Undisciplined, spoiled brat teenagers...

Jumpmaster

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So I've become an instructor in the National Guard -- we prepare the new enlistees to ship to basic training or return to AIT. The goal is to prepare them mentally and physically for the training environment they'll be in at the training installation.

Turns out, some of them don't like me too well! :) They're angry with me because I tell them to do things like...I don't know...TURN THEIR CELL PHONES OFF DURING FORMATION AND LIGHTS OUT! Or...for telling them not to move or talk at the position of attention. Or for telling them to be quiet when they come into the room talking loudly while people are trying to sleep already. You know...pretty basic things. (BTW, they are not allowed to have cell phones at all during basic training...under penalty of UCMJ. If it were up to me, it'd be the same way here -- they need to focus on training -- not flirting with their recruiter over the phone.)

If they hate me now, they will have quite the awakening once they ship to basic training. I noticed this a lot when I was in basic training and AIT. The vast majority of the 17-21 year-olds I was in training with were just the most undisciplined, spoiled brats you've ever seen -- but that was corrected during the first week or so of basic. :D

Maybe I'm old-fashioned (or just OLD) but when I misbehaved as a child, my dad beat my $## with a belt -- and I turned out fine. Never smoked, drank, touched drugs, etc. These kids get pissed over just about anything! I guess people's parents just let them get away with anything now?

Not all of them are this way...just most of them.

I think I'm just going to quit asking nicely and just start PT'ing the crap out of them from now on when they're disrespectful. That seems to be the only thing they understand. We are not drill sergeants and we do not act in that role...but I have been tasked as the "disciplinarian"...to keep them in line...

Sorry...just ranting...I'm trying to help these people and they don't seem to give a crap about anyone else but themselves.

JM-99
 

Grox

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Hey JM, I agree with you here. My parents didn't use corporal punishment on me as a child but I agree with you that today there are many teenagers who have not have grown to value moderation and humility. Many are selfish and lack common courtesy. There seems to be a moral decay evident in many of today's kids. I put this down to poor parenting and the impact that society has on today's teenagers.

To be fair to these kids, they are still growing up and still maturing. I am sure that we all remember those of our friends who were faster or slower than us to reach the enlightenment of adult thinking.

I honestly think that parenting is the problem here. If parents would raise their children in the right way, and show and teach them upright values, we would have fewer problems.
 

Saaby

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I'm 19 and just graduated High School this summer so...

Obviously I think I'm perfect of course ;) but I agree with you! It's ridiculous, and it all comes down to a lack of respect. Plain and simple.
 

cobb

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Id treat them like a DI, I hate misbehaving, rude kids.
 

Jumpmaster

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cobb said:
Id treat them like a DI, I hate misbehaving, rude kids.

Oh you don't know how badly I wish I could...In fact, they are starting a new program where National Guard soldiers can become drill sergeants...when this opportunity is a reality, I am going to apply. Not sure if I'll get it though...the slots will be limited and I'm sure there are E7's and such that will get it as a "reenlistment gift"...:rolleyes:

It's kind of complicated...sometimes, our hands are tied...these people (most of them) haven't shipped to basic training yet. We have to try to instill *some* discipline in them (where there is currently NONE) and at the same time not scare them to death making them not ship to basic...apparently, there is a big enough problem with them having signed a contract and not shipping without me scaring them...

But...I'm starting to not care -- I will be the leader and they can be the followers. I am losing my patience for disrespect and lack of adherence to rules.

There are some good ones and they do make an earnest effort to do their best and abide by the rules. Those do not have a problem with me...and I don't have a problem with them. They're good kids. But the others! Whew!

JM-99
 

Jumpmaster

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NewBie said:
Have you given them any reason to respect you?

You mean besides setting an excellent example (making sure myself and my uniform adhere to military standards and that I provide accurate information...and not talking down to them...) and not asking anything of them that I would not do or have not done myself? And my rank? No...guess not...:rolleyes:

You know what...even if they don't respect the person, they had better damn well learn to respect the rank. I cannot wait for them to ship to basic training...will the drill sergeants have given them any reason to respect them on day one? Except for a bunch of yelling?

