How or when to use defense weapons?

I live 20 feet from the bus stop and can hear the bus before it ever arrives. I quickly leave and enter my apartment with keys and a folding knife in hand.

I am looking at getting my license and driving to get a second job since the bus doesnt run in the county on weekends, holidays, or after or before 6am/pm.

Ive never had any problems where i live the past 5 years, but get weekly crime solver notes on my door about crimes that occur in the area, from time to time get knocks at the door at 2am and for a week broken bottles at bottom of wheelchair ramp.

What has scared me the most, at least til I can save up enough to move from getting a second job is getting robbed, car jacked, etc when entering or leaving my apartment or car at late night/early morning. Sure robberies have occured at 2pm and in one case 8am, but i fear the night for the unknown and limited visability.

I was thinking about getting mace, pepper, spray, tear gas, taser/stun gun, etc, but had a concern. When do you use it? If you cant shoot first, then how does it detur a crimnal act? Do you walk with it in your hand in plain view?

I am not sure how to answer all your questions but I do know the answer in regards to protecting yourself with a firearm.

If you feel that your life is in danger and you have a gun do this. First clearly state to the perp that you are armed and will shoot if perp tries to harm you. Tell perp to back away and not to come any closer. If worst comes to worst and the perp comes after you and you must fire then tell the officers that you were in fear of your life. Keep telling this to anyone who interviews you. Always state clearly that you feared for your life.
The above is only helpful if have you time to access the situation and take control. It does no good if someone jumps you and everything happens instantly. In that situation you must do whatever it takes to save yourself.
Like the old saying goes. I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

edit to add: You cannot use defensive weapons unless the perp is actually trying to harm you or is actually coming after you even after you warned them to back down. You cannot harm them just because they look dangerous.

I don't know Virginia's specific self-defense laws, but IIRC, VA is one of the "better" states in terms of it's overall attitude twoards armed self-defense.

It's primarily gun-oriented, but this site also touches on tazers, knives, and pepper-spray, it's an excelent resource. www.packing.org

Also, don't you have a disability or limited mobility issue of some sort? (forgive me if I have you confused with someone else...) I thought I recalled reading some mention of limited mobility on your part in some earlier cafe threads. If you do have a disability, IMO, and it is only IMO, IANAL YMMV etc. etc. the legal threshold for justifiable self defense would be lower in your case. Your ability to resist an attacker with bodily force alone and unaided by any weapon is limited, as is your ability to retreat from danger.

Generaly speaking while all states vary, and the ultimate determination if an act was justifiable self-defense lies with the local District Attorney, the general standard is the "reasonable man". That means in the situation said "reasonable man" would be in fear for his life, or grevious bodily harm.

You are somewhat correct that you do have to wait for an attack or threatening behavior to actualy happen, as you and LifeNRA say, you can't just pepper spray someone for looking like a thug, and giving you a dirty look. However, if that same thug were to verbaly threaten you with harm, demand money etc. but not actualy rush you or attack, you may well still be justified in pepper spraying him, etc. That is where the dispairty in threat comes in. A 250 lb. body builder making such threats to a disabled person, a woman, or the elderly is greater justification for self defense, than say, the same verbal threats from an unarmed eight year old juvenile delinquent.

Every situation is unique, but with some research on your Virginia state laws, you can come up with a ball-park idea of what you can and can't do in your own defense. I strongly recomend you read up on www.packing.org 's section on Virginia.

i hate thugs and people who comit crime.i wish i was in charge they would never get out of prison

cobb said:

I was thinking about getting mace, pepper, spray, tear gas, taser/stun gun, etc, but had a concern. When do you use it? If you cant shoot first, then how does it detur a crimnal act? Do you walk with it in your hand in plain view?

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First check the local laws and see what you're allowed to carry. Here in NYC, everything on that list would be illegal, as would the folding knife you carry. Hopefully the local politicians where you live are a little less paranoid about letting the average citizen defend themselves. After that, I've found the best thing is to just avoid getting too close to anyone who looks suspicious. Distance is really the best weapon. It's impossible to be jumped by surprise if you keep your distance from any people who give you bad vibes.

Or you could move to Texas where you can shoot and kill the kids trying to steal your car stereo and not even get arrested.

I've carried a gun for quite some time and my first advice would be to start making planned, decisive moves at night. Don't drive into place and stay in your car for several minutes while getting your things together - try to have everything situated so you can be out of your car in 15 seconds after shutting the engine off.

Of course, always stay alert. Look at everything as you drive or walk into an area. Goes without saying, but worth mentioning.

I haven't lost ANY sleep over it, and I live in a very comfortable area, but being a gun carrier, my biggest fear is having an altercation that forces the draw of my weapon, then is de-escalating to where I don't need to use it, and the bad guy gets away before police can show up. Lots of negative possibilities could come out of that situation. Having said that, I would never, EVER tell anyone I was armed. When they need to know it, they'll be able to figure it out pretty quickly.

