Winter specific tires for cars, do don't why which ?

OCD

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I would never drive in actual winter conditions with 'all-season' tires (they're fine for areas where you don't actually get snow in the winter..). You haven't had a problem, good for you! That's great, but in my opinion, probably luck. :p

As others have stated, I also use BFG All Terrains on my 4WD truck and haven't found many tires that compare for both off-road and in snow. I've driven many miles in some pretty nasty winter weather. Here in the mid-west where I live, not only can we get some decent snow, but we have TONS of hills and back-roads. Not only do I feel that I've never had any problems with my "all-season" tires, but I feel they've kept me from getting into problems.

So as you're entitled to your OPINION on the subject, don't try to tell me I'm just a "lucky" driver.
 

orbital

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All season passenger car tires & all season truck tires cannot be looked at or compared in any way.
~~ Classic apples to oranges
All Season passenger car tires mean nothing & are not winter tires.

I really see this as a problem,,
people thinking their 'budget car center' all season passenger tires, on super special $, are winter tires:tsk: _________they are not


**********edit: also, those silly super tall wheels with tires that have no sidewalls,, should be illegal from Nov.1~Apr.1
in the US.
 
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HighlanderNorth

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Prior to my current 4X4 truck, my best snow-driving car was.......well....not a car, it was a minivan. I needed a work van, so in 2000 I bought a 1993 Plymouth Voyager minivan with 87,000 miles, which ran great from the time I bought it til the time I sold it. But we got this 12" snowfall in early 2001, and I was really worried that it was going to repeatedly get stuck, especially considering I had to go and help a few people get shoveled out early in the AM when it was still snowing and hadnt been plowed hardly at all, and the roads in the developments hadnt been plowed at all!

So I take off and immediately I realize that the minivan is just driving right along with zero problems, and zero sliding. When I'd get to an intersection, I'd just depress the gas pedal and go. No wheel spin. I was driving through unplowed developments passed cars that were stuck, and I'd park right in high snow, and when it was time to leave 45 minutes later, I'd just pull right out! It was front wheel drive with its engine AND transmission right over top of the front wheels was great for snow traction!

I noticed that the expensive all season tires that came on my truck stock were very good for the first 2-3 years, then their traction seemed to disappear even though they still had over 60-70% of their original tread left.
 

StarHalo

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tires that have no sidewalls,, should be illegal from Nov.1~Apr.1 in the US.

Yup, and that's why you put winter tires on a properly re-sized smaller diameter wheel; aside from the fact that this makes the tires cheaper, it also makes them narrower - there's a reason rally drivers use ultra-skinny tires in the snow:

ibkZvomvkvYr3e.jpg
 

kaichu dento

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When you see these dozens of cars pile up solely because people are unable to actually brake for traffic given their ill-suited tires, there's nothing to do but laugh, considering how easily avoided it is. People here aren't particularly good drivers, yet things like that simply don't happen.

I would never drive in actual winter conditions with 'all-season' tires (they're fine for areas where you don't actually get snow in the winter..). You haven't had a problem, good for you! That's great, but in my opinion, probably luck.
I haven't seen the dozens of cars you mention, and you probably haven't either but I can tell by your attitude, particularly the part that is constantly looking down your nose at those who would deign to disagree with you, that your opinion is probably not worth much.
We get plenty of snow in Alaska, but I guess you're not going to let facts get in the way of your postings.

As for the luck mentioned, I find the better I do my part, the more luck I have!
 

orbital

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Yup, and that's why you put winter tires on a properly re-sized smaller diameter wheel; aside from the fact that this makes the tires cheaper, it also makes them narrower - there's a reason rally drivers use ultra-skinny tires in the snow:..

+

Probably the biggest misconception people have on winter tires is to get really wide sh^%#! kicker tires for winter.
This is exactly the opposite of the truth.

SAAB proved, 50~60 years ago, that narrow tires would allow the weight of the vehicle to cut through the snow and grip the base surface.
Wide tires will 'float' on snow.

The world rally shot is an extreme example, but a good one because teams will use the absolute best setup for winter driving traction,,, studded or not.
 

kaichu dento

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Yup, and that's why you put winter tires on a properly re-sized smaller diameter wheel; aside from the fact that this makes the tires cheaper, it also makes them narrower - there's a reason rally drivers use ultra-skinny tires in the snow
SAAB proved, 50~60 years ago, that narrow tires would allow the weight of the vehicle to cut through the snow and grip the base surface.
Wide tires will 'float' on snow.

