Will I turn into a Maglite fan once again?

[Chicken Drumstick]

ML25LT is 192 lumens according to Maglite:
https://maglite.com/collections/mid-size/products/ml25lt-2c-led-flashlight

AA Mini Mag is 351 lumens
https://maglite.com/collections/compact-size/products/mini-maglite-pro-plus-led-2aa-holster-pack

 

[xxo]

I have never figured out where this fits into the generational designation but it seems like an outlier to me. I would like to have one. http://www.led-resource.com/2012/12/maglite-pro-2d-led-flashlight-review/
Between the "drop in" led d cell and the ML series was a 136 lumen and 168 lumen, then came the ML. Any ideas?

I see it as a 2nd gen, it's the same as the other 2nd gen 2D Mag LEDs, the only difference is that it used a XP-G LED instead of a Rebel or XP-E like on the standard/non-pro 2nd gen lights.

 

[xxo]

ML25LT is 192 lumens according to Maglite:
https://maglite.com/collections/mid-size/products/ml25lt-2c-led-flashlight

AA Mini Mag is 351 lumens
https://maglite.com/collections/compact-size/products/mini-maglite-pro-plus-led-2aa-holster-pack

Again, Lumens are not brightness. It's kind of like thinking a vehicle is faster just because it gets lower gas mileage. If that were true, a dump truck would out run a Ducati motorcycle. Traditionally candlepower (now called candela) was use to measure flashlight brightness (not a perfect measure but far better than lumens for a light with a focused beam). Surefire was the first to promote lumens for flashlights, because their lights back in the day had high lumens and low candlepower.


The 192 lumen ML25 has 28473 cd while the 351 lumen Pro PLUS that you linked to has only 8148, again no contest and that's before you factor in the superior beam pattern of the ML25 and the ugly blue tint that the latest/highest lumen Mini Mag Pros have.

 

[bykfixer]

I'll use my Pelican 2350's as an example. The first gen was 100 lumens and stated 19k+ candella. The next generation was 175 lumens and stated 9k+ candella. Same light, same body, just different LED. I use the gen one to see off in the distance in say, a portion of my neighbors back yard three doors down and the gen two for say, lighting up my entire back yard.

That's pretty much the way I see the ML25 versus the Minimag AA. One was meant to spread light out more evenly while the other was intended to spread light a lot farther. A WHOLE lot farther. In SureFire terms you could say MaxVision vs their TIR system. Whichever one works best is up to the buyer.

The XL50 is somewhere in between the ML25 and Minimag AA in my view that leans more toward throw than total spread.

 

[xxo]

I'll use my Pelican 2350's as an example. The first gen was 100 lumens and stated 19k+ candella. The next generation was 175 lumens and stated 9k+ candella. Same light, same body, just different LED. I use the gen one to see off in the distance in say, a portion of my neighbors back yard three doors down and the gen two for say, lighting up my entire back yard.

That's pretty much the way I see the ML25 versus the Minimag AA. One was meant to spread light out more evenly while the other was intended to spread light a lot farther. A WHOLE lot farther. In SureFire terms you could say MaxVision vs their TIR system. Whichever one works best is up to the buyer.

The XL50 is somewhere in between the ML25 and Minimag AA in my view that leans more toward throw than total spread.

Don't get me wrong I like the Mini Mag Pros - I have a MM Pro Plus that I use a lot, mostly in low mode inside, but since I got my first ML25 it really opened my eyes and got me to stop chasing lumens and concentrate on beam pattern and throw.

As for lighting up a backyard, the MM Pros are still not the best, simply because the spill is too small, forcing you to move the light and scan to see everything....kinda reminds me of looking through a pipe. But yeah, I get your point about different beams being useful for different things.

 

[bykfixer]

I definitely prefer the ML25 over the modern minimag. I did order a spectrum warm one though as it doesn't tout a ton of lumens. My thought is it's like an incan but better. I also found an nip with a luxeon rebel from 2010. I already have one but it's black and the package says blue so I never opened it.

