You get what you pay for...or DO you?

[Greg G]

If by bezel you mean lens, they are easy to remove.

Just turn the top of the head (the bezel), with a bit of force and the lens will fall out.
There may be some thread lock on there, but a strap wrench will fix that 🙂

I've tried that.

 

[Greg G]

Its a $195 flashlight send it back and get a new one, who knows maybe you will even get a better tint.

I'm going to mod this one like my other L5 to accept replaceable light engines.

 

[DimeRazorback]

I've tried that.

Try it with heat :thumbsup:

 

[DimeRazorback]

What batteries do the Surefires use ? ... The ones I've been looking at all seem to use 123s ... Are there any that use 18650s or AAs without changing drop-ins or resorting to boring out the body ?
.

Surefire use CR123 batteries.
They, alongside Duracell designed them.

No SF's use 18650's in their stock form, hence why people bore them out to use certain after market drop ins. For example the Malkoff M30, Malkoff M60 etc.

There is only one AA prototype in the works by SF at the moment, that being the E2L AA Outdoorsman.

 

[jefierro]

You get what you pay for...or DO you?

For us the ones that research every aspect of the light we buy, I think there's little to be gained from one specialized manufacturer to the next. For the collector and EDC Lights user point of view, we will not loose time or money on "substandard" flashlights. is it worth the $5 bucks you spend on an energizer LED flashlight or the +$600 Titanium special edition collector's item flashlight. well how much do you want it? For me it's silly to justify why I pay $210 for a 100Lm flashlight, when you can get a 500Lm for half. Because I love flashlights, also because I sometimes can. Simple, no?
It's hard for me to comprehend the urge to justify ones purchases, if we where to use a flashlight only one will suffice why then we have collections of them.

Now to the point, is it expensive enough? will it outlive me? silly things flashlights, they are so simple devices, I still have my first Mag after ~20 years, I can't imagine how much will this new generation of rugged flashlights last, they certainly will outlast me, and hopefully serve my children in a very distant future.
Quality is, in a nut shell, in the eye of the beholder, for me a 7075 Al alloy flashlight with a type III anodize finish equally colored in all their parts, machined of a single Al block is to the next guy a black aluminum tube. If you don't know quality you can't appreciate it. does it cost more to have the best, hell yeah, does it need to be the best?. well is up to you to decide.

I have never owned a surefire, I intend to. But I hate the fact that they are so over priced, I don't mind spending a buck more for the name, R&D is important to me and I support them, But man!, wow, that much?
Also I hate the fact that you need to, in some cases, upgrade your rugged SF with drop ins and the likes to be in trend with the actual market. I have lost to much money on upgrades in other hobbies to start again. So I'll like a SF that needs no mods, and it's worthy to be the first SF light to buy and hopefully not the last.

you get what you pay for, did you know what you got?

 

[march.brown]

Surefire use CR123 batteries.
They, alongside Duracell designed them.

No SF's use 18650's in their stock form, hence why people bore them out to use certain after market drop ins. For example the Malkoff M30, Malkoff M60 etc.

There is only one AA prototype in the works by SF at the moment, that being the E2L AA Outdoorsman.

Thank you DR for answering this query ... Unfortunately , I don't like CR123 cells ... The only multi-cell torches that I would use are either AA or AAA orientated ... In fact the only multi-cell torch that I own is a 3AA Maglite LED that I got cheaply in a sale ... It resides in the kitchen cupboard equipped with Eneloops ,"just in case".

My personal preference is for a single cell 18650 or AA or AAA torch ... I certainly wouldn't consider buying a very expensive torch just to have the body bored-out and a new drop-in added , when there are already a great many torches available that fill the bill perfectly.

I just can't see the point in paying a couple of hundred dollars for an aluminium body-tube with the wrong size hole ... Literally any piece of alloy tubing would suffice when fitted with a top and a tail ! ... You could even choose the wall-thickness to suit its purpose ... If you want one that an elephant can stand on , use a better wall thickness.

I realise that the armed forces and security forces etc prefer to use (throw-away) primary cells and that this sector is the largest volume of sales for Surefire , but this does not affect people like myself ... I just want a reliable single cell torch ... If you are using your torch as in Armed Services or Police , does it matter if the body gets scratched ? ... No of course not ... It just has to work every time ... Any old body tube would do as long as the drop-in and the switch and the battery connections are perfect.

