why so much hate towards electric cars?

Lynx_Arc

Flashaholic
Joined
Oct 1, 2004
Messages
11,201
Location
Tulsa,OK
Because they can't already do that via your mobile phone right?
Not if you drive around without your phone and don't allow them to install an app to do that. It also would be hard to distinguish between what car etc you are moving in and will they charge you for taking a bus somewhere etc. No they would need to have it vehicle based so even if someone else with their phone was driving it that didn't own the vehicle or an EV could be taxed appropriately
 

Lynx_Arc

Flashaholic
Joined
Oct 1, 2004
Messages
11,201
Location
Tulsa,OK
Great post overall and I really like the idea of this possibility, but I assume that with the expense and limited lifetime of all batteries that you'd really want some extensive battery evaluation going on each time too so that you'd pay for the battery swap according to the condition of the two batteries being exchanged.
two words: smart batteries
 

Jay R

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
1,650
Location
Bracknell, England.
Not if you drive around without your phone and don't allow them to install an app to do that. It also would be hard to distinguish between what car etc you are moving in and will they charge you for taking a bus somewhere etc. No they would need to have it vehicle based so even if someone else with their phone was driving it that didn't own the vehicle or an EV could be taxed appropriately
Think you missed the point on that one. Original poster stated that he didn't want the govenment knowing his every move, a comment that is clearly non specific and implys that he doesn't want to be tracked by the govenment and yet (I assume) he carries a cell phone everywhere so the govenment can track him any time it feels like.
I don't know why people complain so much about having their freedoms taken away when they give them up freely in exchange for convenience. Use a debit or credit card, everyone know what you are shopping, have cable, everyone knows what you are watching, have a cell phone, everyone knows where you are going, etc... And don't even get me started on doorbell cameras and Alexa...
 

Lynx_Arc

Flashaholic
Joined
Oct 1, 2004
Messages
11,201
Location
Tulsa,OK
Think you missed the point on that one. Original poster stated that he didn't want the govenment knowing his every move, a comment that is clearly non specific and implys that he doesn't want to be tracked by the govenment and yet (I assume) he carries a cell phone everywhere so the govenment can track him any time it feels like.
I don't know why people complain so much about having their freedoms taken away when they give them up freely in exchange for convenience. Use a debit or credit card, everyone know what you are shopping, have cable, everyone knows what you are watching, have a cell phone, everyone knows where you are going, etc... And don't even get me started on doorbell cameras and Alexa...
Yeah people don't realize that if the government really wants to track you that you would have to live literally nowhere and give up on socializing with anyone at all. What I find disconcerting is all these car insurance companies that bribe you to install a tracking app with insurance discounts which I won't do because if you ever get into a pickle the courts could subpoena your app records. I could see a court using this to determine where you are not just driving habits. Tracking is less an issue than recording the tracking. I think for the time being the average person is not worried about most tracking but just doesn't want to opt in for it if they knowingly are told about it.
 

bridgman

Enlightened
CPF Supporter
Joined
Dec 30, 2006
Messages
379
Location
Toronto, Canada
That would be smart aleck batteries to you as alkaleaks could barely power a backup light for a long drive unless the trunk was full of AAs
Yep, I was thinking trunk full of alkaleaks. Whenever I go into a big box store I'm baffled by how many alkaline batteries are up for sale... I figure we must have passed "peak alkaline" a decade ago and yet they are still selling like crazy. They must be accumulating somewhere...
 

bykfixer

Flashaholic
CPF Supporter
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
16,781
Location
My own little Idaho
Yep, I was thinking trunk full of alkaleaks. Whenever I go into a big box store I'm baffled by how many alkaline batteries are up for sale... I figure we must have passed "peak alkaline" a decade ago and yet they are still selling like crazy. They must be accumulating somewhere...
98F5F229-E8A3-44FC-ADBB-11970EC2B49B.jpeg

