why so much hate towards electric cars?

kaichu dento

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...the unfortunate left/right split we have. If the right got behind this stuff along with the left, much of the negativity would disappear.
I think you may only be half accurate. Left seems to support blindly, while most of the rest of us want it to work before buying in.

There are none that you see as blindly opposed who would not immediately adopt if it were already viable, and also available on the used market.
 

Hooked on Fenix

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That and the unfortunate left/right split we have. If the right got behind this stuff along with the left, much of the negativity would disappear.
Stop. Stop this now. Your argument that if everyone agreed with your point of view the world would be perfect is absolute garbage. We are free thinkers here, like it or not.

If everyone blindly spent all their money to invest in electric cars now, we would have issues. First, the tax base for the gas tax would collapse. They’d replace it with a mileage tax taxing your every mile by your car’s G.P.S. tracking (so the government could track your every move). Next, would be issues with the stability in the power grid from all those added electric cars. States would siphon back the power from your car back to the grid while you plug it in at night to stabilize the grid. In the morning, you’d always be late for work as you wait to charge the car up again (if you were ever able to use it). You’d be fired from your job in no time (so will everyone else). This is a likely outcome of your future utopia should everyone do what you want.

Luckily, this is not the case, as people decide what works best for them. Some buy trucks for carrying loads, some buy vans for carrying families, some buy smaller cars, hybrids, or electrics for city travel. With a mix of fuels and energy powering the vehicles, this doesn’t tax the power grid too much, pollute the air too much, or strain the supply chain too much. Most importantly, people get what works for their needs the first time so they don’t cause a bunch of waste in returns. No solution is perfect, but trying to impose your will or someone else’s on a population as opposed to letting people decide for themselves will have unintended consequences that will not yield a desired outcome.
 

jtr1962

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No, that was idleprocess deliberately distorting my post where I listed things that could get me interested. If you're going to argue against the rationale for 1,000 mile range so that the owner has a good deal of latitude regarding recharging schedules, and ability to drive a couple hundred miles to help mom with an emergency just after you get off work, then tell me how many times that you use a flashlight do you need it to remain on for the entire duration of your battery capacity?
I rarely use flashlights for more than a few minutes. My bigger concern is that the battery doesn't self-discharge in between uses because that's how rare my use is for most of my lights. A corner case might be a blackout where I'll need hours and hours of light, but when I see a hurricane coming I charge up a bunch of extra batteries for that eventuality. Note however that this is a corner case.

The one type of portable lighting I used regularly, namely my bike light, is a better match for your analogy. I ride at night almost all the time. Most of my rides fall in between the 1.5 to 2.5 hour band. I obviously want the battery to last at least that long. Point of fact the criteria I use is 5 hours at my normal brightness setting. That's a little longer than my longest rides which were about 4 hours and change. I figure that covers any possible scenario. It allows me to recharge every second or third ride for my most common uses. It also covers my worst case scenario. Note however that my worst-case scenario isn't something totally off the charts. It's only 2 or 3 times my normal use.

Those arguing for us to accept limited range on our cars should stop using batteries in their flashlights that have more runtime than they need for their average use. If the average is 20 seconds, then maybe that's all the battery capacity they need, by their own rationale when it comes to cars.
By the previous analogy, if I were a car owner I would use my average daily mileage as a starting point. That's more realistic than using average trip length, because most people take multiple trips per day, and they can't necessarily recharge after each trips. However, almost everyone can recharge their car overnight. So let's say the total of my trips on an average day is 50 miles. This is actually a little higher than the average daily use a car gets in the US. On the off chance I forget to charge one or two nights, or perhaps have an unusual day, I'd probably want a range at least 3 times my average, so say 150 miles. I'd also want to account for less than optimal conditions, so I'll even make it 4 times my average, or 200 miles. I wouldn't factor in if I might make any trips greatly exceeding the range of the vehicle because those would be corner cases. I'm not going to spend thousands of extra dollars for a larger battery which might only be useful to me less than once a year. If there's a need for an occasional trip greater than, say, 150 miles, I'd either see if I can plan it out with stops at fast-chargers, or just rent either a gas car, or an EV with much longer range.