I can understand collectors wanting to have a perfect torch in beautiful condition ... I was like that with my handguns ... My 44 Magnum S & W in high-blue in the fitted cherry-wood casket , My (matching numbers & mint) Luger 1915 , My beautiful Colt 1911 45ACP stainless with compensator and match barrel , My beautiful original 45ACP 1941 , plus several other collectors items that I used several times each week ... Unfortunately for people in the UK , the Dunblane massacre meant that all handguns had to be handed in to the Police to be destroyed ... We all lost many thousands of pounds as the compensation did not cover the true costs ... The people of Dunblane of course lost much more than this ... They lost friends and family.

I do look after my torches now and keep them in perfect condition even though they are all used regularly.

I chose 18650 because it lasts a long time in my torches ... Two and a half hours on full power with considerably more on the lower powers ... The single AA or AAA iTP is perfect for my EDC , particularly the single AA version.

The only modification that I have ever done to a torch (so far) was to my Solarforce L2i ... I extended the body by about 5mm to accept a single 18650 cell rather than the three AAA format ... The 5mm collar and the plastic battery tube cost me nothing ... The torch has a single mode drop-in as standard and lasts for two and a half hours before the cell voltage gets down towards 3.6 volts ... Perfect for my use in the Living Room (just-in-case).

Sorry to go off-thread with the handguns , but I was upset at the loss of my handguns and I miss all the friends that I made when shooting in competitions and at the (now closed) gun-clubs.

Life must go on ... In my case without Surefires !
.

 

[the.Mtn.Man]

I have never owned a surefire, I intend to. But I hate the fact that they are so over priced, I don't mind spending a buck more for the name, R&D is important to me and I support them, But man!, wow, that much?

It's all about perceived value and the notion that spending more gets you a better product. I imagine if Surefire were to cut their prices in half that overtime they would be perceived as a lower quality manufacturer than another company that charged twice as much regardless of whether or not that was actually true.

 

[yuk]

If Surefire cut their prices in half I'll buy all their freakin range. 😀

 

[Armed_Forces]

I've been gone awhile and low and behold, the first thread that gets me in the mood to post is a friggin' Surefire blah, blah, blah thread that has plagued this forum like a bad case of VD that just keeps on giving.


Let me break it down for y'all.


All of these Imports, and I mean EVERY SINGLE ONE, from any third world country, not just flashlights(!), has lowered the public's expectations on what *they* think *they* should have to spend on something. I don't give a damn if you're buying a friggin' pair of shoes, a bloody wrench, a multimeter, sheetrock/granite/cabinets for your stinkin' house, et. al. You've got your choice of buying USA or "other" nearly every time. We've been spoiled by these "artificially" low prices that are the direct result of a de-valued currency and gross exploitation of impoverished people and natural resources. If your conscience lets you sleep good at night knowing that then keep on keepin' on but quit yer bitchin' n moanin' about the stuff that costs more. If the tables were leveled, this topic would never come up!


When you buy from the likes of a company such as Surefire, Fluke, Snap-On, etc. you are buying from a USA company that has drawn a line in the sand and is trying to do their best to support American workers in NORTH America. We should probably just add Mexico as the 51st State! Canada could be number 52. LOL


The seemingly high price of that shiny new E2DL, AZ2, M6, etc. reflects the total cost of manufacturing a QUALITY product within the USA. You either give a poop about that kind of thing or not but a big chunk of that fat price goes to paying skilled workers a living wage, sky high TAXES, EPA regulations, OSHA safety, INSURANCE, 401K, mil-spec materials and R&D. These fly-by-night upstart companies from Asia have nearly none of that to add to their cost of doing business! THAT'S WHY THERE'S SUCH A PRICE DISCREPANCY! Think about what 4Seven's is actually paying for those Chinese lights that you flashaholics are sucking up like Manna from heaven and consider for a minute what that torch would have to cost if it were made in the USA. And be sure to think of all the dollars you are sending to Chairman Hu. Now after saying all that, if you don't need that kind of quality, nor give a poop about the "real price" of manufactured goods and/or just don't have the disposable income to shell out for Surefire, then by all means, keep buying your Commiepinko manufactured torches/products, BUT QUIT BITCHING ABOUT/POSTING THREADS/COMPARING THE HIGH PRICES OF USA MADE PRODUCTS!!!

