ti cub VS mclux ti

cy

Flashaholic
Joined
Dec 20, 2003
Messages
8,186
Location
USA
ti cub and mclux ti IMHO represent current state of the art for ti lights.

as you can tell from pic below, they're almost indentical in size. both are a joy to hold and use.

ti cub with side controls represents IC controlled lights. mclux ti with it's two levels represents mechanical controlled lights. neither one can claim to be better, personal preferance rules here.

ti is not the best metal for heat conductivity. ti cub scores higher for heat management purely due to ability to limit heat by selecting a power level suited for job. ti cub with UWOK, operated on high will deliver aprox. 1.1amp to luxeon and will quickly overheat.

mclux ti's TYOH operates at aprox. 500 milliamps and will get warm to hold, but not too uncomfortably so after 15+ minutes runs. I've run mclux ti as a bike light for 1+ hours runs with no heat issues.

have not operated mclux ti enough to determind economy of operation yet. wiz 2 is regulated on high and low settings. so runtime on low should be quite a few hours with R123.

ti cub is controled by PWM on lower levels and direct drive on high only. mated with a Kbin vf luxeon current is limited to aprox. 1.1amps. ti cub has proven performance in the field by a two week backpacking trip to philmont scout ranch. ti cub sips power on low, first R123 lasted for 11 days under intense use as a primary light.

ti threads will semi-size under load. mclux ti comes with some type of teflon looking film smeared deep in threads. action is pretty smooth except for last bit of travel to hit high. mclux ti's agressive cnc grooves really shines here.

threads loading is not an issue with ti cub due to side button controls. ti cubs lack of knurling means you really have to be on guard to prevent dropping light.

mclux ti due to agressive machining and ti clip is much easier to hold and handle especially with gloves. mclux ti comes out on top for ease of use in the dark. VS ti cub fumbling around in the dark trying to find the button. however after you find the button, ti cub is easier to operate. Mclux ti wins for secure handling.

performance wise you would think that ti cub with Ubin driven at 1.1amp would destroy mclux ti with TYOH driven at 500 milliamps. Any yes ti cub does indeed put out more light than mclux ti, but due to ti cub's smaller opening. peformance is very simular for both lights.

bezel strength ti cub wins for it's beefy front end. mclux ti's crenated bezel is a work of art and more importantly protects the weaker threaded bezel of mclux ti.

both lights apears to use the same reflector and sapphire lens. but ti cub has more throw due to emitter being in focus. my preference is for mclux ti's pattern of more spill. throw is way over-rated.

production numbers for ti cub is only 8 released for sale. mclux ti's production number is aprox. 35 sold so far. so you have a much better chance of actually getting a mclux ti.

both lights are a joy to hold and use! I feel really fortunate to be able to have both.

ti cub mclux ti.JPG



ti cub mclux ti 2.JPG
 
Last edited:

kukula

Enlightened
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Messages
245
Location
Long Island, NY
Nice collection of Ti lights you got there CY. I am eagerly awaiting for my first Ti light too, a Ti Chameleon :rock:
 

nekomane

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 5, 2003
Messages
1,259
Location
Tokyo
cy said:
both lights are a joy to hold and use! I feel really fortunate to be able to have both.
Yes indeed you should be, and thanks for the comparison :thumbsup:
Us normals should be able to get a kick by just looking at the pics :D
 

Dogliness

Enlightened
Joined
Jul 23, 2005
Messages
276
Location
New Mexico
cy, only a lucky few have the opportunity, and very few have the knowledge, to make the comparison you made. Thank you for a very interesting analysis.

A couple of follow up questions directed to cy or anyone else; do you observe or can you predict any different performance characteristics between the flashlights being evaluated made of titanium as compared with other metals? Also, what difference do you think that the lack of a piston drive makes in the McLux?

My guess is that the performance differences, other than weight and aesthetics, would be in heat dissipation (which I guess is a pretty big topic addressed elsewhere), and the resistance of the metal to being scratched or to losing the lustre of its finish. Any others?
 