 

[xxo]

I definitely prefer the ML25 over the modern minimag. I did order a spectrum warm one though as it doesn't tout a ton of lumens. My thought is it's like an incan but better. I also found an nip with a luxeon rebel from 2010. I already have one but it's black and the package says blue so I never opened it.

A Spectrum ML25 would be pretty cool, same for the ML300 and ML50.


I used to see a lot of mislabeled colors on Mags at walmart back in the 90's when they had a bunch of special colors – many were marked black or assorted or something like that. Even more recently I have seen different color LED Mags at home depot that were marked black.


BTW, I thought of something where the higher lumen Mini Mag Pro might do better than the ML25 – candle mode. If you wanted to light up a room in candle mode with the head removed to use as a stand, the Pro would be brighter, though both are way too bright for me already. Even in low mode they are kinda bright to look out without some sort of shade or defuser.....I usually just ceiling bounce them. Anyway I don't want to sound to harsh on the Mini Mag Pros – they are very good 2 AA lights, it's just that they come off second best when compared to the ML25, as any 2 AA light would.

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

Again, Lumens are not brightness. It's kind of like thinking a vehicle is faster just because it gets lower gas mileage. If that were true, a dump truck would out run a Ducati motorcycle. Traditionally candlepower (now called candela) was use to measure flashlight brightness (not a perfect measure but far better than lumens for a light with a focused beam). Surefire was the first to promote lumens for flashlights, because their lights back in the day had high lumens and low candlepower.


The 192 lumen ML25 has 28473 cd while the 351 lumen Pro PLUS that you linked to has only 8148, again no contest and that's before you factor in the superior beam pattern of the ML25 and the ugly blue tint that the latest/highest lumen Mini Mag Pros have.

Surely lumen is brightness, it is about the total volume or quantity of light. Candela is about intensity, i.e. how focused or concentrated the light is. High intensity is normally down to reflector size, i.e. the same LED in a larger reflector will produce the same lumens, but higher candela/lux. Other things can influence this, a smaller LED surface area also generally increases intensity, which is why the old XR-E emitters offered such good throw. This doesn't mean they are brighter however, normally the complete opposite.

I'm not sure what LEDs the Mags are using these days, however if you put the same 351 lumen one from the Mini Mag in the ML25, you'd get about the same lumens and still more throw (higher candela) than the Mini Mag.

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

I'll use my Pelican 2350's as an example. The first gen was 100 lumens and stated 19k+ candella. The next generation was 175 lumens and stated 9k+ candella. Same light, same body, just different LED. I use the gen one to see off in the distance in say, a portion of my neighbors back yard three doors down and the gen two for say, lighting up my entire back yard.

That's pretty much the way I see the ML25 versus the Minimag AA. One was meant to spread light out more evenly while the other was intended to spread light a lot farther. A WHOLE lot farther. In SureFire terms you could say MaxVision vs their TIR system. Whichever one works best is up to the buyer.

The XL50 is somewhere in between the ML25 and Minimag AA in my view that leans more toward throw than total spread.

I hear what you are saying, but it isn't quite that way. It is all about LED size and reflector size.

To give some examples.

If you had an old CREE XP-E LED driven at the same amps. Put it in a Mini Mag and it'll give quite a throwy beam. Because the LED has a small surface area. This allows a small reflector to focus the light quite tightly. If you put this same LED in a D-cell Mag reflector, it'll be a really good thrower, but the beam will be really narrow with a small hot spot and quite dull spill beam. This is because the larger reflector can focus the light even more tightly.

The extra throw comes from a more concentrated, narrower beam. I actually have an XP-E drop in for a D-cell Mag, and it really is a superb thrower and can light up objects further away than many of my modern lights. But the total light output is very low by comparison.


Now the stage would be to retain the two reflectors (Mini Mag and D cell) and change the LED. If you swapped out the XP-E for a CREE XM-L chip, the XM-L is much bigger, with a much larger surface area. In the small reflector of the Mini Mag, you'd have much more of a flooder now. As the small reflector would struggle to focus the light. So you'd end up with a large hotspot that blends into a bright spill beam. But the lux/candela would be significantly lower than the XP-E.