 

[4sevens]

You sir, Armed_Forces have no clue what you're talking about. Your rant is filled with mis-information, outrageous presumptions and bullish statements. You have no idea what is involved in our design and our costs, neither the process we go through (state-wise) to get the highest performing products in people's hands (thats not marketing, thats the truth).

You sir don't even know whether the products we sell are putting more jobs in the USA or in China. You simply have no clue, yet you make such bold statements. I didn't come here to debate and I won't even begin to validate your rant by responding to them. I'm only here because you dropped our name and I have to come here to say that you do not know what you're talking about.

Are you in the armed forces? Well, we've had multiple reports from armed forces who requested our products for testing and evaluation. They totally rave about it - NOT because of any origin but because they blow away anything else they have. If you don't believe me I'll start quoting them here in this thread after we obtain permission to quote them.

 

[Ecolang]

Not to mention why should I as an EU citizen care to pay considerably more for something made in the USA. Cuts two ways the nationalistic argument. There are way more people in the EU than the USA.

Not to mention the laughable exchange rate that most importers use - my currency is worth way more than the US dollar and I'm not interested in paying more in my currency than the US$ price.

 

[Armed_Forces]

Oh, I don't have a clue ehh?!!
I've been directly involved in manufacturing since long before you were even a member here!

Well I probably shouldn't have singled you out directly like that but what I've said is absolutely true. You're just taking things personally and I simply posed the question of what the price difference would be if you had to source your lights in the USA. Everybody always complains about the high friggin' price of Surefire and I get sick of it. There's a reason they cost what they do and what I laid out is the gist of it and that's no bull nor disinformation! And for your info I've purchased from you in the past and will continue to do so! Sorry to get you in the crossfire but what I said stands.

 

[4sevens]

Oh, I don't have a clue ehh?!!
I've been directly involved in manufacturing since long before you were even a member here!

Well I probably shouldn't have singled you out directly like that but what I've said is absolutely true. You're just taking things personally and I simply posed the question of what the price difference would be if you had to source your lights in the USA. Everybody always complains about the high friggin' price of Surefire and I get sick of it. There's a reason they cost what they do and what I laid out is the gist of it and that's no bull nor disinformation! And for your info I've purchased from you in the past and will continue to do so! Sorry to get you in the crossfire but what I said stands.

So you're not in the armed forces, but you're a manufacturer?

Let me qualify - you have not clue how my company works, yet you presume to make bold statements that presume certain things.

So I'm taking things personally? You drop my company name and refer to it as sucking manna from heaven. Dollars from chairman hu? You really do have no clue. Theres more dollars retained in the USA - more dollars are applied to workers in the USA than china. You infer that we're a fly-by-night business. I think if you were in my shoes you wouldn't react my different.

You throw around fiery terms like - artificially low prices - exploitation of impoverished people. Let me ask you this since you're so experienced and knowledgable. How many times have you visited china and observed things with you own eyes and ears? If so, how many cities? And what did you do there?

One more question, have you ever handled one of our products?

By, the way, I love surefire products. I have the highest respect for their company, their products and the executives that I often wine and dine with. Just because I'm defending myself from your generalization and ranting doesn't mean I agree with the surefire bashing.

 

[LeifUK]

I've been gone awhile and low and behold, the first thread that gets me in the mood to post is a friggin' Surefire blah, blah, blah thread that has plagued this forum like a bad case of VD that just keeps on giving.


Let me break it down for y'all.


All of these Imports, and I mean EVERY SINGLE ONE, from any third world country, not just flashlights(!), has lowered the public's expectations on what *they* think *they* should have to spend on something. I don't give a damn if you're buying a friggin' pair of shoes, a bloody wrench, a multimeter, sheetrock/granite/cabinets for your stinkin' house, et. al. You've got your choice of buying USA or "other" nearly every time. We've been spoiled by these "artificially" low prices that are the direct result of a de-valued currency and gross exploitation of impoverished people and natural resources. If your conscience lets you sleep good at night knowing that then keep on keepin' on but quit yer bitchin' n moanin' about the stuff that costs more. If the tables were leveled, this topic would never come up!