The world rally shot is an extreme example, but a good one because teams will use the absolute best setup for winter driving traction,,, studded or not.
Great point to bring up and one of the worst mistakes one can make when choosing traction for snow or mud - too wide. Wide is good for asphalt, but not for snow.
 

TEEJ

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Great point to bring up and one of the worst mistakes one can make when choosing traction for snow or mud - too wide. Wide is good for asphalt, but not for snow.

This is somewhat true, but also somewhat false.

Lets just say how wide, or how narrow, will affect your traction.

If I were to use an analogy...lets say you can have soccer cleats or basketball sneakers...and you had to play basketball on a hard court with soccer cleats, you'd slide all over the place because your cleats could not sink into the hard surface for traction...they skitter across the top and you slide all over the place and twist your ankle, etc.

Then, you put on the basketball sneakers, and go play soccer on a wet field. The smooth rubber soles slide over the wet grass without traction, as they have no tread elements to sink into the turf for traction...and you slide all over the place and twist your other ankle, etc.


Now, consider that your tire tread elements are like those cleats. If the surface is soft ENOUGH, they do sink in and get traction...but, if the surface is too hard...they do not. The MORE they sink in, the MORE traction you can get.

When on deep fresh snow, a paddle wheel tread type can grab the ridges of snow and paddle you through it all.

As the snow is progressively harder and harder packed, those large tread elements sink in progressively less.


When the snow is packed too hard to push the tread in, it skitters over it instead of biting.


NOW, it comes down to the size of the tread element, and, the weight pushing it down into the packed snow.

So, a narrower tire concentrates the weight on a smaller area, increasing the psi at the point of penetration for each given tread block.

A smaller tread block in turn also concentrates its weight into a smaller area to also increase penetration.


A SPIKE for example, or tire stud, is an extreme example of this...it concentrates the weight on the point to increase the penetration dramatically.


After you finally find a combination that gives penetration...you then need to look at the ability of that POINT to be able to brace against and be used to move the rig forward. IE: IS one point enough to move the rig?

How many DO you need to have sunk in TO be able to move the rig?

And that gets, again, back to how hard it is, and its resistance when pushed back against, etc.

Too many spikes, and its "bed of nails" effect...the weight is too distributed, and the penetration is too shallow...so you either get penetration, but the cumulative grip is too small, or you don't even get penetration.

If you have the correct number of spikes - you get both penetration and sufficient leverage from those penetration points



So, for a particular weight rig and a particular tread pattern and a particular snow density/hardness and depth...any combination of wide or narrow treads MIGHT work best.


As far as ice or really hard pack goes...every one knows a narrow runner like on a sled will slide more easily than a fat toboggan will - even though the toboggan "floats" better.

So if the narrow runner slips more easily, how does it get more traction? (It doesn't)

:D

The answer is that the larger surface area off the toboggan provides more TOTAL friction than the small surface area of the sled's runners. BOTH generate heat from friction, and both melt the ice and snow to aid in their sliding along...but, the larger surface area, even with lower psi loading, can still generate more traction.

If you were to add tread to the bottom of the toboggan, and to the bottom of the sled's runners...the toboggan would STILL go slower down the hill, and, may not even slide.

This again gets back to the OVERALL and cumulative impact of the available traction contact patch.


So, while the wider tire MIGHT have less traction in snow...it sometimes has MORE traction.


If the rig is going very fast, like a rally racer, etc...the rig might need snow or slush to pile up against the sidewall in a power slide to build enough resistance to allow a change in direction.

A narrow tire WILL sink down further all else being equal, and might be able to maximize that side piling.

On the other hand, when braking, most racers in loose terrain don't use anti-lock brakes because they also need the stuff to pile up in FRONT of the tire to help stop...whereas anti-locks prevents that, and actually can lengthen stopping distances.


So, there are rigs designed for traveling through snow...and, other than rally cars, when they fit, the fattest tires that DO fit are what they have on. Part of that is BECAUSE they will have better flotation, and be less likely to sink down and get STUCK.

The treads used therefore take advantage of surface ridge piling effects, so that the tread pattern allows the snow to be compacted by the tire into ridges that the tread elements can brace against.


If there is soft snow over ice...there's no traction to sink down TOO...you need to use the deformable soft snow for traction, and avoid sinking down.

After that...its all a question of degree...for the weight of the rig and the width of the tire and its diameter, and the size of the tread elements and the compactability of the snow, etc...wider might be better, narrower might be better, etc. Its not one size fits all.


And so forth...so many variations of what might be best for a particular winter situation that we'd probably need to learn Inuit terms to describe all the types of snow that might be there, etc. (IIRC, they have over 200 words for snow...)