JM-99
 
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Sigman

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Jumpmaster said:
-- we prepare the new enlistees to ship to basic training or return to AIT. JM-99
Geesh! This is just unheard of - perhaps the Army did this back in 1975 when I joined the Air Force - I don't know.

I didn't get any "prep" for basic training. I realize there are indeed necessary differences which apply to the different missions of each specific service...but I pretty much took some tests, signed up, was fortunate enough to get a guaranteed job, and then on the bus/plane to Lackland AFB, Texas.

No "transition" for us - it was all or none/night & day/adapt NOW!! I miss those days! Maybe I was raised differently than the way kids are now days. I grew up saying "yes sir, no mam, please, thank you, etc...", practiced respect & courtesy, knew I had to follow orders!!

I knew what I was getting into, a close friend of mine joined and already had me in the "frame of mind". We didn't have too many "failures" in my Flight/Squadron/Group.

I wish you the best of luck and the best of times! These kids just don't realize (yet!) that what you can do for them is save their life!!
 

jtr1962

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This thread reminds me of how I would so love to be a teacher and run my class like a drill sergeant. First day of class, I would come and mutter something like "It had to happen to me, what a bunch of sorry a$$es!" :D After that of course would be the gratutious "The first and last words out of your filthy holes will be sir, do you get me?". And of course there would be the usual "hit the deck and give me 20". It would be fun, for the whole day it lasts. I'm sure the school board would kick me right out for hurting these poor kids' self-esteem, among other things.

Imposing discipline nowadays seems to be a dying art. Parents don't want to because they want the child to like them and be their "friend". Schools don't want to for fear if they overdo it the parents will get on their backs. Small wonder the vast majority of today's graduates lack self-discipline.
 

LifeNRA

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Maybe we parents should get back to raising our children instead of working for material goods. That big house or new car will not be our legacy. Those children who we avoid raising and turn to daycares, preschools, and public schools to raise because we want to keep up with the Jones' are our legacy.

The above is not a knock on anyone who has children in daycare. I do not pretend to walk in anyone else's shoes. I am talking about those parents who work for material goods and put those goods ahead of raising their children. I guess I am just old fashioned.
 

sniper

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NewBie said:
Have you given them any reason to respect you?

Hell, yes, he has given them reason to respect him! His rank and his uniform. He has at least as much education as they do, is older, knows what he is doing, ( That's called experience.) has an assignment that he is trying to fulfill, and has likely looked into the eyes of the Doom *****, and survived. Not that any of the pimply-faced, slack jawed intellectuals he deals with would know or care. MOMMY! He YELLED at me!

The self-centered, juvenile, coddled, louts he is in charge of would make the Pope himself utter a vulgarity, a profanity, and a blasphemy, not necessarily in that order.
When I went into the service, I heard "Young Hero, give your Soul to Jesus, because your *** belongs to me!" And it did, but I made it!

Hang in there, Jumpmaster; This too, shall pass!

Thank you for your service, Sir!
 
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Jumpmaster

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sniper said:
Hang in there, Jumpmaster; This too, shall pass!

Thank you for your service, Sir!

Thanks for the thanks and the understanding, everyone! When I come home from a weekend like this, I sometimes get discouraged...it just makes me scratch my head and wonder how they got to be 17+ without someone already beating their $%% a few times with their attitude...

I am not there to be their friend, so I don't really care if they "like" me or not. You all are correct in saying that this (instilling discipline) is the first step to making sure they don't get themselves or their buddies killed in combat. So this is not a popularity contest...they can hate me if they want to as long as they start learning how to take orders that in the future may keep them alive.

JM-99
 

Sigman

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It's kind of funny looking back. At first I had to wonder why the Drill Instructor was teaching us to fold our underwear to an EXACT width of 6" and then accepting ABSOLUTELY NO MORE or NO LESS - folded EXACTLY in the manner he taught us!! This was just one of a countless list of fun things we got to think about and perform!! (beat dodging bullets, under barbed wire, crawling through mud - yes my AF squadron & flight got to do some of that fun stuff as well. It was still the "Vietnam Era"!)

"The ability to follow orders" - duh!! :ohgeez:They taught us well and we appreciated it!
 

