You get what you pay for...or DO you?

[ky70]

As for quality, fit & finish, nothing comes close to SF...that is my opinion and it has been that way since the early 90's.

I generally have a hard time believing absolute statements like this. I don't have a Surefire nor do I have many of SFs competitors, but during these competitive times in most industries, I find it difficult to believe that the "best" in a product field does not have a serious challenger in both quality and price...especially the LED flashlight segment as it's not new and companies have had much time to close quality gaps that SF may have maintained for years.

I look forward to discovering SF lights personally and finding out for myself if they're that much better than the competition, but for now I'm just an interested observer with doubts that any "favorite" in the flashlight LED arena could be lapping the competetion .

 

[mn_doggie]

Re: You get what you pay for...or DO you?

Definitely not when it comes to taxes and government.....

Someone once said, we're lucky we don't get the government we pay for....😀


Very new to CPF, so far I've been pretty pleased with my "imported" purchases. I've paid less that I could afford at this point 'cuz I'm still deciphering what options are available and am trying to decide just what I need.

Look forward to buying other lights. Will buy based more on preceived value rather than source alone.

 

[LeifUK]

Different market. Their flashlights are aimed at enthusiasts and collectors who buy several flashlights a year as opposed to Surefire that appeals primarily to law enforcement or search and rescue professionals who will buy one flashlight and stick with it. Part of the reason Surefire is so expensive is not simply because of the quality but because they move less inventory than a company like Nitecore or Fenix.

Isn't the main reason why they are so expensive the fact that they manufacture in the US? Labour rates are much higher in the west. The quality has to be higher otherwise they would not sell, since the Chinese compete on price.

 

[kramer5150]

I generally have a hard time believing absolute statements like this. I don't have a Surefire nor do I have many of SFs competitors, but during these competitive times in most industries, I find it difficult to believe that the "best" in a product field does not have a serious challenger in both quality and price...especially the LED flashlight segment as it's not new and companies have had much time to close quality gaps that SF may have maintained for years.

I look forward to discovering SF lights personally and finding out for myself if they're that much better than the competition, but for now I'm just an interested observer with doubts that any "favorite" in the flashlight LED arena could be lapping the competetion .

I too have a hard time believing generalized statements. But in the case of Surefire, every one I have held has felt solid, hefty and a feel of quality, compared to similar form-factor competition. I go into CPF meets with an open mind, sampling a little of everything, and when the meet is over its the Surefire brand as a whole that remains the most impressive of the non-boutique / non-custom lights.

I also like fit/feel/finish of the Jetbeam lights I have handled. IMHO they are overall very close to SF, and one of the best chinese manufacturers.... again in terms of brands as a whole.

 

[LeifUK]

At least now there should be no question as to why Surefire is popular in the US. The US military would put their tools through its paces more rigorously than any citizen(more by virtue of the fact that their use of tools is far more regular than the average citizen). So why not use what our troops use?

The military have very different requirements to most of us. For example, they probably require that a torch pass various tests such as surviving adverse conditions, including rain, sand, dust, extreme cold and heat etc, which are irrelevant for normal home use. It may well be that Fenix ect lights could survive the tests, but I suspect that a Chinese company would not want to spend money certifying their equipment on the off change the US government might buy some. The US government probably would not buy from China anyway, given that China is a potential enemy, and security of supply is important.

Paying a premium for something simply because its better than what I currently have... is a good enough reason IMHO. On a more detail level, here is what you are getting for your $$$.

-Unmatched typeIII quality, and feel in the hand.
-Lifetime replacement parts warranty + customer service.
-Flat regulated output, 200+ Lumens as verified by independent CPF reviewers.
-Support of American labor and an American company.
-Surefire reputation of durability and design robustness.
-Abundant supply of used replacement / lego parts on the CPF marketplace.
-Aftermarket designs from third party vendors that are based off the Surefire E series designs.
-Surefire accessories
-Sense of satisfaction owning a product, and backing a company that complies to the Berry Ammendment, and issued to US armed forces.
-Sense of satisfaction from supporting a design originator and original patent holder... over an imitation.
-Several very reputable CPF modders are at your disposal to transform it into whatever you want.

