Years of reading and battery safety is a mystery to me

chillinn

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Just a reminder that a certainly person likes to dispense wrong information on topics he clearly knows nothing about .... like suggesting "electrical grease" under the false assumption it is conductive :)


View attachment 38352

JustAnOldFashionedLEDGuy is indulging his NPD in attaempting to humiliate me by showing something that is absolutely true. Ha ha ha, what a moron I am, Silicone or dialectic grease is an insulator and will not conduct electricity. That is true. Later in the thread, that I will proudly link to, my error became humorously obvious, that the suggestion was intended not to conduct electricity rather than make a better contact, as I had incorrectly assumed, and I acknowledged my misunderstanding of the intent of the suggestion, and I edited my post to strike out the incorrect assertions, honestly leaving them there for all to see, forever. What that shows is that I am capable of mistakes like everyone, yet have honor and will quickly acknowledge my mistakes, something that JustAnOldFashionedLEDGuy can't do and thinks honor is for suckers as he takes advantage of others. I am not ashamed of that, you borderline retarded subhuman turd-sucker. I am proud of it. Others in the thread were inexplicably looking for far fetched and unlikely reasons for the corrosion when the smoking gun, cell outgassing, was staring us right in the face.

Meanwhile, JustAnOldFashionedLEDGuy realized almost immediately upon being pointed our his boneheaded superstitious error that freezing Li-ion cells can serve little purpose because reducing self-discharge will be defeated by the humidity of a consumer freezer, but he is incapable of admitting his error, and is intellectually dishonest in continuing to try to find some way, desperately, not to appear like a blow hard idiot, actively trying to trick others into making the same ignorant mistake with him.

You're wrong. It's just not that big of a deal. Get help, because your mental illness is a big deal, as you get pleasure from hurting others. You can't hurt me, but there are undoubtedly people in your life that you care about, and that is who you hurt, as often as every single day, by bullying them, menacing them, threatening them, belittling and denigrating them, and they don't deserve your narcissistic abuse, whomever they are. You can be cured or mitigate the mental illness just by sitting with a professional for a half an hour talking twice a month for 2 years or less. But chances are great you'll insist on remaining an ignorant, arrogant abusive @sshole. Please prove me wrong.

Have their been lithium laptop fires? Yes, several a decade ago with bad Sony batteries.
More intellectual dishonesty, and frankly a provably false statement. Thousands and thousands of laptops and even more cell phones have caught fire.
2010 UPS747 fatal plane crash caused by Li-ion battery fire
2017 laptop fire
2020 laptop fire
4 Jan. 2023 laptop Li-ion battery fire
Same day, laptop battery fire
21 Jan. 2023 fatal Li-ion house fire
Today's battery fire, 18 kids injured
HP and Apple have recalled hundreds of thousands of laptops due to fire risk.
The idea here is to neither sensationalize nor falsely downplay the risk. Not every Lithium ion cell will catch fire, most will not, and hardly any will. But there will continue to be a non-negligible amount of fires every year due to bad or abused cells. The risk is small, but it is not zero.

+

10,000 words later,,,

It isn't called a flame war because it's pithy and concise.
 
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chillinn

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Do not believe it is so that you will find happiness in the misery of others. Some people laugh when they see someone's crack hanging out and that someone is not aware of it, bemused by their misfortune. This is called

schadenfreude

I do not find JustAnOldFashionedLEDGuy's clinical narcissism any more entertaining than cancer. It's a medical problem, not a joke, except unlike cancer in most cases, misery is contagious. He's miserable and he spreads his misery rather than doing anything about it. If he has children, they will be afflicted by the same malady, even though it isn't genetic. And if they aren't treated, their children will also be miserable and spread their misery, and so on in a repeating cycle until it is broken, which it may never be.

I and the public know.
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done.
Do evil in return.

― W. H. Auden, September 1, 1939;
The New Republic, 18 October 1939
 
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aznsx

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Ya know, the worst thing about a peein' match is that nobody ever wins one, but everybody goes home smellin' bad.

I will not participate in such, but one day I did decide it would be cool to pee off the South Rim of the Grand Cyn. The end result was the same, and I don't recommend that either.
 

chillinn

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If we don't scrutinize and challenge false information, false beliefs will spead and cement. One can't be against bullying without actually doing something about it. It is not enough to understand it, we must resist it. If we don't stand up to bullying, doing nothing is itself feedback such that it can only encourage more bullying. Bullying is social tyranny and must not be tolerated.


This machine kills fascists.
 