:D


So, yes, if you are rally racing on ice....you use skinny tires...but, if you look at the rally guys, they increase the contact patch as the snow softens...they don't ONLY run pizza cutters no matter what if there's snow...they chose the combination of contact patch and contact element penetration and need to cut into the substrate.


Examples of a fat tread working better in snow:


8088645589_eed6af4567_z.jpg



8088645316_9813b75757_z.jpg



8088644622_794d6452fc_o.jpg



8088644063_740715594b_z.jpg



Notice these are not pizza cutters, and, they seem to have snow traction?


Think toboggan with tread vs sled runners with tread....sometimes fatter works better in the snow....and, yes, TOO fat, or, TOO skinny, doesn't work as well.

:D
 
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kaichu dento

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Fatter is generally better for situations where you desire flotation as well - sand or snow with no base would be two examples. Everyone else in the thread has been talking about road usage, but your point does stand well for those who might go too far in the assumption that fat tires are never desirable.
 

TEEJ

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Fatter is generally better for situations where you desire flotation as well - sand or snow with no base would be two examples. Everyone else in the thread has been talking about road usage, but your point does stand well for those who might go too far in the assumption that fat tires are never desirable.


Its the same for mud tires. If there is something solid to bite into under all the stuff on top, and if reaching down to it won't make the leading edges of the tire have to overcome too steep a ramp, then a narrower tire can work.

If there's nothing but ice or harder packed material you can't bite into under there, or if you'd have to sink too far down to reach the traction...then a fatter tire works better.

Too often the narrow tired rigs get stuck because they simply have no flotation or traction, and/or sink down so far that the face of the tire is facing too steep a pile of snow to keep climbing over as it rolls forward.

On the road, or off the road, this is true.

If we have slush over pavement, narrower tires will be able to sink down to reach the pavement better, and have something to bite for traction, and the slush won't resist the tire trying to roll forward too much to stop it...and, you can go faster w/o hydroplaning up onto the slush/water film, etc. As winter rally races typically chew up the surfaces, it does tend to result in the kind of crud that a narrower tire has a better chance of handling.

Where we have deep snowfall, sinking down for traction = sinking down and high centering/making too tall a pile of snow in front of the tire to allow it to roll forward, etc.

As the snow gets deeper and softer, the tires get wider to compensate.

Its all about the balance between contact pressures and required penetration pressures for a particular tread and scenario, combined with the vehicle's weight and the type and depth of snow/ice cover, and the resultant required total leverage to move yourself with what contact/penetration you have, etc.

Sometimes XCountry skis work better, and sometimes snowshoes work better.

:D
 

orbital

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This thread is about winter tires for normal driving and highways speeds.
...the snowshoe analogy shows wide makes you float,, which in winter tires is equivalent to very dangerous 'snow' hydroplaning.

,,absolutely the WRONG answer for winter driving.



{the word cars in the title is key, not polar expedition machines}
 
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127.0.0.1

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This thread is about winter tires for normal driving and highways speeds.
...the snowshoe analogy shows wide makes you float,, which in winter tires is equivalent to very dangerous 'snow' hydroplaning.

,,absolutely the WRONG answer for winter driving.



{the word cars in the title is key, not polar expedition machines}

yup, that is what I meant. paved or dirt town roads for commuting to work and getting groceries,
not polar expeditions or swampfest 2012
 

kaichu dento

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Its the same for mud tires. If there is something solid to bite into under all the stuff on top, and if reaching down to it won't make the leading edges of the tire have to overcome too steep a ramp, then a narrower tire can work.
Teej, we're all aware of most of this and the thread is actually getting derailed into a general discussion having nothing to do with the OP, which is whether or not to buy snow specific tires.
 

jorn

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Changing to winter tires today. Icy on the road this morning, and my rwd was waving it's tale all the way to work, making me smile :). Off with antispin.. fun sideways. Only spiked tires for me.

Narrow tires for the road. superwide ones if you are going off road (expedition), and need to float on top of 1-2m snow. But you dont use them on normal cars. You got to rebuild the off roader to accept surch wide tires.

Every year there is a test of tires. can find it here (translated by google): http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.naf.no%2FAlle-saker%2FNAF-eksperten%2FForbrukertester%2FDekktest%2FVinterdekktest-2012%2FVinterdekktest-2012%2F
 

SemiMan

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I've always gone with all-season tires, right from the the introduction of the Goodyear Tiempo and have done well enough that I have no intention of changing back to separate tires for the seasons.
Equipment is important, and the most important equipment is the driver and the most important thing a driver does is assess the conditions to drive appropriately, even if it means getting down to 25 miles an hour, as many people did up here year before last when black ice was there for the better part of four months.

