EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 7

Status
Not open for further replies.

idleprocess

Flashaholic
Joined
Feb 29, 2004
Messages
7,197
Location
decamped
[ QUOTE ]

Darell said:
Yeah. Not pretty. I know the owners of both these companies... and I probably don't know much more than you do about where they stand today! I have begged them both to increase their exposure and PR... but it falls on deaf ears. They don't want to "waste" the time or money on that. But jeez - they NEED the support of the EV community, and if we're kept in the dark, I'm not sure what they hope to gain. This has frustrated me for several years now. I wish I had better news! I keep hearing "There's nothing to say until we have product." But that just isn't true. If we're expected to purchase these things, we need to start saving, or but off a second vehicle purchase to afford it... or whatever. It is a purchase that needs to be planed for, not a spur-of-the-moment thing, ya know? OK. Preaching to the choir here, I'm sure.

[...]

Well, the company is real, the guys behind it are real, the prototypes (many of them!) are real... and now we finally have one *real* delivered "production" vehicle. What has to happen before the rest of it becomes real is a large infusion of money - or at least promises of purchase from people who put deposits down. No money, no car. Simple as that. I'm considering putting a deposit down on a second one, actually.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't doubt that Commuter Cars or the Tango are real - there are too many photos and movies out there. What bothers me is that there's not a steady stream of information, news pieces, and press releases like most startups keep pushing through...

I'm interested enough in the T100 that I'd quite likely put down that deposit ... if I could afford it. But I'm not feeling confident about Commuter Cars, Inc since the only news I can find about them is a big "aged."

I get the impression that AC Propulsion makes some money on the two kit products they sell and a bit more doing concept vehicles/demonstrators for automakers/etc.

[ QUOTE ]

Darell said:
[ QUOTE ]

idleprocess said:
I need to drive ~50 miles/day currently, so I need more than ~500 cycles from my battery pack


[/ QUOTE ]

This really isn't a problem with current high-density pba packs. No point in arguing about any sort of batteries until the vehicle is even available. These *can* be VERY practical cars for a 50-mile commute. We'd be buying one for a 40-mile RT commute.

[/ QUOTE ]

Per commutercars.com:
Battery replacement is the largest portion of the cost-per-mile for an electric car. To demonstrate how this works, we use Optima's cycle life vs. depth of discharge graph. This graph applies to laboratory-controlled charge and discharge cycles, yet is quite indicative of the effects of driver habits. If the Tango were driven to 80% DOD (depth of discharge) or more (approximately 64 to 80 miles regularly between charges), the pack will only yield 250 cycles. This works out to approximately 16 cents per mile with current Optima Yellow Top prices of $100. However, if discharged to 25% DOD (20 to 24 miles between charges), the chart shows 4,000 cycles can be achieved yielding 80,000 miles with a cost of only 3.1 cents per mile.

Exide Deep-cycle batteries & Optima Yellow Top "dual purpose starting and deep cycle" batteries

Right now, recharging at work is not an option and probably never will be, so I'm looking at replacing a ~$2500 battery pack roughly ONCE A YEAR if I push 60 miles/day. I don't want to know what happens to the range once you get near the end of cycle life. True, this is all theory, but it's what Commuter Cars has published, and it's very troubling.

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the EV groups are email reflectors. I don't know of any reasonable ones that are CPF-like, at least. ... Many Yahoo groups.

[/ QUOTE ]

General - I'm seeking more information about EVs in general, preferably from people that have owned or driven them. I guess I'll email you about it or look around myself.
 

dukeleto

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
187
Location
France
Oh yeah Darell, I saw your wacky bikes, and boy I want one!
Something I noticed: all of the bikes have some type of fancypancy drive system to transfer power to the back wheel,
except for the last one, the "racing" bike. Does that mean their new system is less efficient /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif
Olivier

*edit*
just found this link unfortunately. Pity!
 

Darell

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 14, 2001
Messages
18,644
Location
LOCO is more like it.
Ah, good catch, Oliver. I looked around briefly, and couldn't find anything. I figured something had to be up since 100% of them were "rendered."
 

Darell

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 14, 2001
Messages
18,644
Location
LOCO is more like it.
[ QUOTE ]
idleprocess said:
What bothers me is that there's not a steady stream of information, news pieces, and press releases like most startups keep pushing through...

[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed. Sounds like it bugs you as much as it bugs me! It is frustrating to say the least, but nobody asked for my opinion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif These guys seem to feel that PR is only something that is done when you have lots of extra money sitting around. I have offered my services for FREE to help spread info... but have not been taken up on it. One thing that you can do is contact Rick Woodbury (Tango), or Tom Gage (ACP) directly and ask any questions you wish. Rick will likely get back to you with LOTS of detailed info. Tom... maybe not. I assume their email address are available on the respective sites. If not, I can get them for you.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm interested enough in the T100 that I'd quite likely put down that deposit ... if I could afford it. But I'm not feeling confident about Commuter Cars, Inc since the only news I can find about them is a big "aged."