Last edited:

Kiessling

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 26, 2002
Messages
16,140
Location
Old World
Dogliness ... here is a thread with a discussion about the thermal properties of titanium:

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=102758

You'll have to wade through the first posts though ... it is a split-off thread.

The lack of a piston in the McLuxIII-T means you don't have momentary activation. Duh!
It also means there is less mass for heat management, but this is over my head ... just read the thread and you'll know why. Funny to see how confused we all get when a new player (titanium) is introduced, and funny to see how ti-lights manage heat.

bernie
 

Anglepoise

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 4, 2004
Messages
1,554
Location
Pacific Northwest
Very nice comparison cy. Not many people will get the chance to own both lights.
And IMHO that brings up an interesting point.
Only the McGizmo light is available to purchase.
I believe, and I could be wrong so please correct me, that the other Ti light ( or it's current version) is only available via a lottery and then only to that modder,s past customers.

So for someone that wants the ruggedness of a Ti light, that can be ordered today and used tomorrow ,the McGizmo light is the ONLY option.
 
Last edited:

Paper Lawyer

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
37
Location
West Midlands, UK
Anglepoise said:
I believe, and I could be wrong so please correct me, that the other Ti light ( or it's current version) is only available via a lottery and then only to that modder,s past customers.

If you mean by "past customers" complete newbies but who indeed have also bought an Aluminium Chameleon in the recent sign up thread, yes :)
 

Bogus1

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 7, 2005
Messages
1,332
Location
Oregon
The Ti cubs are hands down much worse for heat sinking than the Mclux T since the heat sinking is virtually non existent. The stars are only pasted down; they come loose and provide poor heat sinking. It's of little matter whether you can overdrive an LED when the extra juice is just wasted because efficiencies drop due to heat. When I put the Ti cub on a Lux meter, the lux values dropped rapidly from the moment I turned the lights on. This happens with the other cubs as well since they have similar issues and all DD lights do this to some extent, but the Ti cub was dramatic in this sense.

One attribute of Ti that helped a bit in the cub was the Ti seemed to create additional resistance in the electrical path over Al. 4 cubs were checked (not by the builder) and the current to the LED was much lower than could be explained by any other reason we could come up with. This was a lucky accident for the Ti cub that otherwise would have simply been an emitter cooker if the resistance didn't keep the drive current down.

The cub does use the McR-20 as does the Mclux T, however the pasted stars don't stay centered well on the cub. To suggest that there is some benefit to the occluded bezel on the Ti cub, or any cub for that matter, makes no sense to me (other than those who like the cosmetics). Surely Ti is strong enough Ti lights don't need to have their business ends covered in metal! It also makes little sense to me to suggest running a light at twice the current with a U bin is somehow acceptable in order to get similar output of a light driven at half the current, even ignoring the intense heat issues. That is simply a waste of run time and poor design. I opened and otherwise modded the bezels for better performance and increased output up to 50% on my Ti cubs (and others). No one is going to improve on Don's lights to such an extent since they are actually engineered to begin with.

I agree the Mclux T has very impressive machining considering it's a Ti light! The cub is just turned and even then the builder stated he had trouble getting this done. I'll also agree the small side switch on the cub is very hard to find in the dark. However it's also much more difficult to operate (almost impossible for me) with insulating gloves on. I guess the jury is out on the twisty action of Ti, however my threads are already getting much smoother from use. I do miss the piston and tritium on the Mclux T, however I would have made the same choice because otherwise it would have weighed too much in my opinion.

Ti is s great metal to work with on lights if heat is managed and if the weight isn't a problem. It does have its practical applications beyond shelf queen status and it is very attractive. I took a file to one of my Ti lights and probably would have cut through an aluminum light by the time I only made a scratch in the Ti that was easily removed. Unless that durability is desired, the cost, weight and potential heat issues may not be worth it in a practical sense. As an EDC for back packing or climbing I just might carry one Ti light, however all the lights in my pack would otherwise be aluminum.

I sold my two cubs and would have purchased three Mclux Ts, except I would have felt piggish. They use the same alloy, but otherwise they are on a whole different build level.