In the bigger reflector you will see the same trend, the larger reflector will be better able to focus the beam than the small one, giving much more throw compared to the same LED with the small reflector (i.e. higher lux/candela). However, as the XM-L is much bigger than the XP-E, you still wouldn't get the same throw. You'd get a bigger hot spot and a much brighter spill beam.

So for throw (or high lux) you want a mix of a small LED with a large reflector. However more lumens for a given setup will always offer more total light.

 

[bykfixer]

You're preaching to the choir CD.

My old school eyeballs are used to a pencil beam of light from a PR based light bulb with enough spill to guide my steps yet not create a defined wall of tlight that that freaks my brain out. But there are times a given situation would require more total output. So for a time when it's dark enough to see stars I prefer the ML25.

 

[sween1911]

Great thread. Love what Mag has done and are stepping up and making all kinds of cool lights with multiple modes and high output. Gets a Maglite back to where a Maglite meant something.

Still get hinky though about loading those big beautiful "D" cells in a tube given all the times over the last 30 years I've held a dying Maglite, done in by alkaleaks left unchecked for too long, as it sputtered its last light.

 

[desmobob]

I have a soft spot in my heart for Maglite. My Mini was my first "good" flashlight, and did years of service hunting and camping. Fitted in a JakStrap, it was also my headlamp. A pretty, red 3 D-cell model lived under the seat of my truck.

Fast forward many years, and modern LED flashlights and headlamps put my Maglites on the shelf, way in the back. A few years ago at Christmas time, I bought a 2 D-cell Maglite as a gift for an elderly friend. The simplicity seemed appealing, so I also bought one for myself. It has the quality feel of the old-school Maglites and simple it is... on or off. The output is OK and the beam is OK after focusing. The form factor is familiar, but huge for it's output and capabilities.

It's on the shelf, way in the back...

 

[greenpondmike]

I just wish maglite hadn't changed the color temp of the new mini mag pro. The 281 version looks so bodacious when I ceiling bounce it.
I guess that is how they got the extra lumens though- by removing some of the phosporus from the LED or rather ordering the same LED in a cooler temp. I saw some of the older ones on ebay or amazon going at premium prices, but I don't trust them. The early model updated ones had stickers on the package covering the 281 version's specs. All you have to do is peel those stickers off and sell the new ones as the old ones and get more for them since people like me still prefer them. Well, at least my wife owns the older model. I reckon I'll just enjoy it.

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

You're preaching to the choir CD.

My old school eyeballs are used to a pencil beam of light from a PR based light bulb with enough spill to guide my steps yet not create a defined wall of tlight that that freaks my brain out. But there are times a given situation would require more total output. So for a time when it's dark enough to see stars I prefer the ML25.

Maybe we are at cross purposes.....

I'm questioning why Maglite offer the ML25LT with only a super low rating of 190 lumens. When they could be using at least the 351 lumen of the Mini Mag. You'd still get more throw from the ML25LT vs the Mini Mag. Only you feel quite as much as though you are using a 15 year old torch in terms of performance.

 

[xxo]

I'm questioning why Maglite offer the ML25LT with only a super low rating of 190 lumens. When they could be using at least the 351 lumen of the Mini Mag. You'd still get more throw from the ML25LT vs the Mini Mag. Only you feel quite as much as though you are using a 15 year old torch in terms of performance.