[/ QUOTE ]
Remember that you aren't paying anybody a deposit for a Tango. It is deposited in an escrow account in YOUR name. You are the only one who can touch it, and it can be withdrawn at any time. Yes, you have to make do without the $500, and you lose the interest on it, but you haven't just sent it off never to see it again. If fresh info is what you crave, please do send Rick an email to ask any questions you may have.

[ QUOTE ]
I get the impression that AC Propulsion makes some money on the two kit products they sell and a bit more doing concept vehicles/demonstrators for automakers/etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
If by "make some money" you mean make profit, I can say with some certainty that that is not the case! Yes, they have a bit of income from various ventures, but certainly not enough to pay the bills! They need to get some product out the door that we can purchase!

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to know what happens to the range once you get near the end of cycle life. True, this is all theory, but it's what Commuter Cars has published, and it's very troubling.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, what happens to range at the end of cycle life is pretty much the definition of "end of cycle life." No surprise. The range gradually begins to drop off as the battery will accept less and less charge.

All good points on the batteries and what has been published. The fact still remains that we don't know WHAT batteries will be used if/when these cars finally see the light of day. The high-density advanced pba Panasonics in the EV1 were rated at about 500 cycles, and many folks managed 70k+ miles before any degredation of range showed up. And that battery tech is now 10 years old!
 

AilSnail

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Messages
1,299
Location
Bergen, No
I'm looking fore a faster and cheaper way to commute to work than paying $5 for sitting one and a half hours on a bus traveling about 25km. (and repeat after work)
So I was thinking it might be possible to use an electric scooter or assisted bicycle or something.
something going about 50 kmh (in a bit slopes too, and there are lots of uphills here) would be sufficient. How much power is needed for that? any pointer to good products would be appreciated. any of them incorporate electrical braking, where you charge the batteries when you brake? how much good is that idea? lots of rain here too.
 

jtr1962

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 22, 2003
Messages
7,506
Location
Flushing, NY
To hold 50km/hr on a bike/scooter you need about 1 HP. I can maintain those kinds of speeds for a few minutes when I ride but not longer(a human can only put out ~0.3 to 0.5 HP on a continual basis). If you add a 5% grade to the mix then you'll need maybe another HP or so to hold the speed on the grade. That's 2HP total, and on the level you'll probably max out at around 40 mph.

I never looked into it because powered scooters (gas or electric) are illegal in NYC but I believe plenty of vehicles exist which meet those criteria.
 

Darell

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 14, 2001
Messages
18,644
Location
LOCO is more like it.
[ QUOTE ]
AilSnail said:
So I was thinking it might be possible to use an electric scooter or assisted bicycle or something.

[/ QUOTE ]
What distance do you need to go. My first response is "look into a good bicycle." That way you get exercise during the otherwise wasted commute time. Really, the main thing holding me back from buying an electric scoot is because I know I'll use it instead of my bike, and will end up getting out of shape again!

If you want something serious, then get on the list for this one: http://www.vectrixusa.com/index3.html
 

AilSnail

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Messages
1,299
Location
Bergen, No
Like I said, Darell, about 25km each way and I can charge at work. Uh, did you think I had not thought of a bicycle?

edit: That scooter/mc looks neat, but probably very expensive and also unavailable. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 

AilSnail

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Messages
1,299
Location
Bergen, No
any of you have a clue on the various hub motors on the market? As always, once I get interested in a topic I want to make something myself.

edit: clarification: looking for a pneumo tire dia of perhaps 12" or so.
 

Darell

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 14, 2001
Messages
18,644
Location
LOCO is more like it.
Oops. I screwed up a couple of things, I see. For some reason, I read "25km" as 25km/hr. Thought you were complaining of the slow bus speed, not distance. OK, so knowing 25km is the distance, I can't really tell if you've considered a bicycle. I ride at least 25km each day (yes, that's only your one-way trip) and I have commuted more than twice that distance by bike for past jobs.

Next up is the scooter. Most of the better ones DO employ regenerative braking, and it can add 10% or so to your range, while saving your brakes. I think that is significant enough to look for. Yes, the one I pointed to will be expensive - it will also be one of the best available. There are MANY cheaper and lower quality ones on the market today. Just google electric scooter and you'll have lots of hits. If I'm going to be out in traffic on one of these things, I want something that's gonna be able to keep up!