These are the key points in the E2DL, there are others too. Whether or not these are perks you are willing to pay for is up to you. Its a great light, I dont think you will be disappointed. I recently got the more toned down E2L and am happy with my purchase. I didn't buy it for its brightness, I bought it for its run times with RCR123 cells, at the 110 lumen level.

Another option I think you should consider would be a C2, paired with a Malkoff drop in. C2s go for ~$65 on ebay. You should be able to get a complete setup for under $150.

I suspect that most of those benefits are irrelevant to most torch users, unless they want bragging rights. Especially since many torches will end up being left in a car only to be stolen during the annual service, or left on a bus or somewhere else for someone else to find, and so on. I don't doubt some people will prefer Surefire with good reason.

 

[kramer5150]

The military have very different requirements to most of us. For example, they probably require that a torch pass various tests such as surviving adverse conditions, including rain, sand, dust, extreme cold and heat etc, which are irrelevant for normal home use. It may well be that Fenix ect lights could survive the tests, but I suspect that a Chinese company would not want to spend money certifying their equipment on the off change the US government might buy some. The US government probably would not buy from China anyway, given that China is a potential enemy, and security of supply is important.



I suspect that most of those benefits are irrelevant to most torch users, unless they want bragging rights. Especially since many torches will end up being left in a car only to be stolen during the annual service, or left on a bus or somewhere else for someone else to find, and so on. I don't doubt some people will prefer Surefire with good reason.

This is a little off topic, but what the heck I think I can word this without offending anyone. With the California economy in shambles, companies flocking overseas, unemployment in the double digits, and CA residents loosing jobs faster than I can remember, I find there is a certain amount of satisfaction buying a Surefire.

The NUMMI Plant in Fremont, a 25 year joint-venture between Toyota and GM is closing for good this week. ~3200 Bay area residents will be left jobless. Furthermore, everal thousand supplier employees working across the state supplying parts to the assembly lines will also be out of work.

Call it bragging rights, snobbery, racism... whatever. It is what it is... a sense of satisfaction supporting a local company, made by fellow Californians on US soil. Sure my little purchase of one SF light every 5-6 months cant really help... but it certainly does not hurt.

 

[the.Mtn.Man]

I generally have a hard time believing absolute statements like this. I don't have a Surefire nor do I have many of SFs competitors, but during these competitive times in most industries, I find it difficult to believe that the "best" in a product field does not have a serious challenger in both quality and price...especially the LED flashlight segment as it's not new and companies have had much time to close quality gaps that SF may have maintained for years.

I agree. When you look at the number of Surefire's competitors that have survived destructive testing, it's hard to buy claims that Surefire flashlights are always the best in every way.

To put it another way, while Surefire makes great flashlights, they're not the only company to do so.

 

[Vortus]

Howdy

Noob to this hobby but as this same discussion seems to cross forums for every hobby across the internet figure to add my .02. IE in camcorders (as Sony was mentioned earlier), some brands thats definitely true. Quite a few of my family like Panasonic video products, TV's, Camcorders etc. Though Panasonic makes some of the cheap stuff on the market today, they also make some of the best if you are willing to shell out the coin. Heh, and actually have a use for it. There is a significant difference between the top of the line consumer (HDC-HS700K) and professional products (AJ-HPX3000). To my eye on the screen, not a bit of difference. But to my uncle who uses them for a living, huge difference. It comes down to the individual choice, details, and how much the individual cares about the details. Along with how much the individual is willing to pay for those details.

 

[psychbeat]

This is a little off topic, but what the heck I think I can word this without offending anyone. With the California economy in shambles, companies flocking overseas, unemployment in the double digits, and CA residents loosing jobs faster than I can remember, I find there is a certain amount of satisfaction buying a Surefire.

The NUMMI Plant in Fremont, a 25 year joint-venture between Toyota and GM is closing for good this week. ~3200 Bay area residents will be left jobless. Furthermore, everal thousand supplier employees working across the state supplying parts to the assembly lines will also be out of work.