Because a light like that would suck, or at least it would be a big down grade in performance – you would get less throw and less brightness (not to mention a nasty blue tint). All I can say is shine the focused super low 190 lumen ML25 on a wall along side a 351 lumen Mini Mag and it only takes a second to see that the ML25 is brighter. Yes, the MM has more lumens and you can see that if you stare at the beams for a few seconds but our eyes tell us it is not as bright because it is not as intense (ask some non flashlight people which one is brighter and I'll bet most will say the focused ML25). Take the two lights outside a shine them on something across the back yard or down the street and the advantage of the ML25 only increases. Lumens are only a good measure when the light is not projected by a reflector or a optical system of some sort - good for light bulbs, near irrelevant for flashlights. For flashlights, candlepower and beam pattern are what matter. Candlepower relates directly to beam distance/intensity of the spot and beam pattern is important to ensure that you have a big enough spot and spill to see what you are looking at. With the Mini Mag Pros you get a hotspot that is big but not all that intense with a small spill that has a lot of those lumens in it – basically a waste of lumens compared to the ML25 which gives a smaller/more intense spot for distance and a huge spill that is great for up close so your not tripping over things or walking into them without being too bright that it totally kills you adapted night vision. Get out and use both lights and you will see.

 

[greenpondmike]

Maybe we are at cross purposes.....

I'm questioning why Maglite offer the ML25LT with only a super low rating of 190 lumens. When they could be using at least the 351 lumen of the Mini Mag. You'd still get more throw from the ML25LT vs the Mini Mag. Only you feel quite as much as though you are using a 15 year old torch in terms of performance.

Seeing how 30 lumens is a lot of light I can't see why you would consider 190 to be low lumens.
I have just about quit chasing lumens as I have learned more about flashlights. I used to think the more the better, but now it is candela that matters more to me and the lumen/candela relation to each other as shown in manufacturer specs. That way I can tell if it is more of a thrower or a flooder. Specs can't tell you about beam patterns, colors or if there is a little hint of a hotspot in that floody beam if specs allude to a flooder though. Only beamshots will give you a real heads up before you buy one. I myself don't want another "coast" style flood beam which is just an evenly distributated narrow flood beam. In that situation the mini mag pro does its thing and it is adjustable also. I don't think my ML25LT is old tech and I'm happy with mine. It has a good neutral color, good throw, good battery life and a good amount of spill. It can give a ML50 a good run for its money and I bought both at the same time (the ml50 and the ml25lt 2c with the same type batteries) and played with them. The two ML25LT's I bought were the first ones- the 177 2c and a little later the 173 3c. Even those old ones were bright enough to suit my needs.
If lumens are really all that matter to you, I think you would be happier with the mini mag pro. If you have never used a ML25LT though, those measly 190 lumens just might make you say "whoa!". Only maglite can make 190 lumens (or even 173) look like 600+ lumens.
No offense to anybody else's opinion, but the mm pro kinda reminds me of an inspection light and has about the same sized beam as coast's inspection light- except it is whiter, the edges fade out in comparison to coast's sharp blue edges and it has a big not too intense hotspot. I'm referring to the 271-281? version though. My wife likes hers for her purposes which are from 1-35 feet. Honestly, one time she laughed at my ML25 in comparison to hers at about 15 feet, but beyond 50+ ft. she's probably not gonna be laughing.
On hers you can adjust the beam to less intensity to use it up close, but no low mode and about 2-2 1/2 hours runtime that gradually fades out after it falls out of regulation- which is a positive thing to me.

Edit: No offence chicken drumstick- at least we can both agree that we like chicken, but I like the thigh better. :laughing:

 

[bykfixer]

Speaking of not a lot of lumens, the 60 something lumen aa minimag spectrum warm arrived. The beam reminds me a 4C incan Maglite in many ways. Bigger spill than the incan version but……

The beam of the little incan version has a tiny spot that can reach farther than the warm LED. I was kind of surprised. Now neither is huge bright output. The spectrum warm definitely outshines the incan for general uses. Yet it makes me appreciate the incan version that much more.

Left is the warm LED version.

The arrow points to a faint spot about 100 feet up, about 100 feet away.

The tiny spot of the incan is brighter.

So 15 lumens appears brighter than 63 off in the distance. Not saying it's brighter. Just saying that is one reason the aa minimag was so popular in the middle 80's to the middle 90's.

