EDC HDS TW4

Hello CPF, first post.

I am trying to decide on an EDC light. I have $150 to spend.

My main requirement is a pocket clip that is bezel down and does not leave much or any of the light above the pocket. Other good features would be 60+ lumen, good spill, single r123, variable power.

I have used the HDS 60 which meets all requirements except the clip. I would need to make a clip if I went with HDS.

The other light I am looking at is a KL4 and single r123 combo, a TW4. The Vital Gear VB1 has a clip that looks to be perfect.

Is there a mod to make the VB1 a 2 stage?

Does someone have a picture of a HDS next to a TW4?

Is there another 60 lumen EDC with a clip similar to the VB1, for $150?

Hello Cugir Formally welcome to CPF!!!

I used to EDC a TW4 but it got too hot for me with prolonged use. I have a flat top two stage with it also. Awesome light but if you need to leave it on for 15 mins or more on high it might get too hot as most 5w small package lights will. Something to think about. I carry a U-Bin open bezel LionCub for now in a belt holster. Multiple brightness levels and is a very nice light. You can get a pocket clip for it but I don't like it. The Mclux PD has an awesome clip and two stage. Not sure if it is 60 lumens. Maybe a U-2 surefire. Good Luck

I originally edc'd a vb1 with a kl1 on it, but then I saw the TW4 and fell in love with everything but the price. As my collection has grown since then, I now edc a kl4 with an e1e body and a r123. I must say I do miss my vb1, I lent it to a co-worker who is taking his sweet time making me a light body similar to it...I mostly miss the bezel-down style of it. It's just not comfortable carrying my current light in my pocket bezel up. I will agree that it (my kl4/e1e combo) does get pretty warm after a few minutes use, but personally I don't use the light more than a few minutes at a time. So yeah, not that that helped you any, but I figured I'd give my $.02.

welcome to cpf... too late to warn you about your wallet

Personal preferance, but I'd go with Surefire TW4 combo with two stage switch. this gives long runtime and way more lumens than any HDS, including U85, which will be way more $$.

TW4 will run cheap R123 li-ion cells = guilt free lumens.
both KL4's pictured below have great tint w/near Xbin performance.

here's a pic of part of my EDC rotation, Arc LSH-P Ubin, KL4 w/CR2 body mce2s, TW4 w/mce2s and HDS

cy said:

Personal preferance, but I'd go with Surefire TW4 combo with two stage switch. this gives long runtime and way more lumens than any HDS, including U85, which will be way more $$.

Click to expand...

How bright is the KL4 LED head, run only with 1 CR123 in the SF E1E? And how do you get a 2 stage switch? That looks like a sweet and small setup.

There was an Ti HDS EDC Clip that had bezel up/down carry.

tremendo, actual output like any luxeon light will depend upon luxeon lottery.

ignore lumens ratings which don't mean much, even from surefire which is most conservative. some 5watt surefire are rated at 100 lumens, some at 85. in real life it's the individual luxeon.

the two KL4 pictured above put out 100+ lumens with close to Xbin performance. went thru aprox. 10+ L4's to find. note lowest performing 5watt will generally perform greater than highest performing 3watt like Ubin in HDS85.

when you get ahold of a high performing 5watt like these two. output difference VS Ubin is amazing.

If you prefer IC controlled light with multi-levels, then HDS may be for you. both are top quality lights. but for raw performance and value. it's hard to beat a surefire L4.

Tremendo said:

How bright is the KL4 LED head, run only with 1 CR123 in the SF E1E? And how do you get a 2 stage switch? That looks like a sweet and small setup.

Click to expand...

True, the KL4 is not officially able to run on one CR123 cell - a few will not. The voltage of a non-rechargeable CR123 cell starts a little above 3 volts, and IIRC, starts a little dimmer (dropping out of regulation) than with 2 cells (L4) in full regulation, and output drops steadily. Things are a little better with rechargeable RCR123 cells, which start at about 4.2 volts, and (if protected) shut down unexpectedly when they drop a bit under 3 volts. Rechargeables highly recommended, though.

The 2 stage tailcaps are the Aleph from the Sandwich Shoppe
http://theledguy.chainreactionweb.com/index.php?cPath=43&page=2
$45 assembled. Highly recommended, as the KL4 on full is often just too much light (as if....!), whereas a well chosen low setting will take care of 99% of your needs, stay cool, and run a long time. I think about 15 ohms is pretty good for a low resistance, giving maybe 3-4 lumens.