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chillinn

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the end of a household battery marked with a + (plus) is the cathode.

the end of a household battery marked with a "-" (minus) is the anode.

If everyone always agreed all the time, nothing would change. Dissent drives progress,


While the summary makes reference to complete cells, it actually does not talk about them.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352152X22021636
Malte Kosfeld said:
With the ongoing development of producing high-quality lithium-ion batteries (LIB), the influence of moisture on the individual components and ultimately the entire cell is an important aspect. It is well known that water can lead to significant aging effects on the components and the cell itself.
...
The fact that moisture can have an impact directly on components of the LIB or the entire cell is widely known and scope of research for many years.
...
there are many negative impacts that are linked to the presence of moisture [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23]. Moist commonly known is the creation of LiOH by the presence of H2O either within electrolyte [8] or cathode material [9], [10]. Adding CO2 to the hydroxide reaction to the more stable Li2CO3 [9], [10] occurs, e.g. in air with high humidity [10]. The reacted lithium is bound within the hydroxide and carbonate and not available for the usage in the LIB. Therefore the cell capacity and also the cell performance in general are therefore impaired [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16]. Cathode material with a high nickel content is more sensible against H2O and CO2, because nickel tends to create carbonates. Unfortunately they are known for their high capacity and therefore very popular. Nickel rich cathodes for instance are also prone to create basic hydrated nickel carbonate-hydroxides in moist air, which also leads to capacity loss [9], [10]. Zou et al. were able to prove that the amount of LiOH and Li2CO3 directly depends on the amount of nickel within NMC (nickel, manganese, cobalt) cathodes [17]. Langklotz et al. and Meinl et al. observed a capacity loss for LFP or Lisingle bondO material with increasing moisture content [14], [15]. A significant capacity loss and swelling within the cell above 1000 ppmw water content was observed in multiple studies after analyzing cells with various moist electrolytes [3], [16], [18].
...
The highly reactive fluorine within the electrolyte is known to create hydrofluoric acid which can lead into additional difficulties [14], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24]. Amatucci et al. state that already trace amounts of water are sufficient to create hydrofluoric acid (HF) [19]. Since the electrolyte reaches all components in the cell, the amount of water in all components of the final cell is relevant for the aging effect. Lux et al. could prove that besides the humidity also the environmental temperature influence the formation of HF. They could observe a supporting effect in the creation of the acid of 50 °C in contrast to regular ambient temperatures [24]. The HF can attack the SEI layer by dissolving Li-ions, which also impairs the cell performance [22], [24].
...
Regardless of the focus of this paper, the authors have revealed a lot of problems that moisture causes for Li-ion cells, with lots of supporting citations. Even what one might consider a negligible amount of moisture damages the cell and reduces capacity. If you read this before and believe it, why have you still denied it? Why did you present yourself as having read it and then falsely reinterpret it as not including details salient to this debate, and instead focus on details that were not relevant to it? One might almost think you haven't been arguing in good faith.
 
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SYZYGY

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i for one am glad to see a good, old fashioned flame war. been a while. tired of nanny state communities.

i don't mind them if there is some halfway decent discussion accompanying them and if they are half way respectful. i think this one was ok in those regards.
 

SYZYGY

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tbh even after all of that, i'm not 100% convinced one way or another under 'normal' (lazy) storage protocol in a fridge or freezer. i'd need to see real world capacity tests.

i'd love to see an experiment like this... regular old consumer fridge/freezer combo appliance with defrost cycle. storage time of one year. MC3000 (four slot charger) for capacity tests. cells are tested three times and averaged. testing is done at t=0 and t=1yr (i.e. each cell is tested 6 times total). the MC3000 is voltage and current calibrated with a decently respectable reference (quality bench DMM and power supply) both times (t=0 and t=1yr).

all cells individually labeled with a letter (group) and number (1-4). 4 cells per group. each cell is always in the same slot for each test. for example, a cell labeled X3 is always tested in slot 3 of the charger.

all cells are stored at 100% SoC.

these are the groups (each group has 4 cells):
  • control (A1-A4): room temp in a drawer in a part of the house with stable temps. stored in a 'heavy duty freezer' ziplock bag from a grocery store, air squeezed out.
  • fridge (B1-B4): fridge in a 'heavy duty freezer' ziplock bag, air squeezed out
  • freezer (C1-C4): freezer in 'heavy duty freezer' ziplock bag, air squeezed out
  • freezer (D1-D4): impulse sealed in a high quality aluminized mylar bag with desiccant pack, air squeezed out
anyone wanna donate 16 brand new cells to me? lol. $100 seems like a cheap way to settle this.
i don't need the cells. you can have them back after a year.
 