Call it bragging rights, snobbery, racism... whatever. It is what it is... a sense of satisfaction supporting a local company, made by fellow Californians on US soil. Sure my little purchase of one SF light every 5-6 months cant really help... but it certainly does not hurt.

yeah I like supporting the artisans on this board as well!!
I run a small poster printing business for indie bands and
somehow it just feels "right" to spend a little more on a
nailbender, electronguru, 4sevens (no matter where they manu)
anto, malkoff etc etc.
Its pretty cool to have direct contact with the people making yer
stuff!! NO MATTER WHAT COUNTRY they live in 😉

 

[LeifUK]

This is a little off topic, but what the heck I think I can word this without offending anyone. With the California economy in shambles, companies flocking overseas, unemployment in the double digits, and CA residents loosing jobs faster than I can remember, I find there is a certain amount of satisfaction buying a Surefire.

The NUMMI Plant in Fremont, a 25 year joint-venture between Toyota and GM is closing for good this week. ~3200 Bay area residents will be left jobless. Furthermore, everal thousand supplier employees working across the state supplying parts to the assembly lines will also be out of work.

Call it bragging rights, snobbery, racism... whatever. It is what it is... a sense of satisfaction supporting a local company, made by fellow Californians on US soil. Sure my little purchase of one SF light every 5-6 months cant really help... but it certainly does not hurt.

There's nothing wrong with that attitude. Now, which UK made torch shall I buy next, err, mmm, slight problem, ahem, errr, oh dear ...

 

[SFG2Lman]

i look at it this way: For the price of a brand new corvette, you could probably buy 2 or 3 honda civics and drop turbo kits and such in there and make all three faster than the vette. The difference is on one hand you still have 3 economy cars, on the other hand you have a corvette. Its not all about speed (lumens/output) there are a lot of nuances in a light, and to some extent, yes, bragging rights. But who's never thought it would be great to have a vette? Odds are that vette will still be running 30 years from now, odds are also good those 3 honda civics are either wrapped around a tree or blown up and rotting in a junkyard 30 years from now. I'm not trying to say Surefire is the the absolute best, we have a few ferraris and lambo custom light-makers around (mmmm handstitched italian leather light) But as far a major manufacturer's go, Surefire has it, by a long shot. Don't get me wrong, I adore my quarks...to an unhealthy point, but my 6P is just beautiful (yes i carry both, daily)

 

[lapd.erik]

Wow seems like this topic always gets heated around here and i always wonder why. To me i love my Surefire's. My dad used them when he was a cop in Los Angeles and now i am doing the same 20 years later. Surefire is a huge brand name and it will be hard to beat. Every shotgun in our department has a Surefire 6p led mounted on them in the gun cage, and a 9p in our crown vics. Whatever flashlight you guys love rock on, and stay safe.
-Erik

 

[recDNA]

Assuming sf "quality" is better what exactly does that mean? I've read plenty of posts about broken sf. And what do sf owners do? Bore out the tube so I guess tube isn't perfect. Get a mcclicky so I guess clicky isn't ideal. Replace the p60 because the leds are a generation behind. And of course we'll need to replace the lens...so what's left?
If we leave it exactly as is and it lasts 20 years do you really want to be 20 years behind the technology curve?

 

[TKC]

Without a doubt, Surefire IS better quality than Streamlight. Surefire is better quality than pretty much any other in the production world, and without equal. Anyone who says otherwise is either biased or ignorant.

That said, Surefire is not always the brightest.

They are too large of a company, with too much internal strife, to be as fast and maneuverable as the smaller companies like 4sevens, Olight, Fenix, etcetera.

But they also spend far more money on R&D and sell more flashlights than any of the small companies that have gained favor here. Surefire is not exactly on the leading edge of high output LEDs but that is not their promise. They are innovators in design, creating the two-stage switch, the P60 lamp/drop-in system, the lockout tailcap, and pioneered the usage of 123's in flashlights. They create reliable, tough and simple to use flashlights that you can use into the ground. They have world class customer service that will replace broken bulbs, worn out clicky boots, broken or melted windows at the drop of a hat.