It seems the mention of how many Ti cubs were available for sale keeps shrinking every time I hear it. As Anglepoise stated, it's refreshing to buy a light straight up from Don rather than through a convoluted approach of lotteries, additional "forums" with endless posts full of put downs for CPF members and its moderators (and even little old me). We are all adults right?
 

cy

Flashaholic
Joined
Dec 20, 2003
Messages
8,186
Location
USA
if you run ti cub at full power. ti cub will overheat in a hurry. pretty simple to control how much heat is produced by ti cub by stepping down.

I humbly disagree with your accessment that ti cub is heatsinked worst than mclux ti. my accessment is they are both aprox. same. I predict if you run both ti lights at same 500 milliamps, results would be aprox same.

yes I plan on opening up ti cub's bezel, which should have been opened up to begin with.

my bezel comments were more directed towards threaded VS std bezel. a threaded bezel like PD and HDS is always weaker than a bezel sealed from back side like ti cub and Arc LSH.

both ti lights were cleverly designed to need a minimum amount of labor to assemble.

I see use of std star in ti cub as an advantage. reflector locks down any movement. AA grease under large heat transfer area of a star. Don's new portable heatsink design in mclux ti allow change of emitter without destroying. excellent job on new heatsink!

each ti light has it's strengths and weaknesses. my comments were only meant to compare the two lights only.

I like both ti lights :D
 
Last edited:

seattlite

Enlightened
Joined
Dec 23, 2004
Messages
659
Location
PNW
cy said:
...

I like both ti lights :D

Hmmm....if you like both light equally, does this mean you MIGHT put the McLux-Ti up for sale like you did with the Ti Cub? :naughty: :devil:
 

cy

Flashaholic
Joined
Dec 20, 2003
Messages
8,186
Location
USA
to back up my assertion that ti cub and mclux ti will heatsink aprox. same when both are driven at same current.

I weighed both lights with battery removed in a scale accurate to 1/10 gram.

results:

Mclux ti = 68.6 grams
ti cub = 69.1 grams

both ti lights are within 1/2 gram of each other, have equal mass and will absorb aprox. same amount of heat. mclux ti will probably disapate heat at a slightly higher rate due to more exposed area. but for all practical purposes the same.

next up is thermal path from emitter to body. ti cub's star rests directly upon ti base using AA grease, which is connected directly to rest of body. emitter is glued by lumineds. odds you will not get any thinner/better layer.

mclux ti emitter is epoxied to a custom milled and anodized heatsink, which then nests into ti body, which then transmitts heat into rest of body. here mclux ti is at a tiny disadvantage due to heatsink's anodization insulation effect. emitter is pressed against heatsink by reflector body after epoxy is applied. so don't know which is thinner/better Don's or lumineds?

both lights have the same 20mm metal reflector resting upon emitter. so both will carry away simular amount of heat.

again for all practical purposes the same :D

gram scale.JPG
 

kukula

Enlightened
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Messages
245
Location
Long Island, NY
Having a chrome PD which I EDC, I too wanted the Ti McLux. Unfortunately Don offered it at Christmas time, a time when budget is low, at least for me:mecry: Guess ill have to end up looking at BST to see if one would be available
 

Kiessling

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 26, 2002
Messages
16,140
Location
Old World
cy, the heatsink Don uses is a relatively big aluminium heatsink that tightly sits on the ti bulkhead with thermal grease and is held down tightly with a screw ... so there is a difference in the thermal junctions between the emitter and the large al heatsink with its high pressure against the ti vs a star loosely pasted directly on ti.

This should help in cooling the emitter as the heat is easily passed to the massive al heatsink and only then transfered to the ti via a greater surface area. Helps in immediate cooling. If there are huge differences in steady state I cannot tell, provided you use the same drive current for both lights.
If you drive the LC on high it will be considerably hotter than the McLux.

bernie

LightEngine.jpg
 

CLHC

Flashaholic
Joined
Dec 25, 2004
Messages
6,001
Location
PNW|WA|USA
I've seen the Ti McLux and do have one in Flash Chrome. Really great pieces I must say. I've also seen the Cub but not in titanium. There is no doubt that these two are a collectors item for the few. My personal preference would lean towards the McLux PD. . .On Any Given Day!
 