Here's why
Low drain medical devices mostly
 

Lynx_Arc

Flashaholic
Joined
Oct 1, 2004
Messages
11,201
Location
Tulsa,OK
Yep, I was thinking trunk full of alkaleaks. Whenever I go into a big box store I'm baffled by how many alkaline batteries are up for sale... I figure we must have passed "peak alkaline" a decade ago and yet they are still selling like crazy. They must be accumulating somewhere...
Pretty much anything disposable stores love to sell because they get repeat buyers of that same item. If you think about it a store may sell one flashlight and make a few dollars on it and you don't need to buy another flashlight but if the light is powered by disposable batteries then they will glady sell you them over and over and make a fortune off the batteries. This is why you don't see a huge disparity in rechargeable batteries (not including tools) vs primaries. I think purposely even when the companies sell rechargeable flashlights they tend to sell higher cost models so as the price difference discourages people who are ignorant of the tech from buying them. With USB rechargeable batteries and protected cells and built in charging to not see a market for lithium ion batteries replaceable batteries and devices more mainstream while tool batteries using the same tech sell like mad is almost mind boggling. People will spend $100 on a 18-24v etc tool battery and skimp on a hand held flashlight buying one that uses D alkaleaks or AA alkaspews instead of an 18650 or 21700 which are in most tool batteries. I've looked at stores that sell nimh batteries and they don't have blow out sales on them and chargers..... ever. They are almost never on sale and usually on a rack somewhere less obvious while piles of alkaleaks are overflowing in a bin.. bricks of 10, 20 or a truckload even perhaps. The sad thing you can't buy a single bare 18650 battery at any major store is (to me) a testament to how stupid these environmental activists are these day. Imagine how many less alkaleaks would be in landfills. Thank God for people using tool batteries to power a lot more devices that normally would be powered by leakalines endlessly. A lantern or flashlight or radio or whatever saves lots of primary cells. What I would like to see is more tool battery power adapters, that is devices expertly made to safely power things that have a DC input jack like 6v and 9v etc so that corded older battery radio or baby monitor can be powered by a 20V Max etc battery instead of primaries or waiting for a better designed model that incorporates rechargeable tech to come to market.

Come to think of it.... instead of alkaleaks to power an electric vehicle how about massive tool batteries or lawn too batteries like 40, 60, or 80v ones. It probably still need over half a trunk full and cost a few thousand to get you half way across the city in an emergency however.
 

bykfixer

Flashaholic
CPF Supporter
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
16,781
Location
My own little Idaho
i dont think alks are as bad as most you think id guess less then .1 perecnt fail so like 1 in 1000 at the most
In the time I've been a member here I've had 2 Rayovac aaa batteries leak. One was a gray wrapper sitting in my battery museum and the other a blue/silver one in a Bushnell 1 x aaa light. Duracell and Energizers I've had a few aa, aaa and D size. No C size.

I keep check on dozens of lights loaded with US made Rayovacs and so far so good.

I bought a 12 pack of Radio Shack orange and white wrapper and had some of those leak while in the package. The fung-chuey generic type that come in remote controls or $2 lights? They leak like a sieve.

Not long ago I found a SureFire CR 123 had leaked in the box. And an old ultimate lithium I had in a clock in my un-climate controled garage had leaked.
 

Lynx_Arc

Flashaholic
Joined
Oct 1, 2004
Messages
11,201
Location
Tulsa,OK
i dont think alks are as bad as most you think id guess less then .1 perecnt fail so like 1 in 1000 at the most
My experience has been this: I very seriously doubt I've even gone through 1000 alkaleaks in my lifetime and I've experienced dozens (no, not a single dozen) of leaks in my lifetime. I may have gone through 700 or so perhaps but when I was growing up devices taking AA and AAAs were purposely used sparingly we used larger cells C/D and 6V lantern batteries and when fluorescent lighting matured I relied on it a lot more which greatly reduced battery usage as it is 4-5 times more efficient with power. LEDs and nimh reduced my usage of alkaleaks even more. I currently have 2AAA Walmart generic 2AA heavy duty, 9v rayovac and generic alkaleaks and 3 rayovac HD 9V in stock. I probably need to buy a 4 pack of alkaleaks and 4pack of AAAs also as now that gas it a lot more expensive I find I need to stock up a little better to save money.
 