I myself have dozens of Surefire. I also have 4sevens, Fenix, Olight, Inova, Streamlight, Peak, Pelican, LRI and plenty others. You want to try some real quality? Try the Surefire Saint, which is a headlamp without equal. Or try the LX2 or E2DL or E1B. Or check out a C-series Surefire of your choice and a Malkoff M61. Trust me, you'll be blown away.

By the way, I have also seen a Solarforce L2. Not even close to the 6P. Both are dumb hosts, yes, but the Solarforce is cheap junk by a long shot.

If you want to simply have the brightest, most cutting edge LEDs, look elsewhere. But if you want quality, elegant design, and support one of the biggest innovators, Surefire is the only choice.

Well said!!

Yes, you DO get what you pay for.

 

[Ecolang]

Wow seems like this topic always gets heated around here and i always wonder why. To me i love my Surefire's. My dad used them when he was a cop in Los Angeles and now i am doing the same 20 years later. Surefire is a huge brand name and it will be hard to beat. Every shotgun in our department has a Surefire 6p led mounted on them in the gun cage, and a 9p in our crown vics. Whatever flashlight you guys love rock on, and stay safe.
-Erik

Good point. I do not own, and probably never will, own a Surefire but my needs and wants are different from yours.

Each to his own. The brand bashing threads really do get to be a bore.

Like you say - and say very well IM(not at all humble)O - rock on, and stay safe.

 

[a1penguin]

I put bright Junkfire on my bike because I know that someday I might crash/fall get rained on and it will stop working. For $20-40 I can replace the broken Junkfire. I would not like having to replace a $150-200 Surefire.

I have a couple of Quarks and Jetbeam and indeed the quality is better, and IMHO think the prices are fair. But I don't need a Surefire, the Lexus of flashlights, for personal use. If my life depended on my flashlight, I would made different decisions.

But I did buy myself a present.... a Lummi Raw, which I am waiting to receive. Total Bling 🙂

Flashlights are like cars: everyone has different standards and wants. It's very personal and I respect personal decisions. As for "getting what you pay for", it's way too subjective. Define some criteria and then people can decide if a product meets the bar.

 

[vasp1]

If my life depended on my flashlight, I would made different decisions.
:
:
Flashlights are like cars: everyone has different standards and wants. It's very personal and I respect personal decisions. As for "getting what you pay for", it's way too subjective. Define some criteria and then people can decide if a product meets the bar.

Totally agree. If your livelihood depends on having reliable tools then perhaps it's safe to assume that if it's good enough for the police and the military then it's good enough for most jobs.

I'm very, very new to this whole torch "thing". I've only a few Chinese lights from DX so perhaps I'm not best placed to comment.

Earlier in this thread one CPFer says he has "dozens" of SFs. Even if he only meets the minimum threshold that's 24 torches. With the best will in the world I can't imagine why you'd actually *need* 24 torches. The gentleman is obviously a big SF fan and has the funds to support the collection. Isn't that what collecting anything is all about?

 

[Greg G]

I think some people make too much of the Type 3 hard anodizing. My *work* L5 is covered in bare aluminum marks. It does not hold up appreciably better than Type 2 in my experience.

I have bought my last new Surefire. I will however continue to buy parted out Surefires as they make trendy hosts.

 

[Noctis]

I've decided to try to get the best of both worlds.

A Surefire 6P bored body with a 18650 cell and an SST-50 dropin.

From what NailBender tells me(unless I misunderstood him), I ought to be able to get 550 lumens with that setup.

The great irony is that the total cost will be about $203-$207, which seems to be about the same as that SST-90 from Lighthound.

 

[psychbeat]

yer gonna be stoked on it. the NB sst 50s have a super nice
BIG hotspot and wide spill. mines got a nice buttery tint too!
get sum AW 18650 2600mah and yer DONE!

oh and trim the spring a bit so the head screws down without
a gap. or take the spring off and smash some foil in there (what I did)


its a SICK light- who cares what brand it is!!:nana::nana::nana: