Why not more CR2-powered lights?

I'm a newbie, but getting addicted quickly (with money, or lack thereof, being my only holdback). As I surf through CPF more (damn you people for all the temptations!), I'm finding more lights I really want, mostly the small and very small ones.
Since many mfr's are going for further miniaturization, I was wondering why there aren't more lights using the smaller CR2s vs CR123s? This was prompted by my search for more info on the JIL CR2 lights. Mfr's like such Amilite who use a twistie switch (I prefer clickies) to minimize size would seemingly benefit with a CR2. Are CR2s newer to the flashlight market? If so, is this niche industry migrating towards CR2s? Or do CR2s hold less power than CR123s to drive the greater demands of the latest LEDs?
Thanks.
BTW, anyone have a link to more info on the CR2 Ion?
And is there anywhere to get CR2s for as cheap or cheaper than CR123s ($1-$1.25)?

Welcome to the CPF, jsr. I, too, wish for more CR2 choices.

Just my personal opinion but...CR2 lights, so far, have failed to light my fire because: they're as large or nearly so as CR123 types, they're expensive. The cells are more expensive, have less run time, might as well go to a AAA for less diameter.

A properly designed CR2 light could find its way into my pocket if it was only slightly larger than the cell and didn't cost a fortune.

My Arc LS/twisty does most of what the best CR2s can do plus it's got better run time. Hey, in fact, it's on my belt now.

A properly designed CR2 light will be considerably smaller than a 1x123 light. Their reduced runtime and twice the cost are negatives of this battery option (you can always get RCR2's

A few that come to mind right now:
Jil
HarryN's new light
Larry's CR2

I'm a CR2 proponent. :green: The CR2 is nominally 800 mAH vs 1300 for the 123. You can get CR2s from Battery Station (CPF Supporter) for $1.25 and I think another supporting dealer has/had them for $1. I find the run time more than satisfactory and typically get a couple of month's of daily usage from mine. Oh! Welcome to CPF!

Larry

jsr said:

...why there aren't more lights using the smaller CR2s vs CR123s? This was prompted by my search for more info on the JIL CR2 lights...

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From Eveready's technical info, their CR2 is about 68% of the volume of their CR123, but only 53% of the capacity: http://data.energizer.com/SearchResult.aspx

So it seems you take a bigger capacity hit than a size benefit.

Also a compact CR123 light can approach a CR2 light in size. For example, the CR123-powered Fire~Fly3 (pocket body version) is 65.2 mm x 20mm. By contrast a Jil CR2 1.3W (UP) is 60mm x 20mm.

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1197747&postcount=122
http://www.cones-stuff.co.uk/Jil Lite CR2 1_3W UP.htm

So the Jil is 7.98% shorter and the same diameter. In this case you take a significant capacity hit for a very small size reduction.

There are smaller non-regulated CR2 lights like the Orb RAW and Jil CR2 DD (UP), but they are unregulated.

http://www.cones-stuff.co.uk/ORB 3W RAW.htm
http://www.cones-stuff.co.uk/Jil Lite CR2 DD UP.htm

The upcoming CR2 ION is regulated, two stage switch, with supposedly good output and runtime. It's 54.7mm x 18.7mm. So in this case it is significantly smaller than the FF3 (which is one of the smallest regulated CR123 lights). However it's expensive at $145.

It appears difficult to make a regulated CR2 light sufficiently smaller than the most compact regulated CR123 light to warrant the tradeoffs. However it's not impossible, as the CR2 ION shows. http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=95844&highlight=cr2+ion

Larry

joema said:

It appears difficult to make a regulated CR2 light sufficiently smaller than the most compact regulated CR123 light to warrant the tradeoffs. However it's not impossible, as the CR2 ION shows. http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/sho...ghlight=cr2+ion

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joema, Larry's CR2 design is what inspired many of these "smaller" lights we see on CPF (FireFly, and CR ion included, IMO).

One reason is that a lot of people don't like to keep too many different kinds of battery. If all your electronic gadgets use the same batteries, you can swap them around and keep a smaller stockpile. In practice that means AA or AAA. Coin-cell lights are just about worth it because they permit really small torches. CR123s are debatable. Anything else is very much a minority choice.

Brangdon said:

One reason is that a lot of people don't like to keep too many different kinds of battery. If all your electronic gadgets use the same batteries, you can swap them around and keep a smaller stockpile. In practice that means AA or AAA. Coin-cell lights are just about worth it because they permit really small torches. CR123s are debatable. Anything else is very much a minority choice.

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I see your point and I actually shared your opinion when I joined CPF. I tried hard to keep my battery types to a minimum, standarizing to AA for a long time. However, as my lighting needs evolved, I found myself having to use other sizes. There's simply no efficient way to light a small, high-power incan from AA alkies. I had to add 123's to my list; then came 150A's. At this stage, I wouldn't hesitate to use a CR2-based light. I'm still pondering the move to full-out li-ion, but with the addition of a SF U2, I may have to take the plunge. I am, however, trying to stick to the Pila 168 size only.

Coin cells are designed for low-draw operation, and they're actually twice as expensive as CR2's. Don't they have lower capacity too? I'd much rather use a AAA-based light than a coin-cell-based one. In any case, I still keep AA's for "other" electronics (radios, GPS, etc.).

At this point is there a CR2/Luxeon that's of decent quality, price, size, and actually available? This combination of attributes can be had in other cell types but CR2 lights seem to be falling short of this bullseye.

I hope CR2s are the next big thing for little lights as they'd be a good EDC size.

Me too, greenLED.

Then the HotWires needed special sizes for performance. Then I got an Orb Raw. Still my only Li-ion. T_I_N taught us a little trick with the Raw and I accidentally confirmed it. Put a primary CR2 in it. Much lower output but still very useful. Brighter/better focus than a 5mm. It will run for hours like that. I wish I could remember exactly but I believe mine was at the 18 hr mark when I found it still on. Could still easily read a watch or navigate in the dark.

I just bought a from-me-to-me Christmas present of a one of a kind Chop custom CR2 light with a POP2 sandwich and TWOJ emitter. I actually dont mind the runtime compromise and enjoy what these lights have to offer. I run my lights with rechargeables whenever possible, but otherwise I grumble but am very pleased with my JiL 1.3w up, Orb Raw U-bin, and KI that run on primaries. At the "micro" size level I'm willing to give up versatility in the form of runtime for some WOW tiny and bright effect

greenLED said:

joema, Larry's CR2 design is what inspired many of these "smaller" lights we see on CPF (FireFly, and CR ion included, IMO).

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That's a good point. In case anyone's interested, more info on Larry Lights, inc'l the CR2:

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=97749&page=1&pp=30&highlight=larry+cr2

Larry CR2 images: http://www.jtice.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=LarryCR2

There are actually quite a few CR2 lights, just seems most are very limited production custom lights, and many aren't regulated to achieve smallest possible size:

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=83812&highlight=larry+cr2

It appears size-wise, the upcoming CR2 ION will be very similar to the Larry CR2, but I don't know the details about Larry's regarding regulation, features, etc.

What was the Larry CR2 sold for when first available?

I've got five CR2 lights--the Orb Raw, the Jil DD, the Jil 1.3w, the NEOCA BL, and a KI LE. I love the small size and all of them are considerably smaller than my CR123 lights.

With the exception of the Orb Raw (12-15 min runtime), all of them have more than 1 hour runtime and provide a lot of light. The Jil DD disappears in my pocket and may just be my favorite. It has good build quality, enough light for most tasks, and fantastic runtime of around 20 hours!! (Yes, that zero is not a mistake.) You can add the Bus extension (which makes it slightly smaller that the Fenix L2P) and run it on 2 AA cells. I imagine this will make the runtime just this side of forever...