*Shrug* I know HDS has their lights tuned to be pretty close to the lumen rating (Soooo theres a lottery still, but you'll get 60 lumens or close to it)

Navck said:

*Shrug* I know HDS has their lights tuned to be pretty close to the lumen rating (Soooo theres a lottery still, but you'll get 60 lumens or close to it)

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with all due respect, I have not seen many actual integrating sphere results for HDS lights.

Ubin = 87- 113 lumens less 40-45% transmission loss = actual output, 113 x .6 = 67 lumens

Tbin = 67-87 lumens less 40-45% transmission loss = actual output, 87 x .6 = 52 lumens

Fenix claims 38 lumens, when it's actually closer to 25 lumens out the front end. dont' think HDS lights is immune to same rules as rest of LED lights.

Please don't mis-understand what I stating. 67 lumens is KICK A** output for a three watt luxeon light!

thanks for the photo Cy.
It shows me that if I can carry bezel down with the VB1, the diameter of the E1/VB1 switch is thinner than the HDS body.

Can I mod the VB1 to two stage?

I'd just use the flat aleph two stage but then I wouldn't get the VB1 clip.

Does Aleph make a bezel down clip?

Where can I see pics of and buy a Mclux PD? I think it's $100 too much anyway.

How hot does a single KL4 get? Hot enough to cause a burn?

Cy, how can I get a 100+ lumen KL4?



Right now the TW4 is winning, a two stage mod would seal the deal.

TW4 - smaller, brighter, better clip
HDS - variable power, good throw, protected for r123

Navck said:

There was an Ti HDS EDC Clip that had bezel up/down carry.

Click to expand...

That clip might be what saves the HDS for me.
matrixmans HDS clip thread

<---heads off to Home Depot to look at metal

cy said:

with all due respect, I have not seen many actual integrating sphere results for HDS lights.

Ubin = 87- 113 lumens less 40-45% transmission loss = actual output, 113 x .6 = 67 lumens

Tbin = 67-87 lumens less 40-45% transmission loss = actual output, 87 x .6 = 52 lumens

Fenix claims 38 lumens, when it's actually closer to 25 lumens out the front end. dont' think HDS lights is immune to same rules as rest of LED lights.

Please don't mis-understand what I stating. 67 lumens is KICK A** output for a three watt luxeon light!

Click to expand...

Actually check FLR's(Quickbeam) page. 44.3 x 1.43 = On the 60 spot. From what I know, Henry calibrates his lights, if they don't make it they're binned for whichever (Like 85 lumens, can't get to 60, picked as a B/U60, etc). You might want to check on the HDS forums, I heard him saying the "caliberated part"

Edit:I'm also going to guess a U60 should put out 59-61 somewhere since calibration insturments aren't perfect, U42s/B42s will do 41-43, some small window in there.

Navck said:

Actually check FLR's(Quickbeam) page. 44.3 x 1.43 = On the 60 spot. From what I know, Henry calibrates his lights, if they don't make it they're binned for whichever (Like 85 lumens, can't get to 60, picked as a B/U60, etc). You might want to check on the HDS forums, I heard him saying the "caliberated part"

Edit:I'm also going to guess a U60 should put out 59-61 somewhere since calibration insturments aren't perfect, U42s/B42s will do 41-43, some small window in there.

Click to expand...

with all due respect, quickbeam's most excellent measurements is not an integrating sphere. Don's is one of the few cpf'er that has personal access to an integrating sphere. if I understand correctly to properly measure output for LED specific wavelengths requires very expensive calibration standards.

to achieve 85 lumens out the front end, not output from luxeon. you would need to over-drive a overachieving Ubin (113+ lumens @ 700milliamps) at close to 1250 milliamps to gain aprox. 25% or 141 lumens X .6 = 85 lumens. at this over-driven current, luxeon would get hot indeed.

never have understood this calibration business and why most everyone seems to think that this guarantees exact lumen output ranges within 1-2 lumens.

please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. HDS vets luxeons pretty carefully, charges a huge premium for the extra costs involved and makes a very nice light. but HDS lights are not immune to laws of physics that governs everyone else.

for the record IMHO Don's lights consistantly has the highest grade luxeons. I've seen from anyone. for an example L1-PR-T 917 were putting out Ubin brightness long before anyone knew about Ubin 3watts.