As for hub motors, I know next to nothing. I do think that we'll see more of them as EVs begin again to make some inroads. I know of another quality scooter (can't find it right now) that has about a 12" rear wheel with a hub motor in it.
 

Darell

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 14, 2001
Messages
18,644
Location
LOCO is more like it.
Oooh. Sexy car. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I love it when high-schoolers show how relatively simple this could be.

Biodiesel/BEV hybrid. That's about my ideal second vehicle at this point.
 

gadget_lover

Flashaholic
Joined
Oct 7, 2003
Messages
7,147
Location
Near Silicon Valley (too near)
I like the fact that they are doing this kind of work too, but I would never look at something like this and assume that the end result is viable without more information. I could not get any of their links to work, so I could not read any of the specs or stories about it. There was no mention of how they charge the batteries.

It's easy to add an electric boost assist to just about any car, but the trick is to do it so that the car remains safe and drivable. Throwing 300 horses at the front wheels sounds simple, but I imagine it could play havock with the handling if you punch it in a corner. It can be done properly, but I'm not sure I'd do it that way.

High school projects tend to be like a talking dog. You are so amazed that the dog talks that you don't even notice the bad grammar. Likewise, the 0-60 time is so neat that no one asks how long it can sustain the electric boost, or if it's introduced problems that have yet to be addresses. They don't ask if the car is set up to run on electric only. They don't ask a lot of things.

Don't get me wrong. The project is neat and they have reason to be proud. If properly adressed, the concept might work well. 50MPG and quick is pretty cool.

Daniel
 

IlluminatingBikr

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
2,320
I heard today that FedEx is going to start using some diesel hybrid vehicles for their fleet. I think this is a great move on their part.

Question: can you use biodiesel in an ordinary diesel vehicle?
 

ikendu

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 30, 2001
Messages
1,853
Location
Iowa
[ QUOTE ]
IlluminatingBikr said:
I heard today that FedEx is going to start using some diesel hybrid vehicles for their fleet. I think this is a great move on their part.

Question: can you use biodiesel in an ordinary diesel vehicle?

[/ QUOTE ]

Daimler/Chrysler has built something like 40 of these diesel/electric plug-in hybrids. This is very interesting technology that I hope finds its way into the mainstream quickly!

Yes! Biodiesel can be run in any diesel vehicle with no modifications what-so-ever. Although, older diesels (pre-1995) used rubber for the fuel lines and seals so those would need to be replaced. I've been running 100% biodiesel in my off-the-lot, stock, 2003 VW Golf TDI (diesel) since March, 2003. I've got over 50,000 miles now and really love using this renewable fuel! I get 44 mpg on B100 (100% biodiesel).

My diesel runs quieter, cleaner and smoother on biodiesel. There is a club in my area that makes their own biodiesel from discarded restaurant fryer oil for about 80 cents a gallon.

Visit my web site for the full low down on biodiesel!
 

BB

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 17, 2003
Messages
2,129
Location
SF Bay Area
This will send shivers down your spine:

China Gas Crisis (with pictures):

China Oil Shortage:

[ QUOTE ]
SHANGHAI (AFP) - The Chinese government and its state-owned oil companies are locked in battle over artificially low gasoline prices at the pump that has caused a massive shortage in the southern manufacturing province of Guangdong.

For weeks skyrocketing global oil prices and rising demand has led to a fuel-supply crunch as domestic refineries have been caught short in Guangdong.

Some fear it is only a matter of time before gas-guzzling cities such as Shanghai are hit too.

The government has blamed recent stormy weather for the shortfall, which is feasible but not enough to result in the kilometre long queues at filling stations that drivers in Guangdong have endured for nearly a month.

As oil prices climbed, a standoff erupted between China's National Development Reform Commission (NDRC) -- a key economic policy planning body -- and the country's two largest state oil groups PetroChina and Sinopec, analysts said Wednesday.

The crisis highlights the persistent problems Beijing faces as the economy is transformed to a more market-based system but that is often retarded by authorities who fear loosing political control in the face of full-fledged capitalist rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

-Bill
 

ikendu

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 30, 2001
Messages
1,853
Location
Iowa
Here is the growth in oil consumption from 2004:

2004%20oil%20growth.GIF


I'm thinking that we are heading for a collision with China over who gets what's left of the world's oil.
 

ikendu

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 30, 2001
Messages
1,853
Location
Iowa
[ QUOTE ]
PlayboyJoeShmoe said:Get them Biodiesel guys to start selling it more places!

[/ QUOTE ]

No kidding. If things continue they way they have in the last year, there will be many Americans wondering... "Why haven't we been cranking up our biofuels industry? Somebody should have been able to see that we would be running short on oil!" .

We've had the technology for quite a while now to seriously start getting off of imported oil. We've just been sleeping along into the future.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top