I'm of the opinion that I won't draw until I am ready to shoot and when I draw, I WILL shoot unless in the 1 second it takes me to pull my shirt up, draw and shoot, the bad guy has turned away from me.

The other often-cited advice is to shoot to stop. That means you don't just shoot once. But you more that likely don't shoot until your gun is empty. I'd plan on putting three to five rounds in him if I felt my life was in harm's way. And with three to five rounds, even if only one or two are well-placed, there's a very decent chance he won't see tomorrow and from a legal stand-point, that is a good thing... or at least a lot better than a wounded man telling his sob story to the jury that is judging YOU.

move......

Unfortunatley, it seems the crimminals have all the rights. The lawyers like it that way.

BS! It's BECAUSE of lawyers that is IS this way!

What would we have if 1100 Lawyers were on a cruise and the ship sank with all hands?




A VERY good start!

Now I am NOT trying to paint all lawyers with the same brush! But for every good one there must be 30 or more stinkers!

cratz2 said:

Or you could move to Texas where you can shoot and kill the kids trying to steal your car stereo and not even get arrested.

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Maybe, more so at night. As was stressed by a CHL instructor though, it does not mean you can't find yourself in Civil Court over it. Also was stressed that it's easier to talk tough than it might be to do it and live with it. Of course if you go out to make a citizens arrest with a firearm while the "kids" are stealing your stereo and they attempt to harm you...

I don't believe that the legal punishment for stealing car stereos should be death, but the victims should have the right to defend their property.

Oh, don't get me wrong... I seriously doubt I could ever shoot someone to defend property only (never say never though... if I was in a disaster area, I'd do whatever was needed to defend my family and that includes keeping OUR water and food for us)

I was just citing a specific case I recall in Texas where a guy heard something outside his apartment, went out to investigate (with his gun in had since his truck had been previously broken into) and there were three kids, he shot two and killed one as I recall. Wasn't arrested.

Anyone can be sued for anything as long as you can find the right lawyer to take the case but the biggest risk if you did ever shoot would be if the other guy really had ZERO arrests and ZERO convictions for anything related to the crime at hand. Common sense and history tells us this is unlikely.

Still, it's a tricky situation... LOTS of money can be lost while properly and legally defending yourself. My mom worked in law pretty much her entire working life and the stories she can tell... Pshew...

Thanks, I know advice is the last thing you should get off the internet, but its a start.

Yes, I am disabled from a muscular disease. I use to use a wheelchair for 9 years and still have vision problem. THe down side is, I am 6 foot 3, 298 pounds. I generally scare others, men and women. Ive scared the bosses daughter twice on one day, the son and a few nurses at the nursing home my mother is currently living at.

The folding knife I carry is a 6 inch buck. Its from my disabled days to open packages, mail, or cut away the undies when I crap my pants, etc.

I thought it would be some defense to a loose or wild dog. Still, without the wheelchair maybe a good defense to a loose or wild dog. I could probility do more damage with my hands/feet or keys to a person.

My main concern is, someone comes up behind, 10 feet away, says something to the effect, give me all your money, dont turn around, blah, blah, blah. or They approach me, ask for a ride, then want my money or arguing or take me as a hostage to drive them some where.

Sort of wearing a gun on a visable holster, whats a good visible deturance? Dressing in plad? Using grocery bags to carry your stuff? Carrying a stun gun with the thing arcing in my hand(targets stun gun/light comes to mind)? Ive seen others carry sticks with them or walk with dogs. I am not much of an animal person and the apartment only allows small dogs. WHat do I do with the dog once I get to work would be other concerns.

Thanks

Although open carry of a firearm (most anyway) is legal in Virginia, I would suggest against it. If I knew you had a gun I would plan to get it away from you. You will also stick out like a sore thumb in a crowd. People will point at you, and you may get stopped and questioned by police. You don't want to bring attention to yourself. That is the importance of concealed carry. Surprise is in your side.

You mentioned vision problems. If you can not pass the firearm test required for a concealed carry permit then don't consider carrying a gun around in public.

I take it you are not in a wheel chair anymore. How ambulatory are you? Can you swing a club? Cold Steel makes a few walking sticks that might interest you. You might also make use of them as a legitimate walking aid.

The best way to prevent yourself from being a target is not to act like one. Don't put yourself in a situation where you are likely to be victimized. Be aware of your surroundings. Listen to the little voice inside your head. If it says cross the street to avoid that group of young thugs then cross the street. Don't go in the bad neighborhoods, even if it means a shorter walk to the bus stop. Don't wear headphones when you walk around, listen to what is going on around you. Limit the amount of times you have to be out at night.