_cugir said:

That clip might be what saves the HDS for me.
matrixmans HDS clip thread

<---heads off to Home Depot to look at metal

Click to expand...

I don't think they even carry Ti or any other suitable material from which to fashion your own custom clip. Mcmaster.com would be a good place to try...

And IIRC, Matrixman said it was too much of a PITA to make the clips anymore...that he may make them later but not anytime soon. If you start making them, you would have many that will want to buy them. I wouldn't...I don't really care enough about the bezel orientation but there are many others that do.

Good luck...

JM-99

Navck,

We calibrate each LED in an integrator.

Click to expand...

*Steal*
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1097781&postcount=132

Kakster,



Light out the front window. As has been discussed elsewhere, using the
emitter output - especially the way the manufactures rate it - would give you outputs that are around 30% higher.

Click to expand...

If those are true, then I guess it is coming as 60 out the window, or close enough.

Lumens are fine, lumens are our friend, but that dance line is a lotto.
with all due respect I love my KL4/VB-1x123 i tried two KL4's picked the best which was a trade off between the usual SF "green" or a whiter less bright KL-4. I used to, and still sometimes carry a "kit"..,, a VG body and a KL-1
and a Kl-4 in a film tube tied to the lanyard. both do different thing's the KL-4 is a great flood light, the KL-1 for great throw esp, for 25-30 ln's. But in mist or fog will blind you to what lie's farther out with a flood LED like the KL-4 (a well known trait of all LED's but esp floods)
The KL-1 will throw farther then the Kl-4 but doesn't give the wall of light that so impress's some. (and as I said, often usless, this is still were an incan easily win's)

I solved almost all of my needs, like light level, and beam profile that has imho almost perfect balance between spill and spot, with a simple HDS basic-60.

Four great levels, throw's as far as a KL-1, and farther then a KL-4, and with a li ion run's longer, has a better UI and protection for the li ion that will not leave you in the dark, since it's is made to step down gradually to allow you light to get out of a tight spot

Mcgizmo's need no introduction, the best stuff if you go the two stage SF E-series route.

I think a 5 lumen diff is too little to look past a great light,
and I have tried to many SF's and other's to fool myself that an intigrating sphere is going to pick what my need's are and my eyes want, it only tell's the total output not the manipulation of the light you want out front.

any just my 2 cent's and use of both nothing is perfect, but your on the right path! SF, mcgizmo, and HDS are all the best of the best. VDG

Jumpmaster said:

I don't think they even carry Ti or any other suitable material from which to fashion your own custom clip. Mcmaster.com would be a good place to try...

And IIRC, Matrixman said it was too much of a PITA to make the clips anymore...that he may make them later but not anytime soon. If you start making them, you would have many that will want to buy them. I wouldn't...I don't really care enough about the bezel orientation but there are many others that do.

Good luck...

JM-99

Click to expand...

Home Depot was a bust, nothing suitable.
The clip on my cell phone holder is almost perfect though not wide enough for HDS holes.

Bezel up or down is not such a problem, it's the amount of the light that rides above the pocket for me...... my wife called me a geek when she saw the light sticking out of my pant pocket.

HDS will have the bezel slightly above the line. (Like 1CM or so)

cy said:

welcome to cpf... too late to warn you about your wallet

Personal preferance, but I'd go with Surefire TW4 combo with two stage switch. this gives long runtime and way more lumens than any HDS, including U85, which will be way more $$.

TW4 will run cheap R123 li-ion cells = guilt free lumens.
both KL4's pictured below have great tint w/near Xbin performance.

here's a pic of part of my EDC rotation, Arc LSH-P Ubin, KL4 w/CR2 body mce2s, TW4 w/mce2s and HDS

Click to expand...

I have a couple of potentially stupid questions so I hope you will bear with me.

First. What's a TW4? Where do you get it? How long is it with a KL4? Looks like a little over 3 inches.
Second. Will a CR2 power the KL4 in regulation? How much run-time? Will the McE2S 2 stage work with this. ?

I guess I really have more than 2 questions now that I look at it.

Thanks for your help.