Why the U.S. may not get Eneloops

[Martini]

Being the rabid energy consumers that we are, I figured Sanyo would be quite anxious to bring the Eneloops to the U.S. So I couldn't figure out why I was having to order them from Singapore. Then I read something interesting. I haven't got anything official from Sanyo yet, but apparently the Eneloop's self-discharge rate is temperature-dependent. They must be kept under 38ºC (100.4ºF) or they will self-discharge at the same rate as standard NiMHs. The problem here is that the Eneloop is marketed as a direct replacement for dry cells, i.e., they are supposed to be ready for use right out of the package. So Sanyo has two options if they bring the Eneloop to America:

1. Let the batteries self-discharge in the back of a hot truck, and drop one of the Eneloop's selling points.
2. Ship them in refrigerated trucks and increase the price to compensate.

#2 is still not a total solution, as the batteries could spend plenty of time in uncontrolled environments such as stock rooms, etc. So I can see how the execs at Sanyo might be having a hard time deciding what to do (or whether to market the Eneloop here at all).

 

[x2x3x2]

The daily temp in SG averages between 32-34ºC in the day. I don't think there shoudl be any problem in the US?

 

[formicae]

Eneloops are coming to North America. There are ads in this month's issues of Popular Science, Popular Photography, Good Housekeeping (!), and Oprah Magazine (!!!). Some of them state that the batteries are now available at Fry's and amazon.com -- which they aren't, but given the 2-3 month lead time for these magazines, I'm guessing they were planning on a late-summer/early-fall launch.

Feel free to check out www.eneloopcontest.com, which has a contest (go figure) as well as some information. The whole site is pretty terribly written (some of the testimonials actually made me laugh out loud), but still.

 

[MrAl]

VERY interesting !! I had a feeling there was a catch to all this... now i know
what it is.
Even if they do get here, i see that 100 degree problem a little nasty. I am
going to have to re think my intended use for these things now.

Heck, every light i can think of well get a little warm when it is running.
The cells will easily reach 100 degrees.

Wow, i am so glad i waited now.

Also, so i guess i can go ahead and buy that 15 minute charger that does
ordinary cells huh? ha ha.

 

[Erasmus]

Feel free to check out www.eneloopcontest.com, which has a contest (go figure) as well as some information. The whole site is pretty terribly written (some of the testimonials actually made me laugh out loud), but still.

There's a dealerlist on that website. Amazon and Fry's Electronics don't have them on stock but RitzCamera.com already has them : http://www.ritzcamera.com/webapp/wc...logId=10001&langId=-1&keyword=eneloop&x=0&y=0

When you subscribe for the contest, you will finally get this message :

Keep an eye out for eneloop rechargeable batteries at Fry's Electronics, Amazon.com and other fine retailers starting September 1st, 2006.

 

[eluminator]

One thing isn't clear. If what you are saying is that if an eneloop should ever exceed 100 °F for an instant, it will forever more self discharge at the rapid rate of a normal NiMH, then that would be a problem.

If you are saying that cells stored above 100 °F will self discharge at the rapid rate only as long as their temperature exceeds 100 °F, then that's no problem.

No cell should be stored at such a high temperature if it can be avoided. I store all my spare cells in the refrigerator.

 

[Erasmus]

One thing isn't clear. If what you are saying is that if an eneloop should ever exceed 100 °F for an instant, it will forever more self discharge at the rapid rate of a normal NiMH, then that would be a problem.

If you are saying that cells stored above 100 °F will self discharge at the rapid rate only as long as their temperature exceeds 100 °F, then that's no problem.

No cell should be stored at such a high temperature if it can be avoided. I store all my spare cells in the refrigerator.

I don't know if they will always self-discharge faster from the moment they have once exceeded 100°F (I would really be surprised if that's true), but they claim to be 'ready to use' out of the package, which could not be achieved when the self-discharging process was started during transportation.

 

[Martini]

x2x3x2, the U.S. is a very big country. This seems obvious, but for anyone outside of the U.S. or Russia, it's hard to understand. For instance, I've driven 700 miles (1125 km) to visit a friend. I know people who drive 80 km to work every day. We are very spread out. We have as many different sub-climates here as all of Europe. Some places almost never get to 30ºC. But where I live, it gets as high as 45ºC in the shade. I've heard of it getting up to 60ºC inside parked cars (a lot of people leave their windows up because it rains during all four seasons). I'm sure it could get that hot in the back of a truck, too.

Thanks for the heads-up, formicae. I haven't read any of those magazines lately (Oprah never). The English on that sight is actually pretty good, considering the vastly different construction of Japanese. I did notice that not all of the testimonials were specific to Eneloops. Why did they include that guy talking about a 24-year-old battery???

I don't think that batteries heating up during use will be much of an issue. The battery is not ruined by overheating, it just temporarily reverts to the normal NiMH self-discharge rate (~3% per day). If the light is on for, say, an hour, that's a loss of 1/8 of 1% capacity in addition to however much energy was consumed. As soon as the battery cools again, it's good to go. So it's no worse than a standard NiMH when it's hot, and a lot better when it's cool.

I'm really looking forward to seeing higher capacity Eneloop AAs. 2500mAh would be nice. The AAAs aren't really much of a downgrade; they are 800mAh, and I was using 850mAh NiMHs before. The self-discharge rate more than makes up for the 50mAh.

Oh, and MrAl, according to SilverFox, the Eneloop AAAs work fine in the Energizer 15 min. charger. At least, I think that's what I read.

 

[MrAl]

Hi again,

Yeah, i would believe that the self discharge varies with temperature, so that
it is faster when the cells are over 100 deg F but slower when below that.
I guess it would be worth trying a set.

