in place simply because there hasn't been a need for it. The recycling will happen as EV batteries age out. It'll be no different than what we do now with lead-acid.

There will also be a huge secondary market for EV batteries which may have lost enough capacity to no longer be viable in a car, but they'll still be useful for grid storage. Eventually they'll lose enough capacity to no longer be viable even for that, then they'll get recycled.
That "they" close power plants, refusing to build others & refuse to talk about the brown/blackouts that are already happening w/o the strain of 100,000s more EVs in every state.
Well, you have the irrational fear of nuclear power to thank for that. We shouldn't be closing nuclear plants. We should be building new ones. Lots of them.
How about the fact no car company has made a profit selling EVs? Not one. Tesla showed their 1st profit selling made up (by .gov) "carbon credits" to makers of gas powered cars/trucks. It's not even close to a level playing field & still they can't force (YET) enough of us into EV that are well below true "cost" because of OUR TAX $$.
If we want a level playing field then I suggest we also stop fossil fuel and automotive subsidies.

In a world where the playing field was truly level you know what would likely win out? The mode of transport with the lowest inherent costs, namely rail. Rail was how we largely got around before the government started picking winners and losers after WWII.

As an aside, the criteria of making a profit isn't always relevant for areas where there's a societal need, like transportation. Point of fact by most metrics, if you count the cost of infrastructure, commercial passenger aviation hasn't made a dime. In fact, most other modes of transport never made a dime in the strict sense. The government bankrolled their infrastructure. The operators only had to cover the cost of their vehicles and labor in order to make money. Ironically, the only mode which truly makes a profit, in that it fully covers both operating and infrastructure costs, are freight railroads.
 
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Hooked on Fenix

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Fine, I agree there. At the very least have income limits for the rebate. It might make sense to help poor people buy EVs since they'll save substantially in operating costs but the rich don't need help.
There are income limits for the rebate. $150,000 per year for individuals, $225,000 for head of household, and $300,000 for joint filers. If you’re suggesting it should be much less to keep wealthy people from purchasing, you are defeating the purpose of reducing greenhouse gasses by not having them replace their H1 Hummers, V8 sports cars, and limos with Teslas. If the limits were lower, you would get into the area where the rebates would be useless. In order to get $7,500 in a tax rebate, you have to owe at least $7,500 in a year in taxes. If you don’t make much, you are in a lower tax bracket and may never even get close to the $7,500. A rebate is absolutely useless if you are trying to get poor people to adopt electric cars. They will never get the full rebate, if any of it at all. They need to make it straight cash back at the time of purchase, the same amount for everybody, none of this rebate bull:poop:.
 

jtr1962

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They need to make it straight cash back at the time of purchase, the same amount for everybody, none of this rebate bull:poop:.
I agree. I've said much the same thing for solar rebates. Tax credits are worthless when you owe little or no tax, which is the case for most poor people. It needs to be either a cash back rebate, or a refundable tax credit.
 

kerneldrop

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The diesel F-150 will run dry at around 100 miles.

I don't know about the diesel but the 3.5 ecoboost will tow that on flat land town-driving 11-12mpg.
Prob 13-14mpg on interstate.

I'd expect the 1/2 ton diesel to get a tad better than the ecoboost.

But it's a silly test because no one that really tows will buy an electric vehicle at this time.

That EV truck will be great for going to home depot and loading stuff in the back and getting them groceries.
 

jtr1962

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But it's a silly test because no one that really tows will buy an electric vehicle at this time.

That EV truck will be great for going to home depot and loading stuff in the back and getting them groceries.
Thank you, that's exactly it. You know who is the biggest market for these electric trucks? Well-heeled city dwellers/suburbanites driving them as virtue-signaling status symbols.

Anyone who actually uses a truck to do real work for now won't buy an electric. Of course, that may change 5 to 10 years down the road as we get larger batteries.
 

bykfixer

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Why don't they have alternators? Seriously.
Not just some kinetic energy brakes but an electric generating device that charges the battery via the transmission. As gears rotate like a combustion engine rotates the device runs the car so the battery is not depleted or even recharge what battery does get used such as times when the headlights and a/c are going.

Why not incorparate a small camping generator into the electric car? At idle many only use a half gallon of gasoline.

My sister says "my brakes recharge the battery" in her hybrid car to which I reply "and how much time do you spend braking?" Probably not very much.

My work truck idles a lot in order to keep a bunch of flashing lights powered along with a computer and at times a printer/scanner. Many of the traffic control items like directional lights on a crash truck, lights on an arrow board and changing message sign are powered via a solar panel about the size of the roof of a Toyota Camry. They have spare batteries but it's only 4 automotive sized numbers.