cy

Flashaholic
Joined
Dec 20, 2003
Messages
8,186
Location
USA
agreed mclux ti's heatsink is relatively large, but no where near large as ti cub's star base.

star is loosely AA grease into place, then reflector presses star against base and locking into place. Don's excellent heatsink rests against internal shoulder of ti body and is AA greased and locked into place by a screw. actual transfer area between milled heatsink and ti shoulder is less than direct tranfer area between star and ti cub star base.

both ti lights have solid well thought out thermal paths and are aprox. equal.

again if you run ti cub on high, it will overheat in short order. if you run mclux ti at 1.1amps, it will also overheat quickly. two stage lights need to keep high at moderate currents for long runs. VS multi stage lights have advantage of inbetween settings allowing an extremely high top setting.

if both lights are ran at same 500 milliamp current, you cannot help but get simular results.
 
Last edited:

McGizmo

Flashaholic
Joined
May 1, 2002
Messages
17,290
Location
Maui
CY,
Interesting comparison and analysis. :)

I would like to add a couple comments which are either my opinion or based on facts, as I understand them.

Ti threads semi sieze under load? Do you mean that the threaded pieces are difficult to turn and this is because of the base metal or are you refering to the potential for galling?

I agree that a head that has an integral lip for window and component retension has a more robust and inherent structural advantage to a head that has a removable bezel; either internal ring, external cap or combination. I agree provided the wall thickness of the integral system has more strength than the combination of removable bezel and head section in the area in question. The head with no bezzel has one less part to be machined which is also an advantage in terms of cost and tolerance issues. A disadvantage to a rear loading head is the fact that the bore must remain constant from rear to front or it can be larger aft. The window diameter will dictate the minimum bore diameter of the entire head. This precludes any tapering in of the head behind the window or any increasing of the heads wall thickness for additional mass, fins, milled drive areas or what have you. The other aspect of a rear loading head that presents a challenge in design is that of the window seal. If the seal is outboard of the window, sufficient compression against the window needs to be applied through either a threaded retension nut behind the window or the stack of components behind the window to overcome any pressure from outside that might be encountered in use. It is also possible to put a groove into the head's wall behind the window for an O-ring and then have the rearward conponent(s) , likely the reflector, force the O-ring into the groove and window and fill any void that external pressure might force the O-ring into while breaking the seal. Any such groove though will reduce the wall thickness of the head at that point and partially negate an advantage of the rear loading design.

In general use and relatively shallow submersions, I see no issue with a rear loading head. In my most recent designs, I have placed a priority on a window seal that is improved with external pressure and I have made some sacrifices in other areas as well as added cost to the design as a result. Priorities in the McLuxIII-T were priorities I chose for a light that I wanted. :eek: I expect that this light will survivie any dive I might take it on. Since it is a twisty only, it will not come on under water by pressure activating any switch. It may well be that at some depth activating the light via the twisty mechanisism may be problematic due to the pressure on the threads. It may be that on and off activation should be done at shallower depths. This is something I just don't know but hope to find out in a couple months. I do expect no problem with depths I might reach in snorkeling. Scuba may be a different story. I want to be clear that I make no claims that the McLuxIII-T is a dive light and frankly it may be viable for night recreation or as a back up but it is by no means adequate or should it be considered as a primary dive light in any demanding dive requiring artificial illumination!!

My goals with the T were to make a light that could go with me anywhere I went and be something I could depend on regardless of the environment I found my self in. I wanted it to be an all weather, all terrain model. :D To the best of my ability, I think I was successful.