Repsol600rr

Enlightened
Joined
May 7, 2016
Messages
320
Going back to the post about swapping batteries at somewhere to get a fully charged one, they do that somewhere (china?) For taxis. The battery is a swappable unit under the car. It drives into a garage and is lifted up, the battery is pulled out of the bottom and a new one slid Into place, and then the vehicle is dropped and goes on its way. I can't remember the details of costs and how it all goes but that's the general idea. It makes sense on standardized fleet vehicles. But look at how phones are going now with non replaceable batteries and such so I doubt that it'll happen with various makes and models of passenger vehicle. I wouldn't mind it in my personal vehicle if I were to go electric which I will some day as a secondary commuter vehicle. Have a second battery fully charged on standby and the ability to rotate for longer life of each. But it's unlikely.
 

Lynx_Arc

Flashaholic
Joined
Oct 1, 2004
Messages
11,201
Location
Tulsa,OK
Going back to the post about swapping batteries at somewhere to get a fully charged one, they do that somewhere (china?) For taxis. The battery is a swappable unit under the car. It drives into a garage and is lifted up, the battery is pulled out of the bottom and a new one slid Into place, and then the vehicle is dropped and goes on its way. I can't remember the details of costs and how it all goes but that's the general idea. It makes sense on standardized fleet vehicles. But look at how phones are going now with non replaceable batteries and such so I doubt that it'll happen with various makes and models of passenger vehicle. I wouldn't mind it in my personal vehicle if I were to go electric which I will some day as a secondary commuter vehicle. Have a second battery fully charged on standby and the ability to rotate for longer life of each. But it's unlikely.
Another idea is to make it so an auxilliary battery can be connected that is designed as such like fits in the trunk or something that can more easily be swapped in/out and has substantial enough capacity to get to a local destination. These aux batteries could be standardized across vehicles so you only need a few sizes to fit everything and one could purchase a contract and pay regularly for the ability or one time emergency use and when done give it back to a local dealer etc.
 

Lynx_Arc

Flashaholic
Joined
Oct 1, 2004
Messages
11,201
Location
Tulsa,OK
I've read that electric vehicles are heavier than gas vehicles..... if this is true then could wear out and damage roads more than a gas counterpart and thus should perhaps pay more "taxes" for road usage. For now they are only taxed by the tag/title agencies. If a gas vehicle averages 20 miles/gallon and taxes are lets say 50 cents a gallon and it drives 100 miles that is $2.50. Now if that vehicle weight 10% less than an electric vehicle then should the electric vehicle pay $2.75 per 100 miles for roads? I've quickly googled.... and EVs weigh from 500 to 750 lbs more than their gas counterparts. One other page relates a 20-30% difference in weight..... that could equate to instead of $2.50, the EV pays $3.00 to $3.25 per 100 miles. Figure over 100,000 miles at this tax rate a gas car at 2.5 cents a mile in taxes would pay 2500 while an EV pays 3000-3250 now this isn't huge if the car takes 10 years to do that it equates to $250 to $325 a year.

The math on this is interesting and a lot of variables likely make these numbers inaccurate some states have less taxes on gas and some more but consider having roads handle 20-30% more weight over time and if that will cost a lot more to build them to handle that and they will last a lot less longer. If we get tractor trailers powered by batteries it could be devastating to roads in some places and would greatly restrict the amount of cargo they could pull and thus this increased cost could be passed on to consumers plus they could have higher road taxes on them due to even unloaded (empty) they are heavier. To extend range farther could see even more weight added.... meaning to travel farther without charging they may only have to reduce the cargo even more.

Do heavier vehicles wear tires out faster or require more expensive tire replacements or larger tires? I've also heard an argument that these heavier vehicles are more dangerous in that if they are in an accident the other car will take considerablyl more damage from it . Will there be more deaths in vehicle accidents involving them? The answer to these questions will come in time I guess.
 

jtr1962

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 22, 2003
Messages
6,624
Location
Flushing, NY
Going back to the post about swapping batteries at somewhere to get a fully charged one, they do that somewhere (china?) For taxis. The battery is a swappable unit under the car. It drives into a garage and is lifted up, the battery is pulled out of the bottom and a new one slid Into place, and then the vehicle is dropped and goes on its way. I can't remember the details of costs and how it all goes but that's the general idea. It makes sense on standardized fleet vehicles. But look at how phones are going now with non replaceable batteries and such so I doubt that it'll happen with various makes and models of passenger vehicle. I wouldn't mind it in my personal vehicle if I were to go electric which I will some day as a secondary commuter vehicle. Have a second battery fully charged on standby and the ability to rotate for longer life of each. But it's unlikely.
Highly unlikely is my guess. The need for battery swapping, or super quick recharging, becomes less and less as range increases. Think about it. We'll probably get to 1,000 mile range with lithium-sulfur or some other chemistry. Once you drive 1,000 miles you're done for the day anyway. You need a full night's sleep, shower, and good meal. So that's 10 hours for the vehicle to recharge. No need for quick charge or battery swapping.