It's nice to know the E cells work in the 15 min charger, thanks for that info.

 

[Jay R]

x2x3x2, the U.S. is a very big country. This seems obvious, but for anyone outside of the U.S. or Russia, it's hard to understand. For instance, I've driven 700 miles (1125 km) to visit a friend.

Why do you think it would be hard to understand? I live in England and have driven 952 miles in one day to go to a friends villa in Spain. In fact, if you drive East from the West coast of the States you have to stop after what, 2,900 miles?? Do that from the East coast of France and you have barely left Western Europe. You won't hit the coast for well over double that.

Remember that in Western Europe, many people quite happily drive through five or six countries on holiday. If Eneloops are either shipped to, or made in, Portugal or Spain for instance, they may well sit in a lorry for thousands of miles before reaching their destination.

The same holds true for Africa, South America, Asia, Australia, etc...

 

[VWTim]

He's just explaining the driving differences between countries. I have friends in England and they were worried that we wouldn't want to drive 250 miles to pick them up at the airport for vacation. As a generalization American's drive more per year on average.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Martini,

Being the rabid energy consumers that we are, I figured Sanyo would be quite anxious to bring the Eneloops to the U.S. So I couldn't figure out why I was having to order them from Singapore. Then I read something interesting. I haven't got anything official from Sanyo yet, but apparently the Eneloop's self-discharge rate is temperature-dependent. They must be kept under 38ºC (100.4ºF) or they will self-discharge at the same rate as standard NiMHs. The problem here is that the Eneloop is marketed as a direct replacement for dry cells, i.e., they are supposed to be ready for use right out of the package. So Sanyo has two options if they bring the Eneloop to America:

1. Let the batteries self-discharge in the back of a hot truck, and drop one of the Eneloop's selling points.
2. Ship them in refrigerated trucks and increase the price to compensate.

#2 is still not a total solution, as the batteries could spend plenty of time in uncontrolled environments such as stock rooms, etc. So I can see how the execs at Sanyo might be having a hard time deciding what to do (or whether to market the Eneloop here at all).

You are correct that the design calls for storing below 100 F, however this temperature is not a critical switch. The hotter the storage temperature, the faster the rate of self discharge. Their tests were done at room temperature and I have not seen any test results at higher temperatures, so there is some speculation involved with this. I have used these cells in hot conditions (camera in the car with the windows rolled up and ambient temperatures in the lower 90's F) and have not noticed any problems. This is not a formal test, just an observation.

Keep in mind that Energizer recommends a storage temperature below 86 F for their NiMh cells.

Also, keep in mind that at higher temperatures the self discharge rate of all NiMh cells goes up. We are seeing around a 0.7% per day self discharge rate for the current NiMh cells at room temperatures, that can go up to 5% per day (or higher) at higher temperatures.

I believe they are shipping (and trucking) their cells in refrigerated containers. I am not sure how much that adds to the cost, but have heard that they are trying to negotiate a "special deal" with the shippers because while their shipment is classified as "perishable," it does not require special priority treatment (as with fruits and vegetables) and the temperature requirements are simply to keep the product below 100 F.

I have not heard of any special requirements for the retailers, but wouldn't it be interesting to find Eneloop cells next to Sobe drinks in the cooler...

Tom

 

[Codeman]

...
I have not heard of any special requirements for the retailers, but wouldn't it be interesting to find Eneloop cells next to Sobe drinks in the cooler...

Tom

:lolsign:

 

[Jay R]

He's just explaining the driving differences between countries. I have friends in England and they were worried that we wouldn't want to drive 250 miles to pick them up at the airport for vacation. As a generalization American's drive more per year on average.

OK, fair comment then. However, trucking goods isn't the same as daytripping. It get's just as hot in the back of a truck doing 1000 miles across Europe as it does doing 1000 miles across the States. I can't believe that they haven't already thought of this and figured it's not a problem.

 

[greenLED]

They must be kept under 38ºC (100.4ºF) or they will self-discharge at the same rate as standard NiMHs.

I'm not sure I see the issue here.

- not every body keeps all their batteries in their cars
- those high temps are not constant throughout the year
- lots of other goods need special shipping and storage requirements

 

[Brighteyez]

I don't really think that has much to do with it. And as others have mentioned, Singapore is just off of the Equator. It is warm to hot, and humid, all year round, and there aren't any real seasons.

I'm more inclined to think that the reason that you can't find them, may have to do with the fact that Sanyo batteries don't really have a distribution network in the U.S. The only place that has ever sold Sanyo batteries on an actual retail basis in any number was Costco when they were carrying that charger and battery bundled package earlier.

I haven't got anything official from Sanyo yet, but apparently the Eneloop's self-discharge rate is temperature-dependent.

 

[Codeman]

Wolf camera stocks Sanyo, at least our local store does.

 

[jar3ds]

now... for some eneloops that can handle high discharge rates like the CBP1650's... that would be something amazing

 

[Brighteyez]

Oops, yes, it was mentioned above that Ritz Cameras is indeed carrying the Eneloops. Can't say that GE/Sanyo as a company has really been able to get any footing in leading national retailers (i.e. Wal*Mart, Home Depot, Target), though the presence in Costco does count as an appearance in one of the top 10.

Wolf camera stocks Sanyo, at least our local store does.

 

[Codeman]

My local store doesn't have them in stock yet. They said they may have some next Tuesday. Which might be possible, if the website's claim of them being in stock today is correct.

Other than the Eneloop and Maha MH-C801D & MH-C808M chargers, does anyone know if there's a reason not to use other chargers, such as the Triton? Tom, any thoughts on it?