Lightraven

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Huh, well, my mom n dad split up when I was about three years old, so I had somewhat of an attitude myself at 18-19 years old (and I still do in some respects.)

Hooking up with the Army benefitted me and society. Still, it didn't happen overnight and both the Army and I were frustrated over each other's "attitude." I realized when I threw up during my first APFT two mile run that I was thinking of myself as an "elite" without having earned it.

The best instructors respected my capabilities and didn't take themselves overly seriously. The worst were just bullies who got off on abusing people.

Hopefully, the important things--teamwork, safety, combat drills, technical competence--will win out over the less important--uniformity, shiny boots, popularity with superiors. Some of the "attitudes" will change--due to maturing, peer pressure, competitiveness, or just a sense of responsibility and not necessarily from a beating (which I was occasionally threatened with, but never received.)

The best thing the Army could do is not smack people into obedience--it doesn't help for complicated skills that many soldiers have to master--but to recognize and reward those who are doing a good job. Some losers will always stay losers. Best for the Army if they are shown the door.

By the way, I have NO problem at all with PT'ing the crap out of people. It was my favorite punishment to receive cause I knew I was getting stronger and faster the more I got.
 

KevinL

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I used to think all those complaining about "kids these days" were overreacting somewhat, but I'm starting to believe them now.

I was just having a discussion with someone twice my age (and I'm mid 20s), and he was telling me that I'm not completely off in my observations. More and more teens these days don't have the slightest sense of politeness. I was getting a drink at a fast food joint a couple of days ago, and I had six rowdy kids plow themselves down at the table next to mine - AND SIT DOWN AT MINE (each table seats 4) while completely pretending I was not there. They could have taken any set of empty tables adjacent to each other and they specifically had to choose mine. There were more than enough tables around to seat six side by side and they simply ran me off mine.

I turned to the guy next to me and told him "I'd be very glad to let you have the table, but next time, please ask first."

Unfortunately I deal with them and their kind on a daily basis, and I have never seen anywhere near close to that lack of manners, decency, and ability to get some work done. This is a big problem because many of them are entering the workforce shortly. If I was their boss.. God help me. I swore to my boss that if any of these people showed up at our doorstep, I would make *DAMN* sure they never got hired. I have never seen people this 'don't care' before. Guess what, they're made to work in teams as well. I KNOW damn well that these people will end up getting each other killed if it was a life or death situation. Nobody cares to take the initiative, nobody wants to do anything.. the list goes on.

But one thing I do believe is that the armed services are a good wake up call. Ask me how I know.. :D (though I wasn't one of the problem kids who went in - there were many far worse) some of the things I learned there would later serve me well, whether in the corporate world, or otherwise. Whether or not these people like it, very soon they are going to be *GIVEN* that responsibility and *MADE* to carry it.


PS: In all fairness, this is directed only at those creating problems. There are probably plenty more good kids out there that should not be unfairly tarred with the brush of some of their far more irresponsible peers - just as we ourselves would not want to be.
 
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Bradlee

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I'm right in that age category you're describing, and I feel the same way. , although I find it's usually only a select few who have no respect. Sadly, without *real* punishment (read spanking, physical repremendation) I don't think the next generation will grow up to be any better.

I think the real problem is in this new philosophy that a child should be punished by taking away certain privillages. Although I realize that this can sometimes work, I remember quite clearly my fellow students (when I was in elementry school) being sent to their rooms when they were bad. The problem - their rooms had TV's, Computers, Game systems, etc. Kids just don't seem to be facing real consequences for doing bad things these days, and as a result they grow up without learning from their mistakes; they still show disrespect, etc, that should have been *beaten out* when they were young. :shrug:

-Brad
 

NewBie

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NewBie said:
Have you given them any reason to respect you?

Jumpmaster said:
You mean besides setting an excellent example (making sure myself and my uniform adhere to military standards and that I provide accurate information...and not talking down to them...) and not asking anything of them that I would not do or have not done myself? And my rank? No...guess not...:rolleyes:

You know what...even if they don't respect the person, they had better damn well learn to respect the rank. I cannot wait for them to ship to basic training...will the drill sergeants have given them any reason to respect them on day one? Except for a bunch of yelling?