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KITROBASKIN

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Some of us including me have been making personal attacks and it is going too far. New members and visitors are unlikely to find this behavior credible.

It also does not look good when essentially false information is being passed along as fact. I belong to a forum called GatewayToAirguns and below a member's name for each post are symbols that show how reputable their content is, as judged by other members. We need something like that here so visitors and newcomers can have some idea who is shoveling questionables and those who care about the integrity of CPF.

Seems like some CPF commentators have way too much time on their hands, and when getting called on their suspect beliefs passed on as facts, dig themselves even further into a hole of embarrassment. This reflects poorly on all of us. One opinion.

Anyone else (besides me because I just did) going to make a hopefully final personal attack?

That said, over at the diysolarforum, discussion has referenced LFP battery suppliers warning not to let batteries be charged at or below freezing, causing decreased function, diminished capacity or downright total failure. Members support those warnings. Yet some other members have alluded to some scant evidence that very low amp charging is possible at near freezing, and even freezing temperatures; that more research should be performed.
 

chillinn

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tbh even after all of that, i'm not 100% convinced one way or another under 'normal' (lazy) storage protocol in a fridge or freezer. i'd need to see real world capacity tests.
If we can now agree on the fact that moisture damages Li-ion cells? Buy this. Calibrate the hygrometer with steam from boiling water. Stick it in whatever air evacuated baggie or Tupperware you put your cells in. Stick the whole thing in the freezer and wait a day. Then start checking readings every couple hours. If ever you see the hygrometer read anything above 70%RH, your cells are damaged and have experienced capacity loss. If you don't see it read above 70%RH, keep sampling, because %RH likely goes up beyond 90% twice a day and slowly drops back down for 4-5 hours following peak humidity.
 

SYZYGY

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i have a lot of sensors and test equipment (for other hobbies and work), and tbh RH measurement accuracy gets problematic at freezer temps.

anyways, i won't be convinced either way without a real world capacity loss experiment. theorizing all day doesn't answer the question.
 

chillinn

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i have a lot of sensors and test equipment (for other hobbies and work), and tbh RH measurement accuracy gets problematic at freezer temps.

If you ever see any liquid drops, or fog, that's 100% humidity. If you ever see frost, you know it was 100% humidity at some point in the past,

anyways, i won't be convinced either way without a real world capacity loss experiment. theorizing all day doesn't answer the question.

No offense intended, but it is obvious that you're not being entirely honest, and I can prove it to you: will you keep storing your Li-ion cells in a freezer without that evidence? Assumed, yes. And if so, even when you see the evidence that freezing cells in a consumer grade freezer causes faster self-discharge and can even damage Li-ion cells, and along with the evidence is an explanation that it is due to humidity fluctuating between 40% and 100% twice a day, you won't believe it, and will want to see more evidence.

The cold hard fact is that if there is ever any frost in your freezer, that should be all the evidence anyone needs, which though circumstantial, points to humidity fluctuating at some point up to 100%.

But you be you, I insist.
 

SYZYGY

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No offense intended, but it is obvious that you're not being entirely honest, and I can prove it to you: will you keep storing your Li-ion cells in a freezer without that evidence? Assumed, yes. And if so, even when you see the evidence that freezing cells in a consumer grade freezer causes faster self-discharge and can even damage Li-ion cells, and along with the evidence is an explanation that it is due to humidity fluctuating between 40% and 100% twice a day, you won't believe it, and will want to see more evidence.

i don't think it's obvious. i have only been entirely honest in this thread. also, did you really not intend offense? i am skeptical, lol.

for the record, i don't store cells in the fridge or freezer because i simply don't care that much about my cells' capacity over time. i'm not going to micromanage my meager inventory of cells to that extent. all of my cells get regularly used and rotated, and i'm ok with discarding them and buying more when i'm no longer satisfied with their performance. when a battery runs out, i'm not going to take one out of the freezer, wait 24h for it to gradually warm up inside its bag (to avoid condensation inside), and then charge it and put it in a flashlight. too much effort for my personal needs.

now, if, on the other hand, i owned a battery wholesale business, i would totally store them at cold temps if i had experimental evidence showing it was beneficial. and i'd probably have interns replicate those findings in house with my own storage just to be safe.

i never bothered to say if i do it or not because it's honestly irrelevant. i am interested in the answer to the question just for the sake of knowledge and my own curiosity.

i have presented what i feel is a perfectly reasonable experiment to answer the question. it could be done by a single person outside of an institution with a decent home lab. and it's only about $100 worth of cells. i even offered to volunteer my 'valuable' time to do it. but anyone could do it :)
 
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chillinn

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for the record, i don't store cells in the fridge or freezer because i simply don't care that much about my cells' capacity over time.