Why can't the hood of a family sedan be a solar panel? The hood of my big ole F-150 for that matter. Sure they wouldn't run the vehicle but it could recharge it while sitting or make it so no long periods of idle required on sunny days.

Why are we trying to re-invent the wheel when there's already wheels we can use if only some imagination is used?
662DEEEF-A4F0-4EEF-B384-82C124CC70CF.jpeg

Here's a drill driving a wheel for example
 
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jtr1962

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Why don't they have alternators? Seriously.
Not just some kinetic energy brakes but an electric generating device that charges the battery via the transmission. As gears rotate like a combustion engine rotates the device runs the car so the battery is not depleted or even recharge what battery does get used such as times when the headlights and a/c are going.

Why not incorparate a small camping generator into the electric car? At idle many only use a half gallon of gasoline.
Not a completely horrible idea. It gives you a failsafe if your battery is low and your house loses power. You even could use that same generator to power your house during a power failure in order to avoid draining your car's battery for the same purpose.
My sister says "my brakes recharge the battery" in her hybrid car to which I reply "and how much time do you spend braking?" Probably not very much.
I gather she doesn't live anywhere near the NY metro area. You often spend more time on the brake than the accelerator over here. :(
Why can't the hood of a family sedan be a solar panel? The hood of my big ole F-150 for that matter. Sure they wouldn't run the vehicle but it could recharge it while sitting or make it so no long periods of idle required on sunny days.
A few EVs already have that:


I think this idea will really come into its own as the more efficient solar cells get out of the lab. Right now, the best of these (i.e. The Lightyear One) only gets up to 20 miles a day range on solar charging alone. However, that could more than double once more efficient panels exist. 30 or 40 miles a day range just sitting while parked is seriously useful for many people. That more or less would cover my brother's daily commute.
Why are we trying to re-invent the wheel when there's already wheels we can use if only some imagination is used? View attachment 32971
Here's a drill driving a wheel for example
I ask myself that question often. Lack of imagination, institutional inertia, fear of change, etc.
 

Hooked on Fenix

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Thank you, that's exactly it. You know who is the biggest market for these electric trucks? Well-heeled city dwellers/suburbanites driving them as virtue-signaling status symbols.

Anyone who actually uses a truck to do real work for now won't buy an electric. Of course, that may change 5 to 10 years down the road as we get larger batteries.
Nobody I know would ever buy an electric truck, ever. They use their trucks for work, loading them down with tools equipment, and supplies. They get used long hours driving to and from jobs. Your truck is your way to get to work to make a living. Down time charging an electric vehicle means time you’re not getting paid for. A guy owning an electric truck for work is someone who will always be late, and the first to get fired. The only people who can afford electric trucks are those rich enough to not have to worry about getting fired or getting to work on time. For days off, my friends would use their trucks to haul campers or toy trailers out to the desert and go off-roading. Electric trucks with the heavy battery have poor ground clearance and weighed down shocks for off-roading, and probably can’t even get that far out into the middle of nowhere before having to be towed home. Much more convenient to be able to top off with a gas can than try to find a charger station in the desert. When people buy a truck, they want a vehicle that they can use for work, commuting, driving the family around, taking vacations, moving, and driving in adverse weather conditions. An electric truck barely does any of these well.
 

bykfixer

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Electric trucks have their place. Warehouses for example where they would be used to move trailers from incoming to be cleaned to the loading area. Now will the average Joe six pack Dodge Ram driving blue collar guy drive one for daily transportation? No time soon, no.

But over the road trucks will be electrified before much longer. It's on the way.
 

Hooked on Fenix

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Electric trucks have their place. Warehouses for example where they would be used to move trailers from incoming to be cleaned to the loading area. Now will the average Joe six pack Dodge Ram driving blue collar guy drive one for daily transportation? No time soon, no.

But over the road trucks will be electrified before much longer. It's on the way.
That would take a lot of investment in infrastructure for transmission and power generation to accomplish. I could see it maybe better in place in the next decade on the East and West coasts, but everything in between, other than Texas, will probably never have enough. In the midwest, there are frequent winds and storms that easily knock down power lines. Most likely, they would have to be buried (the power lines, not the trucks). That’s a lot of digging.
 

LEDphile

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Electric trucks have their place. Warehouses for example where they would be used to move trailers from incoming to be cleaned to the loading area. Now will the average Joe six pack Dodge Ram driving blue collar guy drive one for daily transportation? No time soon, no.

But over the road trucks will be electrified before much longer. It's on the way.
I suspect that local delivery and regional route trucks will be electrified before the trucks doing the longer routes. The vehicles are already available from many of the big names, and being based out of a depot (and having regular routes) makes the charging logistics significantly easier.
 

bykfixer

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Being the gubment is pushing for electric vehicles it makes sense they put their money where their mouth is....or rather our money where their mouth is.
 
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