When you buy from the likes of a company such as Surefire, Fluke, Snap-On, etc. you are buying from a USA company that has drawn a line in the sand and is trying to do their best to support American workers in NORTH America. We should probably just add Mexico as the 51st State! Canada could be number 52. LOL


The seemingly high price of that shiny new E2DL, AZ2, M6, etc. reflects the total cost of manufacturing a QUALITY product within the USA. You either give a poop about that kind of thing or not but a big chunk of that fat price goes to paying skilled workers a living wage, sky high TAXES, EPA regulations, OSHA safety, INSURANCE, 401K, mil-spec materials and R&D. These fly-by-night upstart companies from Asia have nearly none of that to add to their cost of doing business! THAT'S WHY THERE'S SUCH A PRICE DISCREPANCY! Think about what 4Seven's is actually paying for those Chinese lights that you flashaholics are sucking up like Manna from heaven and consider for a minute what that torch would have to cost if it were made in the USA. And be sure to think of all the dollars you are sending to Chairman Hu. Now after saying all that, if you don't need that kind of quality, nor give a poop about the "real price" of manufactured goods and/or just don't have the disposable income to shell out for Surefire, then by all means, keep buying your Commiepinko manufactured torches/products, BUT QUIT BITCHING ABOUT/POSTING THREADS/COMPARING THE HIGH PRICES OF USA MADE PRODUCTS!!!

Referring to the Chinese as Commiepinkos is a nice way to offend any Chinese people who might read this forum. I've worked alongside the Chinese, and found them to be very pleasant people.

As a Brit (I hate the term, but you Americans use it) why should I pay expensive American prices?

Incidentally the Chinese are probably grateful for the jobs sales of torches creates. It means that their country can develop, and their children can get a good education, and a good future. Our manufacturing sector largely disappeared in the 70's and 80's, and now we survive on intellectual capital, services, and tourism.

Psst: The Cold War is over.

Another psst: have you seen Dr. Strangelove? Are you related to the officer played by George C. Scott? 😀

 

[Greg G]

I've been gone awhile and low and behold, the first thread that gets me in the mood to post is a friggin' Surefire blah, blah, blah thread that has plagued this forum like a bad case of VD that just keeps on giving.


Let me break it down for y'all.


All of these Imports, and I mean EVERY SINGLE ONE, from any third world country, not just flashlights(!), has lowered the public's expectations on what *they* think *they* should have to spend on something. I don't give a damn if you're buying a friggin' pair of shoes, a bloody wrench, a multimeter, sheetrock/granite/cabinets for your stinkin' house, et. al. You've got your choice of buying USA or "other" nearly every time. We've been spoiled by these "artificially" low prices that are the direct result of a de-valued currency and gross exploitation of impoverished people and natural resources. If your conscience lets you sleep good at night knowing that then keep on keepin' on but quit yer bitchin' n moanin' about the stuff that costs more. If the tables were leveled, this topic would never come up!


When you buy from the likes of a company such as Surefire, Fluke, Snap-On, etc. you are buying from a USA company that has drawn a line in the sand and is trying to do their best to support American workers in NORTH America. We should probably just add Mexico as the 51st State! Canada could be number 52. LOL


The seemingly high price of that shiny new E2DL, AZ2, M6, etc. reflects the total cost of manufacturing a QUALITY product within the USA. You either give a poop about that kind of thing or not but a big chunk of that fat price goes to paying skilled workers a living wage, sky high TAXES, EPA regulations, OSHA safety, INSURANCE, 401K, mil-spec materials and R&D. These fly-by-night upstart companies from Asia have nearly none of that to add to their cost of doing business! THAT'S WHY THERE'S SUCH A PRICE DISCREPANCY! Think about what 4Seven's is actually paying for those Chinese lights that you flashaholics are sucking up like Manna from heaven and consider for a minute what that torch would have to cost if it were made in the USA. And be sure to think of all the dollars you are sending to Chairman Hu. Now after saying all that, if you don't need that kind of quality, nor give a poop about the "real price" of manufactured goods and/or just don't have the disposable income to shell out for Surefire, then by all means, keep buying your Commiepinko manufactured torches/products, BUT QUIT BITCHING ABOUT/POSTING THREADS/COMPARING THE HIGH PRICES OF USA MADE PRODUCTS!!!

 

[Armed_Forces]

So you're not in the armed forces, but you're a manufacturer?

Let me qualify - you have not clue how my company works, yet you presume to make bold statements that presume certain things.

So I'm taking things personally? You drop my company name and refer to it as sucking manna from heaven. Dollars from chairman hu? You really do have no clue. Theres more dollars retained in the USA - more dollars are applied to workers in the USA than china. You infer that we're a fly-by-night business. I think if you were in my shoes you wouldn't react my different.