LMAO
ok. I try to take care with my cells, but I don't obsess over them either. Taking a small amount of care ensures a certain level of performance, which I do care about, and to which I have grown accustomed. But cells are to be used, consumed, not locked away under glass and irrationally overprotected. IMO cells perform best when abuse is avoided but they're being regularly used. But I do get a little sad when I accidentally murder one, and it isn't about the money.
 

SYZYGY

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yeah, for my personal use...

if i have excess cells that i'd even consider storing in the freezer for long(er) term preservation, i'd say i overbought.

if the number of active devices i use regularly is N, then i try to have around N+2 cells.

that doesn't mean i'm not interested in what we've been arguing about, though.
 

SYZYGY

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And if so, even when you see the evidence that freezing cells in a consumer grade freezer causes faster self-discharge and can even damage Li-ion cells, and along with the evidence is an explanation that it is due to humidity fluctuating between 40% and 100% twice a day, you won't believe it, and will want to see more evidence.

why would you assume a reasonable person wouldn't accept reasonable experimental evidence? do you assume i'm not a reasonable person? 🤔 🤦‍♂️

like i said, i haven't found a good study showing the result of cold storage in a home setting. and it sounds like you haven't either since you haven't produced one.
 
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Just opened up the freezer this morning to get some frozen fruit to make a smoothie. I noted that there was no ice on the outside surface of anything. Strange that huh with 75-80% humidity :) ... My ice cubes do keep getting smaller though. My ice maker dumps into a container in the freezer. That is a good thing though. When they shrink they fit through the opening of a Soda Stream bottle.

@SYZYGY, the "market" really does not care much about long term storage at cold temps as it is not a normal operating mode. However, if you can discharge at -20C ... then make your own conclusions. At low rate discharge, you are not going to prevent the cell from being <0C, so the battery will go through a freeze cycle. Read an article yesterday about a new cathode design, mainly in the surface texture, that achieve good charging performance down to -31. I expect this will be a moot discussion in the not too distant future.

I have about 10 - 18650 batteries, though more if you include battery packs for bicycle lights, and USB battery packs (the ones I have are internal 18650 batteries). I have a few 18650 flashlights, including one that gets used very regularly, one every once in a while, one almost never, and some laser pointers for star nights. 3 batteries gets regularly cycled, the rest are used a few times a year when out for long excursions, a seldom used lantern, etc. Personally I find it much easier to store a battery at 100% SOC. Put on the charger, put it away. I really should buy a charger with a settable end point. The regularly cycled batteries, the USB battery banks, and the bicycle battery packs go into the refrigerator after charging. It sits at about 3C. They probably spend 80% of their time at 100% SOC and the USB battery packs probably 95%. If I just store them at room temp, they will lose about 10-15% of their capacity every year. That makes it about a 3-4 year battery. Storing them in the fridge means about a 15 year battery. The batteries that I only use a couple times a year are in the freezer in heavy duty Ziplocs. Those are looking like they will be easily be 20 year batteries, though today's batteries have > 50% more storage.
 
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I forgot I had another batch of cells in the other freezer, some oddball 18650 non protected, RCR123, and 14500. They have been in there since early summer 2021, ~ 18 months. The protected cells were uniformly 4.055-4.07. That puts them about 85% SOC. The unprotected cell was 4.14 or about 95%. Not unsuspected. The protected cells will have higher self discharge from the parasitic load of the protection circuits. The quiescent current of those circuits would also be expected to drop with temperature reducing self discharge, but that is not necessarily a good thing. Some self discharge will extend the life by reducing SOC.

Cells in a sealed plastic bag. Not a hint of frost/moisture. As I was opening them cold in a warm room than putting them back, I through in a fresh desiccant bag.

FYI - The 14500 was for a flashlight I bought that was supposed to run on regular AA or Lithium AA. Light never worked properly on regular AA, so almost never use it. The RCR123 were for a 2x123 Innova Flashligh. Built like a tank, but ancient. It may even have a Lux K2 or early Cree in it. It is in the emergency kit in the car. It is at most on its 2nd set of batteries. The unprotected 18650s are cheapies from things I have bought over the years.
 
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