I don't plan my life out for emergency scenarios, either. That's a great way to waste money on capabilities you'll seldom or never need. I figure if I'm a few hundred miles from my mom, she has friends or neighbors or even emergency responders there if something happens. I could still try to get there as quickly as humanly possible. With the EV I described, I might have to stop to quick charge for 20 or 30 minutes once or twice during the trip. So I get there an hour later than I otherwise would. Most true emergencies require help within minutes, so there's no way I'm getting there in time to truly help, regardless of the vehicle I use.
 

kaichu dento

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I rarely use flashlights for more than a few minutes.
That's nice, and we all like our lights to work, whether we need them longer than usual or forget to charge them.

I want my car to be able to go as far as I need with a good margin for the unforeseen in between.
 

jtr1962

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I think you may only be half accurate. Left seems to support blindly, while most of the rest of us want it to work before buying in.

There are none that you see as blindly opposed who would not immediately adopt if it were already viable, and also available on the used market.
As an engineer I'm usually the one who has to break it to people when their ideas just won't work. For example, hydrogen cars. There's a gazillion reasons why they're a failure technically, and most importantly economically. At best hydrogen will give us the equivalent of $5 per gallon gas but that's not something the public would consider a wonderful thing. But the idea just won't die because big oil wants to keep their monopoly on motor fuels, so they keep harping that BEVs are just a stepping stone to hydrogen cars, instead of the end solution. The left stopped most funding for them because they know they're a dead end. The numbers just don't work.

The numbers mostly do work for electric cars. The primary problems I see are a shortage of raw materials (for ICE cars also at this time), and producing enough cars so the efficiencies of mass production bring their costs in line with ICEs. The technical problems have mostly been solved. We have fast charging. It'll only get faster. We're at 200 to 600 miles range, which covers nearly all use scenarios. Again, that will only improve. In fact, we could have your 1,000 mile range right now if we didn't insist on making boxes. Aerodynamics gives you "free" range. That 300 mile car turns into a 1,000 mile car if you make it a slicker body shape.

What I don't like is FUD. Stuff like "batteries only last 60,000 miles". Tesla has a one million mile battery. Probably the battery will be the only part of the car with significant resale value when the rest is scrap. Or this harping on fires. Gas cars have more fires per capita.

Will there be problems in the transition? Absolutely. There were when we went from horses to cars. They're not insurmountable. More importantly, the adoption is occurring at a slow enough pace that any major kinks will be worked out before even 10% of the fleet is electric. Gas cars have been around for well over a century, but you still have occasional recalls. I imagine it'll be much the same with EVs. Nothing is ever perfect.

The technology mostly just works right now. This is the engineer in me speaking, not the idealist. The idea that we're blindly jumping in isn't supported by the evidence. If we were, 90% of the EVs on the road would be turning into paperweights.
 

desert.snake

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How many years have passed between the introduction of petrol cars and the development of the infrastructure to eazy drive across the country?

Until the infrastructure is developed, for long trips you will have to take a portable generator with you, on the roof or a small trailer. Something like this



Electric motors withstand much greater loads and are more reliable than any diesel engine. The same mining trucks - everything is electric, like submarines. There is only 1 problem - batteries



Although, if put atomic batteries on them, like on a Voyager, then the power reserve will be very long, though a little radioactive and very expensive

1660631494297.png
 

jtr1962

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Stop. Stop this now. Your argument that if everyone agreed with your point of view the world would be perfect is absolute garbage. We are free thinkers here, like it or not.