The Jil DD is a little large for a keychain that is put in your pocket (I prefer the ARC AAA for that duty as it is thinner), but the Jil DD is quite small and works well on a woman's keychain or purse. In fact, I just got three of them to give to my wife and daughters for Christmas. This way they will never be without a decent light with long runtime.

If you want to try a CR2 light, I would highly recommend that you start with a Jil DD. It is the least expensive of the five ($70 shipped), but may just be the best all-around performer. But ALL of them are nice lights and a perfect size for for EDC.

jayflash said:

At this point is there a CR2/Luxeon that's of decent quality, price, size, and actually available? This combination of attributes can be had in other cell types but CR2 lights seem to be falling short of this bullseye.

I hope CR2s are the next big thing for little lights as they'd be a good EDC size.

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Check out the Vortex KC1 (Lighthound) and JiL. KC1 is inexpensive ($39) and well rated. JiL may seem pricey, but that feeling goes away when you hold it in your hand and switch it on. Build quality is second to none, VERY solid with very good performance. I went out on a limb getting mine, and was very well rewarded for the "risk".

I can tell you first hand of the challenges related to building CR2 based lights, and selling them. One of them, as noted, is the "I prefer a cell I already use" syndrome. - I understand this one completely. At one time, I had decided to standarized on "C" cells.

As far as building the light, of the biggest ones is the optics challenge. While the CR123 and its nominal 17mm dia format plays reasonably well into similar size optics / reflectors, there are really no commercial options for the CR2 format that really work well.

AFAIK, virtually all of the small CR2 lights that actually "perform" have been made with either highly customized, or in my own case, groun- up custom optical systems to fit into the format. This is a very challenging task, and it took me over a year to achieve a respectable (not perfect by any means) beam.

In the same way that battery capacity vs size is non linear in these small sizes, the same is true of the flashlights themselves. One of the more annoying aspects is that although there is less room to work with, the physical cell tolerance are really not that tight. If I could spec just one brand or cell exactly, the dimensions could shrink.

There were some features that I wanted that just would not fit in this small package. Materials of construction and tolerance requirements take on an an entirely new level of importance. For such a simple concept, it has been a major personal challenge, even with a lot of help from other CPFrs.

The cost for me to build the "BREEZE" CR2 side x side will make them always be quite expensive. My wife has repeatedly pointed out that that I send a check along with each one I sell. As far as engineering / design cost, I just chalk that up to my learning / hobby.

HarryN said:

My wife has repeatedly pointed out that that I send a check along with each one I sell. As far as engineering / design cost, I just chalk that up to my learning / hobby.

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Funny, my wife thinks the same of my feeble attempts at selling stuff (and my modding also).

What is possible is .670"/17mm dia X 2"/50mm long light with your choice of Wayne's board and a reflector. My avator has a MM+ WO board and cut-down IMS 17mm reflector, and meets the spec. (It drops into the battery-space (other than length) of most 123 lights.) MadMax''s aren't truely regulated, but will suck a cell down to ~.8V. I get an ~hour on bright and 20-24 hours on 35 Ohm "low" with a fresh BS Cr2 cell, and change it out every couple months of multiple daily usage.

The Ion (AS advertised) is fatter and will be a flood, useful for close work. Based on my observation of the the quality of the maching on the 2 Jils I own, Jil is capable of making the light I EDC. I have a proj in the works using the R14270 that might debut in the spring. The 14270 dosen't remotely have the ampacity of a CR2! (But it's only 5/8"/15.9mm dia. )

Larry

One thing I was very surprized at was the runtime on a jil 1.3. mine will last longer as a EDC then a ARC LSH-P, and a KL-1. It seem's a good regulator
got into the jil, so maybe the next "wave" will be CR2's.

I don't know how hard the jil is being driven, but it will get pretty hot to the touch. It put's out a ton of light for it's size.

I look forward to other CR2's that are on the way. VDG

tvodrd said:

I have a proj in the works using the R14270 that might debut in the spring.

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Debut... meaning... available for purchase?