You throw around fiery terms like - artificially low prices - exploitation of impoverished people. Let me ask you this since you're so experienced and knowledgable. How many times have you visited china and observed things with you own eyes and ears? If so, how many cities? And what did you do there?

One more question, have you ever handled one of our products?

By, the way, I love surefire products. I have the highest respect for their company, their products and the executives that I often wine and dine with. Just because I'm defending myself from your generalization and ranting doesn't mean I agree with the surefire bashing.

I've retired from the USAF after giving over 20 years of devotion and duty to this country! Presently serving as a private contractor/consultant with the "Armed Forces", thus the moniker. All the while running a manufacturing business on the side that will be what I continue to do when I finish my present obligations.


Like I said, because you're taking things personally, you're taking things out of context and reading things that aren't there, e.g. the Manna sucking is *from* the flashaholics. I see that really got your goat. I'm glad you liked that. I don't have time right now for a bunch of back 'n forth but suffice to say, I've been to Shenzhen, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Manila, Okinawa, hell, all over Asia/Indonesia! so don't even try to go there. I've been there on duty as well as doing private sector recon. Seen the good and the bad and know it's not like some backwoods dump like you're probably thinking I'm trying to imply. My point is that the political/economic playground isn't nowhere near even and that's why everyone is doing business there. Not just the US! ..and I know good and well that you can get any type of quality you're willing to pay for, not just crap like a lot of people think. I've posted about this before. Never handled one your lights but plan on seeing some now that I'm stateside for a bit. That's all I got time for right now, got an appointment.

 

[march.brown]

If everyone in America buys a non-American torch , the American torch manufacturers will just go out of business ... In the days when Fountain Pens were the ideal writing instrument , the UK had a lot of pen manufacturers ... As cheap imports came into the country after the war , our pen manufacturers had to reduce prices and quality and eventually they went into liquidation ... All the pen manufacturers went bankrupt ... This was not helped either by the introduction of the new-fangled ballpoint pen by Lazlo Biro.

In the UK , we don't seem to have any Flashlight manufacturers so we tend to buy from the most cost-effective source which just happens to be the Far East ... I can't justify spending the high prices asked for American torches when in my opinion a perfectly satisfactory Solarforce (for example) can be bought for about a tenth of the price.

If I was American then I would probably think differently ... I am 72 now and have seen the problems caused by the influx of cheaper goods into the UK.

As far as the American Flashlight industry is concerned ... Support them or lose them.
.

 

[the.Mtn.Man]

You sir don't even know whether the products we sell are putting more jobs in the USA or in China.

Armed_Forces' comments remind me of the rants against foreign automakers that seem oblivious to the fact that a foreign maker like Toyota employs more American workers than any of the American auto companies (perhaps combined). Not only do they employ American workers in US factories but also at the thousands of dealerships across the country.

Patriotic chest-thumping is all well and good if someone knows what they're talking about, but doing it ignorantly grates on my nerves.

 

[Greg G]

Hmmmm. Am I an un-patriotic American because I mod my Surefires with better LED's? Sometimes taking out Korean LED's and replacing them with U.S. made ones is what a flashaholic has to do to have a 100% American light.

If I'm taking out foreign parts and repalcing them with U.S. parts that work better, who is the un-patriotic party in this deal? The maker or the modder?

I despise paying a premium price and not getting a premium product. I live in a capitalist country. If a company can't deliver the goods I pay for then I move on. How many chances do you give a company until you realize they can't make you happy?

I don't know. It really pisses me off when someone tells me I'm unpatriotic because I don't I refuse to bend over anymore.

If that's the kind of arrogance American companies continue to show they will go out of business. Let someone else take their place.

 

[Mr Bigglow]

Armed_Forces, you have my vote. You other guys with the remarks about the cold war etc, at such times you are actually using leftist style cold-war tactics to stifle your opponent! :huh: ...which suddenly makes me seriously wonder about 4Sevens, I mean the company- although I submit they do make pretty good flashlights that are worth what they charge for them- just like Surefire does on both counts, only their lights are disproportionately better. The root difference, the socially important one, is that at the manufactoring end the paid value does not return to the workers of one of the companies, and I don't mean the ones in the Capitalist country.

Anyway Lads let's not have the flashlight cold war go nuclear. Coffee and flashlights at dawn, that's the answer!