If everyone blindly spent all their money to invest in electric cars now, we would have issues. First, the tax base for the gas tax would collapse. They’d replace it with a mileage tax taxing your every mile by your car’s G.P.S. tracking (so the government could track your every move). Next, would be issues with the stability in the power grid from all those added electric cars. States would siphon back the power from your car back to the grid while you plug it in at night to stabilize the grid. In the morning, you’d always be late for work as you wait to charge the car up again (if you were ever able to use it). You’d be fired from your job in no time (so will everyone else). This is a likely outcome of your future utopia should everyone do what you want.

Luckily, this is not the case, as people decide what works best for them. Some buy trucks for carrying loads, some buy vans for carrying families, some buy smaller cars, hybrids, or electrics for city travel. With a mix of fuels and energy powering the vehicles, this doesn’t tax the power grid too much, pollute the air too much, or strain the supply chain too much. Most importantly, people get what works for their needs the first time so they don’t cause a bunch of waste in returns. No solution is perfect, but trying to impose your will or someone else’s on a population as opposed to letting people decide for themselves will have unintended consequences that will not yield a desired outcome.
We're NOT going from a few percent EVs to 100% overnight, so nothing you're saying here makes much sense. At best the full transition will take two decades. That's loads of time for the grid to adjust, the tax issues to adjust, etc. I'm skeptical of grid-to-vehicle, and in any case nobody is going to siphon power from your vehicle without your permission. The power companies will likely get people to allow this via financial incentives, not by fiat. Plus you'll also be able to set a minimum SOC below which they can't drain your battery to ensure you have enough charge for your daily uses.

I hope you know outside of highways most roads have always been paid for solely with local sales, income, or real estate taxes. Even highways are only partially paid for via a gas tax. General revenues cover about half IIRC. We just might move to a system where general revenues pay for everything. Or impose tolls to cover the lost gas tax. There's no need for GPS tracking your mileage. I prefer to keep things simple. Tolls have worked for centuries. That's the way to go.
 

Dave D

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There must be some folk still using their last century Nokia mobile phones, because they only need to charge it once a week, those new fangled smart phones need charging every night! :)
 

ampdude

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No hate from me, they are just not something I can afford unless I win the lottery. And I see more charging stations these days, but with the world the way it is, I don't want to plan my life around if I can find a charging station near where I want to go. Mr. Tesla who has billions and apparently that is not enough also wants to tell me how and where I can work (remote, or not) , so I think he can go pound sand.
 

kaichu dento

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We're at 200 to 600 miles range, which covers nearly all use scenarios. Again, that will only improve. In fact, we could have your 1,000 mile range right now if we didn't insist on making boxes. Aerodynamics gives you "free" range. That 300 mile car turns into a 1,000 mile car if you make it a slicker body shape.
Be nice when they get there, the let the trickle down happen so I can buy one on the used market. Still, what I really like the idea of, at least at present, is more hybrids, especially for those of us who like to buy our cars a couple years old for cash rather than having a payment leash.
 

jtr1962

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Be nice when they get there, the let the trickle down happen so I can buy one on the used market. Still, what I really like the idea of, at least at present, is more hybrids, especially for those of us who like to buy our cars a couple years old for cash rather than having a payment leash.
No argument there. New cars, whether ICE or EV, are the biggest ripoff going. I expect lots of people will wait until they can get a good, used EV relatively cheap.

I think EV conversions are going to be a big thing moving forward. Nowadays car bodies last forever. If you can keep a vehicle you like, and the EV conversion pays for itself after a few years, that's another way to go.
 

kaichu dento

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I think EV conversions are going to be a big thing moving forward. Nowadays car bodies last forever. If you can keep a vehicle you like, and the EV conversion pays for itself after a few years, that's another way to go.
I think they could pull in a lot of interest if they could do that and let us keep our favorite cars.
 