There is a great saying about tires ...

"All season tires guarantee that you will have the wrong tire for every season".

It is so true. There is just no comparison between all seasons and dedicated winter tires. You can "drive slow" and "careful" all you want, but stuff happens and you have no control over the other drivers on the road. The small added cost of winter tires (compared to your car, insurance, gas, etc.) is excellent "insurance". I find "near snow" areas some of the worse. Any tire can get you tolerably through 4 inches of snow (10cm). Its when you have a small amount of snow (almost daily) that turns into ice that things get dicey, normally because the conditions then get unpredictable. You can try going slow all you want, but you do have to go with the "flow" or you become a danger to everyone else as you cause everyone else to make unneccessary lane changes to get around you.

Even the best drivers lose attention at times. Its good (and sensible) to be prepared when that happens. That is part of being a good driver.
 

SemiMan

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As others have stated, I also use BFG All Terrains on my 4WD truck and haven't found many tires that compare for both off-road and in snow. I've driven many miles in some pretty nasty winter weather. Here in the mid-west where I live, not only can we get some decent snow, but we have TONS of hills and back-roads. Not only do I feel that I've never had any problems with my "all-season" tires, but I feel they've kept me from getting into problems.

So as you're entitled to your OPINION on the subject, don't try to tell me I'm just a "lucky" driver.

Well I won't tell you that you are "lucky", there is a difference between traditional all season tires and all terrain tires that generally have some (not all) of the qualities of winter tires. It all depends on what you consider nasty winter weather too. All terrains are pretty tolerable in snow, especially fresh snow, but they are lacking when the snow gets packed down and/or icy. As you have 4WD you are always going to be able to get moving, but realistically your braking and handling are not as good as a dedicated winter tire. It just isn't and saying that it is does not make it so. There are far too many tests that show dedicated winters are better.

I had an SUV and a nastry long slopped driveway for many years. The All Terrains were tolerable, but my wife with Blizzaks on her car started to refuse to drive the SUV in winter as she did not feel comfortable. Eventually I broke down and got Blizzaks on the SUV too. Night and day really in terms of how the vehicle performed especially when it got a bit icy.

Semiman
 

Bullzeyebill

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Easy here guys. Let's try and avoid statements that others might consider "offensive", and likewise, let's not be overly offended by statements by others. Lot's of different opinions here, so let's respect each others opinions.

Bill
 

jorn

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Using winter spesific tires 8-9 months of the year.. Driving around with ugly looking rims with slim tires most of the year. It's normal to have 2 or even 3 set of rims for your car here. And most pepole use spiked ones. Have tested all seson.. no way. no more. I guess they are good for semi winter'ish conditions. Spikless winter spesific tires was way better, but on polished ice...:thumbsdow... no way, no more.
I like huge spikes that grinds asphalt and makes little kids breathe the fine dust so they get asthma :) They are safe for the driver atleast :) A good set of winter tires is the best and cheapest insurance you can get in winterland:)
 

Fresh Light

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I live in central WI and know what winter is all about. Using all season tires and thinking that it's "good enough" is foolish. By not having an accident or missing work not to mention the relative lack of white knuckle driving, make winter tires the only way to go. I've only used the Blizzaks, and they have been excellent. Anybody have any other tire brand related suggestions or experience. I may get a new set this year for the truck as well.
 

jorn

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Lets all be friends and discuss tires, not eachother :)
Just remember to keep winter tires away from daylight when storing them off season. Daylight will harden the soft rubber, making them way less grippy for the next winter. The small groves and the soft rubber in winter tires act like a spunge, removing the microscopic waterlayer that forms under your tires.
The funny thing about tires is that it might not preform at all on your car. Some years ago i got some really lo budget tires. They were dangerously bad on most conditions, and i had to drive silly slow to avoid loosing grip constantly. Couldent drive faster and it's a huge problem on narrow icy roads with almost no sthetches for the angry pepole behind me to pass. One of my friends had the exatc same problem with a lo budget brand of tires (in the same dimentions as mine). We swapped, and it suddenly got grippy for both of us.. really grippy. I hear alot of pepole is experiencing the same thing . Tires wont grip, then they swap them on their second car (in desperation), and both cars suddenly have lots of grip.

There is no tire that's best on all cars in all conditions. Tires are all about compromises, so what woks best will always be determined by the roadstandard, terrain and conditions where we drive. Sometimes the brand of cars will play a huge role on the preformance from same set of tires. in the same conditions.
I think it would be interesting if we posted the typical driving conditions our winter will offer, and what type of car/tires combo works for us.
 
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