Like you, I have a sample of each of the lights you are comparing here. I might have you beat in quantity on the McLuxIII-T's! :nana: I also got a hold of a Peak Ti light. I like Ti lights!!!! :D I have a CR2 Ti twisty hiding somewhere too with a bead blasted reflector. On low, it is my reading light for travel. I think you are possibly ill having the two Ti lights you have and I reckon I am beyond hope! :green:

I am led to believe that the LC Ti will at some point be retrofitable with the new driver that has constant current with variable levels of output; the Chameleon driver. I think this would be a good upgrade for the LC Ti. If your LC Ti is putting out 1100 mA on high to the LED, with a reduced duty cycle, lower light output, you are still putting 1100 mA to the LED. I don't believe the lumen maintenance is in jeoporday like it would be with too much heat but Lumileds does state a max of 1000 mA, regardless of duty cycle and based on a junction temp of 25 C, as I recall. I am not claiming that Lumileds knows more about these LED's than "we" do, but I do give them the benefit of doubt that they might. Then again, it is Lumileds........ :rolleyes: :grin2:

This is an interesting comparison between two small run and less than typical lights made of a less than typical material. I understand the tendancy to set it up as a VS comparison and indeed consumers as well as reviewers are in a position to evaluate lights in a head to head comparison. I personally think it is tacky for a principle to engage in a comparison or discussion though at the VS level. I wanted to make some comments here about my design as well as the LC but not in the spirit of competition but rather on a less confrontational level. Whether I was successful or not is up to the reader to decide. :eek:

In reasonable use, I don't think either light will be too destructive on the LED and should they be, the LED can be replaced. Again, I would prefer the current control option in either of these lights but there is a loss in efficiency over DD when a converter is in place. Lower effeciency means more heat to deal with. 1.1 amps is too much current for anything beyond short bursts of light in these hosts, IMHO. The Wiz2x2 is a reasonably efficient driver as I understand it and it does provide buck boost and in the low 500+ mA setting used on the T, the driver is fine with the choice of either CR123 primaries or R123 Li-Ion cells. The LC-Ti will also run on either type of cell but the DD on a CR123 will fall short for many in terms of the full duty "high" output. Ironically, the LC Ti on a CR123 primary is the most efficient and coolest running package of all here! With these various considerations and alternatives, I don't think the ultimate significance amounts to any significance of import; heat from peddle to the medal aside.

I agree with CY that if you ran both lights at 500 mA, it is likely that they would both behave in a similar thermal manner. If you run them both at a very useful 20 mA of current, heat will be of no issue at all and you will have great useful light and plenty of time to work with it! :D

BTW, I didn't realize that the LC Ti used a sapphire window also. Cool! Not as transmisive as the UCL but much more durable, IMHO.

The LC Ti has multiple levels of light output and this gives the user more choices that the T's two stage. This is an advantage to be sure! I prefer the simple and straight forward access of the T's two levels over a UI required of the multi-levels available from the LC Ti but then this is a very subjective preference and in my case tempered by my ability to design and build the one. :eek: Simple design from simple mind.
 

cy

Flashaholic
Joined
Dec 20, 2003
Messages
8,186
Location
USA
don, thanks for your comments :D

thread gauling with ti to ti contact shows up under pressure. peak ti light is a royal pita to use due to smooth surface on body. you can really feeling threads grab under load.

this is where mclux ti really shines with it's excellent contours. mclux ti threads is pretty smooth except when over coming kilroy spring's final travel. mine gauls a little right at end of travel.

I've tuned my kilroy spring by reducing tension. this reduces gauling effect and reduces travel from low to high.
got mine set to activate within one notch travel.

posted this way back. I've always prefered mechanical level control VS IC controls. my EDC Li14430/CR2's three stage is also mechanically controlled.

ti cub has a planned upgrade to a regulated board soon.
don't think it will make much difference, seldom run ti cub on high setting.

no question rear loading is more costly to assemble VS threaded bezel. Arc LSH used two locking nuts. one to secure seal optic against lens/orings, another to lock light engine in place. in general a pita to work on.

like you noted threaded design does have advantages of improved water resistance with downward pressure sealing tighter. one of the most water proof designs around barbolight U-09 uses a front loading design with 5mm thick lens with two o-rings on side and top. it's bezel is thick and strong.

mclux ti's design has got to be one of the cleanest designed light anywhere. assembly time is reduced to a fraction of Arc LSH style design. using a modular heatsink allows easy upgrade to K2 or other emitters. new heatsink can be designed with different focal points for new requirements.

really like how you designed internal collar necessary to activate kilroy spring. Very clean design!

barbolight lens.JPG
 
Last edited:
Top