Lynx_Arc

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I just thought of another issue with EVs..... if in the future people are forced into them due to political extremism making gas vehicle owning and usage more expensive those people who rent and live in condos and apartments very likely won't be able to charge overnight unless property owners are required to install charging stations for them. There could be a huge industry of people just installing and servicing home charging systems and setting up some sort of charging station at condos and apartments. Imagine the cost of having a whole parking lot full of charging stations because every car in an apartment complex is EV and having cords hooked to vehicles unattended overnight could be a problem.
I'm not thrilled to leave a long cord connected to my car overnight as most garages of rental houses are full of stuff no room to pull in a car to charge it. Having to plan where you are going to find charging stations is going to be a mess till we see a lot more EV charging stations. Unless EV charging gets super speeds like a 15 minute recharge it cannot compete with gasoline. Gas vehicles can also put larger tanks I've talked to a relative that had dual 2 gallon tanks in his truck and back in the 70 drove to Mexico and bought gas filling both tanks and said he got it for about 1/3 to 1/2 the price of it in the US. In other words you can get 1000 miles without refilling in a gas vehicle but not recommended as you would have to fill extra gas containers. If your car runs out of gas you can have someone bring you a few gallons, but if an EV batteries are depleted I don't see most of them able to bring an extra battery to get it there, likely a portable generator to charge the battery up high enough or a wrecker to tow it to a charging station.

I've contemplated a solution for EVs..... easily replaceable (swappable) batteries. Imagine instead of driving to a charging station and waiting for a full charge to complete instead you go to a station and wait in line and they use a machine to remove your battery and replace it with one that is fully charged. This process could be done with about the same speed of filling up a tank of gas and if the batteries are tested you would likely have close to full range and keep it that way instead of having your battery slowly wear out and lose range. Now this would incur a cost that could make the cost per mile go up substantially but it would solve the battery issue with older vehicles but could leave vehicles open to total battery theft and would likely make it harder to design cars as they would have to all use the same universal battery system and some vehicles now have batteries as part of the frame so replacing these would be harder and more time consuming.

I think that in the future a business could be created to fast charge EVs remotely using a truck with a powerful generator or a massive external battery that would give EVs a boost to get them to the next charging station.
Essentially tow trucks would have to adapt or specialize to service EVs. What would be nice is to design EVs to accept plug in external batteries that would give you perhaps 10-20 more miles in an emergency that can be delivere and put in the trunk to get an EV instead of waiting for a remote charging to occur. We already have battery powered power stations to charge stuff and run small stuff, not sure how big of a power station would be needed to extend an EVs range enough to make them useful in an emergency but look for them to be sold in the future if they are powerful enough.
 

raggie33

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i hope are landscapers go electric 5 hours a week are ruined by the noise...
 

SCEMan

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I bought a hybrid vehicle last year since being retired most of my driving is around town and 80% of the time on the electric motor. But with my former profession as a utility contingency planner, and having experienced frequent blackouts (planned & unplanned), I wasn't going to rely solely on one power source. Maybe someday, but I doubt utility distribution grid maintenance will keep pace with the aging 20th century circuits and ever growing demand. And, for those living in high risk areas, more utilities will be implementing high fire/wind power outages. What practical options will the average EV owner have during periods of extended power loss?

I don't doubt that viable solutions will exist sometime down the road, but based on current progress they won't be widely available in my lifetime.
 
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kaichu dento

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I've contemplated a solution for EVs..... easily replaceable (swappable) batteries. Imagine instead of driving to a charging station and waiting for a full charge to complete instead you go to a station and wait in line and they use a machine to remove your battery and replace it with one that is fully charged. This process could be done with about the same speed of filling up a tank of gas and if the batteries are tested you would likely have close to full range and keep it that way instead of having your battery slowly wear out and lose range. Now this would incur a cost that could make the cost per mile go up substantially but it would solve the battery issue with older vehicles but could leave vehicles open to total battery theft and would likely make it harder to design cars as they would have to all use the same universal battery system and some vehicles now have batteries as part of the frame so replacing these would be harder and more time consuming.
Great post overall and I really like the idea of this possibility, but I assume that with the expense and limited lifetime of all batteries that you'd really want some extensive battery evaluation going on each time too so that you'd pay for the battery swap according to the condition of the two batteries being exchanged.
 
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