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

Because a light like that would suck, or at least it would be a big down grade in performance – you would get less throw and less brightness (not to mention a nasty blue tint). All I can say is shine the focused super low 190 lumen ML25 on a wall along side a 351 lumen Mini Mag and it only takes a second to see that the ML25 is brighter. Yes, the MM has more lumens and you can see that if you stare at the beams for a few seconds but our eyes tell us it is not as bright because it is not as intense (ask some non flashlight people which one is brighter and I'll bet most will say the focused ML25). Take the two lights outside a shine them on something across the back yard or down the street and the advantage of the ML25 only increases. Lumens are only a good measure when the light is not projected by a reflector or a optical system of some sort - good for light bulbs, near irrelevant for flashlights. For flashlights, candlepower and beam pattern are what matter. Candlepower relates directly to beam distance/intensity of the spot and beam pattern is important to ensure that you have a big enough spot and spill to see what you are looking at. With the Mini Mag Pros you get a hotspot that is big but not all that intense with a small spill that has a lot of those lumens in it – basically a waste of lumens compared to the ML25 which gives a smaller/more intense spot for distance and a huge spill that is great for up close so your not tripping over things or walking into them without being too bright that it totally kills you adapted night vision. Get out and use both lights and you will see.

Your observations are about the reflectors, not the LEDs or lumen out put though. That's my point....

The ML25 could be made a lot better with higher output!

 

[bykfixer]

It's already available CD. It's called the ML50.

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

Seeing how 30 lumens is a lot of light I can't see why you would consider 190 to be low lumens.
I have just about quit chasing lumens as I have learned more about flashlights. I used to think the more the better, but now it is candela that matters more to me and the lumen/candela relation to each other as shown in manufacturer specs. That way I can tell if it is more of a thrower or a flooder. Specs can't tell you about beam patterns, colors or if there is a little hint of a hotspot in that floody beam if specs allude to a flooder though. Only beamshots will give you a real heads up before you buy one. I myself don't want another "coast" style flood beam which is just an evenly distributated narrow flood beam. In that situation the mini mag pro does its thing and it is adjustable also. I don't think my ML25LT is old tech and I'm happy with mine. It has a good neutral color, good throw, good battery life and a good amount of spill. It can give a ML50 a good run for its money and I bought both at the same time (the ml50 and the ml25lt 2c with the same type batteries) and played with them. The two ML25LT's I bought were the first ones- the 177 2c and a little later the 173 3c. Even those old ones were bright enough to suit my needs.
If lumens are really all that matter to you, I think you would be happier with the mini mag pro. If you have never used a ML25LT though, those measly 190 lumens just might make you say "whoa!". Only maglite can make 190 lumens (or even 173) look like 600+ lumens.
No offense to anybody else's opinion, but the mm pro kinda reminds me of an inspection light and has about the same sized beam as coast's inspection light- except it is whiter, the edges fade out in comparison to coast's sharp blue edges and it has a big not too intense hotspot. I'm referring to the 271-281? version though. My wife likes hers for her purposes which are from 1-35 feet. Honestly, one time she laughed at my ML25 in comparison to hers at about 15 feet, but beyond 50+ ft. she's probably not gonna be laughing.
On hers you can adjust the beam to less intensity to use it up close, but no low mode and about 2-2 1/2 hours runtime that gradually fades out after it falls out of regulation- which is a positive thing to me.

Edit: No offence chicken drumstick- at least we can both agree that we like chicken, but I like the thigh better. :laughing:

No offence taken


I would say, you should probably try some different lights. You'd be amazed at the performance difference available. As for colour tint, generally the Mags are pretty poor. Unless things have radically changed in the last couple of years. Get yourself a High CRI light or one with some Nichia219's in if you want to see the difference here.


In terms of lumens. In 2020 190 lumens is not very much at all. Some lights have brighter LOW modes than this. :laughing:


Beam profile can normally be guess by the LED size/type and the optics type and size. Although, yes beamshots are always helpful.

I'm not really knocking the Mags, for cheap (in the USA market) off the shelf lights they are ok. But they could be so much more.

I'm willing to bet my $25 C8 flashlight would easily have a brighter hotspot than the ML25, throw further, have a brighter spill beam and still be a lot more compact. And with much better tint.