When can you act? As others have said, when you fear for your life you may act in the preservation of your life. Virginia is not one of those states that require you to retreat from a threat, although clearly if you can safely retreat that is the best course of action. For instance, you are unlocking your door and someone comes up behind you and demands your money. You see that he is not armed, and you have the door unlocked. If you think you can retreat inside your home and get the door shut and locked without the bad guy getting in behind you than do it.

There are two basic requirements that have to be present before you can take action against an aggressor. First, they have to express their intent to do you harm. This expression can be with words, or with physical means. Second, they have to commit an overt act in furtherence of that intent. Say someone approaches and says to you "I'm gonna kick your but." Then they just stand there and make no actions that further their intent to beat you up, then you can not wack them over the head with a walking stick. But, if they take a step toward you, after declaring their intentions to harm you then you can take action to defend yourself. Both the intent and the overt act can occur at the same time, such as with a physical attack upon you. Say someone just comes over to you and starts beating on you without saying anything. The implication exists that he has the intent to harm you because that is what he is doing. Additionally, the aggressor has to have the capability to actually carry out any threat. For instance, say you were behind a secure door. A person outside said he was going to kill you and started hitting the door with his hands. He is not making any progress getting through the door, but still says he will kill you. He can not carry out the threat, so you can not pull out a gun and shoot him through the door.

Stun Guns: I have two issues with them. One, they don't work on everyone. Some people just have natural resistance, no matter what they tell you about overriding a persons nervous system. In a class of 35 of us who got hit with them there were 5 who did not go down. Two, you have to get close to use it. Might be ok as a backup defense, but I do not want to get that close to an attacker, just in case they have a knife.

Chemical or Pepper Sprays: Pepper spray generally works well, again, a certain percentage of the population will be resistant to its effects. There are other considerations with these as well, such as high winds, make them less effective. Potential to at least partially affect yourself is also high with these sprays.

Dogs: Some dogs will protect you, some won't. It is easier to predict what some dogs will do based on their breed but that is not 100%. Most bad guys probably won't be afraid of any dog that is smaller than a German Shepard or Lab size. My wife and I used to have 2 Great Danes, a gentle breed but also known for its fierce protectiveness of its owners. They were great as a visual deterrent. One would have given his all to protect us. The other was a rescue dog, and had some issues and was skittish.


If you do get in a situation where you have to defend yourself, call the police as soon as possible. If there are any other witnesses try to get them to hang around or at least get their names/phone numbers. Don't lie to the investigators, they can usually confirm your story through physical evidence. File charges against your attacker.

If you don't call the police here is what might happen. You will get attacked, then club the attacker and split his skull. You go home and don't call the police. Bad guy goes to the hospital. The ICU nurse will call the police, and they will respond. They will hear his side of the story, no doubt about how you clubbed him like a baby seal for no reason. They will come looking for you as if you were a suspect, because that is all they know is his side of the story. That, and because of the old addage that honest people don't run when they have done nothing wrong. You may get arrested, and brought to the station for questioning. You want to be the first one to call the police.

I've written a lot, and I probably haven't covered all the bases. You are on this forum, so I am assuming you have a good bright flashlight for blinding any potential attackers.

I dont have any plans to do the gun thing.

Not sure of my swing, I am working with 15lb dumbbells to give any idea. I walk with a little limp and a cane. I really dont want to get that close to someone. One reason mentioned the taser, pepper spray, not sure howlegal those are. I know the stun gun needs physical contact, but it does have a demo mode where it will arc snap and pop. I guess I could always have mace in my hand of the stun gun and when someone approaches hold it out ready to go?

That sounds pretty good. I really plan on just going and coming, not fooling around in my car before I leave or after I arrive. Just hop in, lock door, start, put in gear, slap on seat belt as rolling out of drive way.

You really don't want to telegraph your attacks. You should never pull out a stun gun, hit the button and arc it and say to the bad guy, now you go away or I will stun you. If the bad guy knows you have it they will take countermeasures to make sure you don't get a chance to use it. That goes for any weapon. Keep it hidden until you use it.

Stun guns and pepper spray are legal to carry concealed in Virginia, except in schools or on school property. I did a quick check of the Richmond city code and see nothing that would restrict them either.

It seems to me that the walking stick/weapon (no sword canes!) would be a natural first line of defense for you. You are using one anyway. If you find yourself as a victim then make yourself seem as infirmed as possible, up until the point when you strike. Your strike should be as fast and powerful as you can manage.

A stun gun concealed could be a second line of defense if they manage to get close enough for you to use it.

I have legally shot someone. I think much depends on what community you are in that affects the allowable circumstances. I got in now trouble for this but your milage may vary.

I don't really think all attorneys want to see things in the criminals favour.