The calculus might be a little different for a fleet vehicle that's running for two or three shifts. Here swappable batteries might still make sense. Or quick charge. If you can get to 80% when the driver is on a 15 minute break that works also. Buses can do a bunch of micro-recharges at bus stops, or at the ends of a run, so that's another possibility for some use cases. BTW, China has 421,000 electric buses currently in use. Commercial vehicles also provide a good test platform to work out any kinks before the technology trickles down to automobiles.
 

jtr1962

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 22, 2003
Messages
6,624
Location
Flushing, NY
I've read that electric vehicles are heavier than gas vehicles..... if this is true then could wear out and damage roads more than a gas counterpart and thus should perhaps pay more "taxes" for road usage. For now they are only taxed by the tag/title agencies. If a gas vehicle averages 20 miles/gallon and taxes are lets say 50 cents a gallon and it drives 100 miles that is $2.50. Now if that vehicle weight 10% less than an electric vehicle then should the electric vehicle pay $2.75 per 100 miles for roads? I've quickly googled.... and EVs weigh from 500 to 750 lbs more than their gas counterparts. One other page relates a 20-30% difference in weight..... that could equate to instead of $2.50, the EV pays $3.00 to $3.25 per 100 miles. Figure over 100,000 miles at this tax rate a gas car at 2.5 cents a mile in taxes would pay 2500 while an EV pays 3000-3250 now this isn't huge if the car takes 10 years to do that it equates to $250 to $325 a year.
Actually how much vehicles wear out roads is more or less proportional to weight to the fourth power. Basically, semis and buses are responsible for 99% of road wear. Worrying about the weight difference of EVs versus ICEs is tinkering at the margins. I guess someone can do the math for how much extra wear an EV causes versus an equivalent ICE, but I'll bet over the course of a year it's a few dollars top.
If we get tractor trailers powered by batteries it could be devastating to roads in some places and would greatly restrict the amount of cargo they could pull and thus this increased cost could be passed on to consumers plus they could have higher road taxes on them due to even unloaded (empty) they are heavier. To extend range farther could see even more weight added.... meaning to travel farther without charging they may only have to reduce the cargo even more.
Semis by law are limited to 80,000 pounds in most places. They're not going to exempt EV semis from that because it would mean beefing up a lot of bridges. Besides, the diesel engine in a semi weighs something like two tons. Add in a few hundred gallons of fuel, plus the transmission, you easily have another 1.5 tons. 3.5 tons at maybe 180 Wh/kg equals an ~600 kW-hr battery. That's about the size needed on a semi. So basically it's a wash, give or take a few hundred pounds. They'll most likely try to make the structure of the truck lighter so they can fit in a bigger battery given the weight limits.
Do heavier vehicles wear tires out faster or require more expensive tire replacements or larger tires? I've also heard an argument that these heavier vehicles are more dangerous in that if they are in an accident the other car will take considerablyl more damage from it . Will there be more deaths in vehicle accidents involving them? The answer to these questions will come in time I guess.
Shape matters more than weight. Even a subcompact striking a pedestrian or cyclist is more or less similar to being hit by a moving wall in terms of momentum change. The tall, blunt front ends on a lot of SUVs and pickups are what is far more dangerous to pedestrians/cyclists than their weight. If an aero sedan hits someone, they'll most likely ride up the hood and avoid the brunt of the impact. Maybe they'll end up with broken legs but they'll live. Get hit by a tall SUV or pickup of the same weight, closed casket funeral.

If you're talking vehicle on vehicle impacts, then weight comes into it somewhat but fact is even the heaviest SUV is going to be outclassed by a semi. Or put another way, you can't buy yourself much safety by getting a heavier vehicle, plus you put those in lighter vehicles in more danger when your do.
 
Top