JM-99


That was exactly my point.

Think about this from their side of things:
So what if you uniform looks sharp, so you are a neat freak, big deal.
Respect your rank, heck even Clinton abused his position, and TV tells us cops are as crooked as heck.
Yelling, they have no idea.

I've done exactly what you are doing, 13 years ago, preparing our young men and ladies for bootcamp, as they would one day become Marines. I didn't fluff them at all, but started off showing them the Full Metal Jacket movie and we progressed from there. Then I explained to them that bootcamp was much worse, and it was my job to do everything I could to prepare them for this. I told them that I wanted them to be at the top of their class, in order that they would earn a promotion by the end of bootcamp, and that it would also mean more pay and responsibility for them. Once a week they'd come down to the office for several hours of training. Each week they'd have to memorize additional general orders, code of conduct, immediate action for the M16A2, the parts of their rifle, and many more things, just like you would in bootcamp. They were given a civilian "uniform" description they'd have to wear, as well as personal hygiene standards, and we'd have a standard formation inspection. If they failed, they'd be doing pushups, situps, etc. Then we'd march over to the local high school field in formation, with one of the senior poolies barking out the marching commands. There we'd do the typical warm-up exercises, and we'd go do formation runs around town (complete with road guards and guides who carried the guidon). Once a month, we'd take them out for treetop rope drills, confidence course, rifle simulator, live fire, tour a local unit, and bring in Marines from different MOSes to explain what they did, and to relate their experiences. A couple of times a year, we'd have field meets, with the poolies from all the stations within an RS, or basically under one entire MEPS station.

All their recruiters were there with them, to aid during the training, and participate in the event.

We even got most of the young Marines returning from bootcamp, approved to stay with us for a month. They'd participate in the above mention stuff, and often, the poolies knew them from three months before, when they'd left for bootcamp. We'd have these young Marines stand up in front of them during meetings, and let them take questions and relate their personal bootcamp stories to the poolies.

Over time, they'd start to respect themselves, each other, and especially those in uniform much more, once they understood. Their level of motivation would vastly improve, and for the first time for- some of them, someone actually cared about them- and they responded. We even had a few that would come in for a couple of hours daily, asking for more knowledge, training, etc. They even started looking out for each other at school, including helping each other out when studying for tests, at school, or even getting together to cover first-aid during lunchtime.

I'd actually been approached by teachers more than once, who were bewildered by the improvement in our poolies, as students in their classes. One teacher related to me a story about how some students were goofing off in class, and how our young poolie, all of a sudden stood up and went off on the kids, and then explained how school was important to him and the other students- and they were there to learn, and how much of a bunch of worthless dumbasses they really were, messing things up for everyone else. Then he calmly sat down. The teacher had tears over the whole thing, as she herself had often wanted to do the very same thing, but couldn't.

I even had two of my own poolies graduate as company honormen in bootcamp, as well as a few platoon honormen. We had a very low number of them return from bootcamp, and most of those were due to something unfortunate, and we'd get them recuperated, and send them back.

No, I don't agree with the fluff and treating them with kit gloves, as I saw the recruiters from other branches doing. Well, maybe for the Air Force, that might be okay there, since their basic training mainly prepares them for life in the Air Force and how to basically wear a uniform, which is an entirely different ball of wax.

Right, I have been there and done that, thats why I'd asked...and I fully understand your problem. Hopefully a few things I related will help a little in your endeavors and preparing our young men and women for preparing to serve our great Nation.

Semper Fidelis
1986-1998
 
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xochi

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Bradlee said:
The problem - their rooms had TV's, Computers, Game systems, etc.

-Brad

Personally, I believe that pop culture and the amount of time that people spend wallowing in unrealistic, marketing inspired bullshi* is the prime culprit. I also wouldn't limit this to just young people but everyone who spends more than 20 minutes a week subjecting themselves to the messages whose prime goal is manipulation of our hearts and minds. When our society is engineered by individuals with profit as their prime motivation we shouldn't be surprised when we turn out individuals who are massively self involved and undisciplined. Fortunately there are still alot of people who recognize the situation and make an effort to avoid compromising core values for the sake of 'fitting in' .
 
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